Valiant 837..... my gas metre is racing

[Foxyuk]

hi guys i got a valiant 837 fitted last week all new pipework and radiators , At the moment the house has no carpets etc and i have it on in the morning ang night for an hour via a siemens wiresless remote.

i went in tonight and turned it on for 5 mins and watched the metre (last 3 digits) spin like a sprinter..... it actualy went up 1/2 a unit with that time

i have the new type metre and its dated 2009.... the house temperature was 12.5 and i turned it to 17.5 its a metric unit 1 metric unit is 11.05 kwh so in 5 mins used about 6kwh


where do i start because somethings not right????

can it be a fauly gas meter?
faulty boiler?

At present im staying at relations until the house is refurbed and my relations use 2 units a day gas and house is roasting ........

help!!!

 

[Simon F]

as the house is cold the boiler will be working at full rate. fire the boiler up, take a reading, time for 120 seconds take a second reading. deduct the first from the second to give an accurate result post the reading and someone will be able to tell you if this is a problem or not

 

[Foxyuk]

ok thanks not at house till tomorrow am.... so u saying time 2 mins take reading then another 2 mins without touching then see if anything different? based on my calcs its 90kwh which totally not on ....

 

[Simon F]

on a metric meter the gas rate is calculated based on the amount of gas used in a two minute period, this is with the appliance working at maximum.
you say it was only fitted last week, did the fitter not gas rate the appliance? if you have concerns give him a call

 

[CES]

What are your meter readings?

 

[Foxyuk]

What are your meter readings?

ok here we go--- fitted 30/12 reading 8240
7/1 reading 8328 thats set 6.30am to 8.30am, 4.30 to 10pm

equates to 88 units in 8 days based on when took reading..... 11 units a day

8/1- 8331.375 and that was it on only 630am to 830am

since 8th its been on the setting to come on if falls below 5 degrees...... when i went uo today it was sitting at 8343.100 mind you wife was in for 20 mins last night and turned heating on and tep not fallen below 5 degrees

toinght i turned on at 6.03pm it was 8343.100 and by 6.08pm it was 8343.780

its now set back to kicking in if below 5 degrees

 

[REDSAW]

in the back of the instruction manual, there is a commisioning report.
what has the installer recorded for the gas in the entry?.

 

[Foxyuk]

in the back of the instruction manual, there is a commisioning report.
what has the installer recorded for the gas in the entry?.

hi there its not filled in yet he is due out tomorrow to fit gas hob.... what do i need to be asking him too do?

 

[CES]

I think there something dodgy going on. According to your last two readings there was a difference of 0.680m3 in 5 minutes, calculating this for 2 mins would be .272m3
HI would be 0.272 x 321 = 87kW, GR would be approx 8m3/hr therefore its double what you would expect from this boiler.
I would be on the phone to the installer. Check to see if the Benchmark (commissioning report) is filled in at the back of the manual (as Redsaw has said), if its not then get the installer back as he hasnt commissioned the appliance to the manufacturers instructions and your warranty would be void as the benchmark is required to validate it.

 

[Foxyuk]

I think there something dodgy going on. According to your last two readings there was a difference of 0.680m3 in 5 minutes, calculating this for 2 mins would be .272m3
HI would be 0.272 x 321 = 87kW, GR would be approx 8m3/hr therefore its double what you would expect from this boiler.
I would be on the phone to the installer. Check to see if the Benchmark (commissioning report) is filled in at the back of the manual (as Redsaw has said), if its not then get the installer back as he hasnt commissioned the appliance to the manufacturers instructions and your warranty would be void as the benchmark is required to validate it.

just spoke to heating engineers he said there is no leak and boiler has been commisioned and checked out and hes still to fill in the paperwork.he said the boiler is a 37kwh so its impossible to burn more than that.......

i have contacted the gas network to check for a leak... then i will report the engineers commision report on here then it will be npower to check meter...

All i get is dont worry ..... i m worrying a full new systen and canny afford to turn it on

 

[SimonJohns]

just spoke to heating engineers he said there is no leak and boiler has been commisioned and checked out and hes still to fill in the paperwork.he said the boiler is a 37kwh so its impossible to burn more than that.......

i have contacted the gas network to check for a leak... then i will report the engineers commision report on here then it will be npower to check meter...

All i get is dont worry ..... i m worrying a full new systen and canny afford to turn it on

What other gas appliances do you have in your home?

 

[SimonJohns]

Just out of curiosity. I've been doing some maths

I would say the boiler is working at 26kw

Do you have a round dial on your meter. Looks a bit like a clock?

 

[Foxyuk]

What other gas appliances do you have in your home?

none so far

 

[Foxyuk]

Just out of curiosity. I've been doing some maths

I would say the boiler is working at 26kw

Do you have a round dial on your meter. Looks a bit like a clock?

no mine was fitted in 2009 its large plastic thing with 8 numbers, 3 being after the decimal point

 

[Mbear]

no mine was fitted in 2009 its large plastic thing with 8 numbers, 3 being after the decimal point

Can u do a gas rate check and we can calculate it for u?

Get a stopwatch, turn on the hot water tap, start the stop watch whilst noting the last 3 digits, then 120secs later note down the last 3 digits. It u get us they no.s then we can do the calc for u. This will give a correct gas rate reading. Basically it should be slightly less than the kw rating on the data badge. Is if 37kw boiler then it'll usually gas rate at between 32 and 36kw

 

[CES]

Foxy, Do an accurate recording of readings using a stopwatch and 2 mins apart, according to your last two readings (after a bit of interpolation) it would appear to be burning double its max rate of 4m3/hr which isn't right. In order to confirm what is actually happening these two readings need to be as accurate as possible.
As for saying that everything will be ok, don't take the installers word for it until he has given you all the paperwork and filled in the Benchmark.

 

[Foxyuk]

Foxy, Do an accurate recording of readings using a stopwatch and 2 mins apart, according to your last two readings (after a bit of interpolation) it would appear to be burning double its max rate of 4m3/hr which isn't right. In order to confirm what is actually happening these two readings need to be as accurate as possible.
As for saying that everything will be ok, don't take the installers word for it until he has given you all the paperwork and filled in the Benchmark.

ok thanks.... just been to house there is no gas leak as scottish network been out , he did point out that maybe the boiler needs ranged for size of house etc.... im in a 2.3 bed bungalow original, 7 radiators 92 sqm in total..... i will do the water test tomorrow morning and report ......

hey ces !!! fancy a beer at mine not far away from me :svengo:....

 

[doitmyself]

scottish network been out , he did point out that maybe the boiler needs ranged for size of house etc.... im in a 2.3 bed bungalow original, 7 radiators 92 sqm in total

That's a valid point. An 837 has a heating output of 28kW, which is much more than a typical 2/3 bed bungalow will require. Also, seven rads will not add up to any more than 14 kW.

Who decided that you needed a 37kW boiler - you or the installer?

Did the installer measure the incoming cold water flow rate?

Use Whole House Boiler Size Calculator to find out your heating requirement (set the Domestic Hot Water Allowance to 0 as you have a combi boiler). Then get the installer to range-rate the boiler to slightly more than this.

 

[Deleted member 32524]

Why not get him to show you how to gas rate and what the readings are.

 

[doitmyself]

Just out of curiosity. I've been doing some maths

I would say the boiler is working at 26kw

Please may we see your calculation?

 

[SimonJohns]

Please may we see your calculation?

Treat your answers as imperial

 

[armourer]

Range rate the boiler, It may not need the full output?

 

[justalex81]

boiler fitted is an ecotec plus 837 by the sounds of it. This boiler does not require range rating as it modulates from 5kw. As this is a combi boiler i'd guess that the op wanted a high output of hot water (837 offers approx 15L/m), and is the reason why an 837 was chosen. Your engineer should have gas rated the appliance as part of commisioning and should have picked up on any anomalies. If the calculations are correct then something is not right.

Get your engineer to check pressure at meter when appliance is running. could be a fault with the regulator on the meter.

 

[Foxyuk]

boiler fitted is an ecotec plus 837 by the sounds of it. This boiler does not require range rating as it modulates from 5kw. As this is a combi boiler i'd guess that the op wanted a high output of hot water (837 offers approx 15L/m), and is the reason why an 837 was chosen. Your engineer should have gas rated the appliance as part of commisioning and should have picked up on any anomalies. If the calculations are correct then something is not right.

Get your engineer to check pressure at meter when appliance is running. could be a fault with the regulator on the meter.

hi there not been up to do the test as suggested previously ie run hot water for 1 minute then post a reading..... also been told to turn heating on for 2 mins take a reading then straight away time the next 2 mins and post figs here.


had the gas board checking metet for leaks and house area nothing, he said unlikely meter fauly ... the engineer went out yesterday to fit hob and said that its self modulating as you said and u should not touch anything. at moment my bath is getting installed so he said until thats done you cant do a full test etc is that correct??

when you say check pressure at meter when running what do you mean?

 

[peteheat]

Hi,

Why did you give the job to that man?

It is clear that you don't trust him questioning his work before the job is presented to you as completed.

I know if I was him and the Gas Board was called in before I was finished you would be looking for another contractor!

If the contractor is registered you have a load of consumer rights to fall back on, if you are using an apprentice, diy or unregistered contractor (which is how this thread appears to me) now you know the benefit of using registered contractors.

 

[Foxyuk]

Hi,

Why did you give the job to that man?

It is clear that you don't trust him questioning his work before the job is presented to you as completed.

I know if I was him and the Gas Board was called in before I was finished you would be looking for another contractor!

If the contractor is registered you have a load of consumer rights to fall back on, if you are using an apprentice, diy or unregistered contractor (which is how this thread appears to me) now you know the benefit of using registered contractors.

he is gas safe registered and used to work for british gas... did i say i dont trust him???????????.. im also getting the boiler scrappage scheme so it is not a homer or job on the side....im questioning it because the meter is shooting round..... what would you do?????? wait till the bill come in and then worry about it?

 

[Foxyuk]

boiler fitted is an ecotec plus 837 by the sounds of it. This boiler does not require range rating as it modulates from 5kw. As this is a combi boiler i'd guess that the op wanted a high output of hot water (837 offers approx 15L/m), and is the reason why an 837 was chosen. Your engineer should have gas rated the appliance as part of commisioning and should have picked up on any anomalies. If the calculations are correct then something is not right.

Get your engineer to check pressure at meter when appliance is running. could be a fault with the regulator on the meter.

correct i wanted the bigger boiler for water flow... etc and putting in a thermostatic shower. i previously had a vokera 28kw in last house and took ages to fill bath etc

 

[justalex81]

actually all you have to do is push 2 buttons on that boiler to put it into high fire (getting it to operate at maximum capacity) and test it. Also you only need a tap capable of delivering more than 15l of water a minute which a kitchen tap would do easily.

Actually this is all a bit pointless. get your engineer to test it NOW. If he has issue with doing it then he knows something is wrong and is trying to avoid the subject. Ask him to gas rate it and give us the figures. It's quite simple, if it doesn't add up then there is a fault and it needs fixing!!!!!!

 

[doitmyself]

boiler fitted is an ecotec plus 837 by the sounds of it. This boiler does not require range rating as it modulates from 5kw.

That would be fine if the boiler started off at minimum output and then ramped up if necessary. But it doesn't, it starts at max output and then reduces. If the boiler's max output is considerably more than the radiators can dissipate, it will cycle. In extreme cases, where the boiler's minimum output is more than the rads, the average flow temperature will be very low.

The 837 modulates between 12kW and 28kW so, as the OP has no more than about 14kW of rads, there is a considerable likelihood that the boiler is massively oversized.

The OP needs to use the calculator I gave the link for to verify his heating requirement

As this is a combi boiler i'd guess that the op wanted a high output of hot water (837 offers approx 15L/m), and is the reason why an 837 was chosen.

It will provide 15l/min IF the incoming main can deliver 15l/min. If not, all you will get is hotter water.

 

[peteheat]

he is gas safe registered and used to work for british gas... did i say i dont trust him???????????.. im also getting the boiler scrappage scheme so it is not a homer or job on the side....im questioning it because the meter is shooting round..... what would you do?????? wait till the bill come in and then worry about it?

Hi,

I would let the contractor know I was concerned about what I had seen at the meter and ask him to explain to me in plain language why this was happening.

Honestly I would have had the heat loss / load calculations carried out before I even bought the house to ensure I could afford to heat and maintain it.

It appears to me that you have nothing to worry about because you are looking at readings for a building site where the boiler is set for frost protection and turned up to suit the comfort levels for short term visitors so the system is not getting up to any meaningful long term temperature.

When you move in the house will be sealed against the elements and will / should have a fairly stable temperature maintained for example you will not be trying to heat from 5 degrees even the furniture will be holding some heat for you.

At the moment your boiler is working at full output for long periods every time it is switched on trying to get the temperature up in what from your description is a building site not a home.

 

[Foxyuk]

That would be fine if the boiler started off at minimum output and then ramped up if necessary. But it doesn't, it starts at max output and then reduces. If the boiler's max output is considerably more than the radiators can dissipate, it will cycle. In extreme cases, where the boiler's minimum output is more than the rads, the average flow temperature will be very low.

The 837 modulates between 12kW and 28kW so, as the OP has no more than about 14kW of rads, there is a considerable likelihood that the boiler is massively oversized.

The OP needs to use the calculator I gave the link for to verify his heating requirement


It will provide 15l/min IF the incoming main can deliver 15l/min. If not, all you will get is hotter water.

will do calculator tomorrow and post results here.... until i have the benchmark and the commsioned figures from him as well it may shed light.... i know its oversized however its meant to self modulate itself...... its quite frustrating because bum a prev poster says im questioning his work but do i have an option?

 

[Foxyuk]

Hi,

I would let the contractor know I was concerned about what I had seen at the meter and ask him to explain to me in plain language why this was happening.

Honestly I would have had the heat loss / load calculations carried out before I even bought the house to ensure I could afford to heat and maintain it.

It appears to me that you have nothing to worry about because you are looking at readings for a building site where the boiler is set for frost protection and turned up to suit the comfort levels for short term visitors so the system is not getting up to any meaningful long term temperature.

When you move in the house will be sealed against the elements and will / should have a fairly stable temperature maintained for example you will not be trying to heat from 5 degrees even the furniture will be holding some heat for you.

At the moment your boiler is working at full output for long periods every time it is switched on trying to get the temperature up in what from your description is a building site not a home.

at the stage of doors being fitted at moment there is no carpets etc anywhere also so you maybe correct... the joiner has the heating on when they go in additionaly when i do put it on it reaches warm very quickly

 

[peteheat]

at the stage of doors being fitted at moment there is no carpets etc anywhere also so you maybe correct... the joiner has the heating on when they go in additionaly when i do put it on it reaches warm very quickly

Hi,

Sorry to appear so abrupt just that a customer arriving in to me with part information is a pet hate of mine.

That said your contractor might do well to take a few minutes to listen to his customers questions because it is so easy to explain why some things are happening when physically on the job site with the customer.

As a consumer myself I am fully aware how stressful home improvements can be and always make it a point to let my customers know they can ask any question related to the job in fact I tell them the only silly question is the one they don't ask (silly is more diplomatic than stupid).

I hope everything works out for you.

 

[Foxyuk]

hi guys got some data for you..

Ok done the hot water test.
.257 was reading before start
.311 was after 1 minute
.368 was after 2 mins

heating test,.... the heating had been off 30 mins so not total cold.... room temp was 14 degrees so advanced to 20

reading 08370.371
1 min .398
2 min .442
3 min .489
4 min .534
5 min .580

when i went in house the heating was on yet it was outwith the set times, heating guy says that if the boiler gets cold it will kick in. i checked the setting on the boiler and displays shows 33 degrees on front.

i checked the ch output by info button and plus and it shows 28kw . i believe its meant to self regulate however others have mentioned to manually change to 16 approx is this correct ... touched nothing else

 

[GQuigley67]

that has came out as 35kw for me, seems overgassed.

 

[CES]

Your boiler is running at 35kW when on HW, and 22kW when on heating according to your latest readings. All is within spec.

 

[GQuigley67]

sorry just noticed its a 837, seems fine

 

[tamz]

35kw when on for hw and 26kw averaged over the 5 mins for the heating.
Don't have any info on this boiler to hand and i can't be bothered to look it up but if it is a 37kw 3.33m3/hr is slightly low on the water side but your boiler has modulated over the 2 minutes as the readings change so your flow rate might be low. Heating is about right.

Leave it to your gas man to check correctly and stop worrying.

 

[Foxyuk]

hi guys for the record i took reading last night of 8357-921 at 4.30pm at 1pm today it was 8370- 257 the heating was set for an ohur last night and an hour today it seems to kick in when it suits itself also when boiler wants to..... the heating engineer is ecxplaining nothing apart from saying ""relax""

sooner i get the commision report completed etc this will be proof of pudding mind u suppose he could put anything into the book... its good to see that the posters above are local to me....:yes:

 

[Rickster123]

Was it you who asked for the 837 to be fitted? It's massively over sized for your home. The reading sound about right to me. And if that's the case will you be saying sorry to the installer for questioning his ability??

 

[GQuigley67]

im a company based in the south side of Glasgow, but seriously you do need to relax and chill, the boiler has built in frost protection which will kick in if the house drops below 4 degrees

 

[Mbear]

This thread should be re-named "no help reqd,my gas meter is doing nothing wrong"

My calcs work out at 32.2kw net. Which IMO is bob on. Maybe running a bath tap or large shower tap may make the readings slightly higher but that is to be expected.

Nothing to see here !

 

[Foxyuk]

Was it you who asked for the 837 to be fitted? It's massively over sized for your home. The reading sound about right to me. And if that's the case will you be saying sorry to the installer for questioning his ability??

i asked for it as we may extend in the future, however i knew buy buying this you could reduce the ch output, i called valiant and they suggested changing output for heaters to 15 or 16kw based on my house size ( 92 m 2 and a total of 7 radiators 2 of these are in a small bathroom and a kitchen)

i have not touched any setting but checked as per prev quote and its at 28kw at the boiler setting, its meant to regulate however obviously is not... should i ask heat eng to change ot to lower output manually or?

 

[Rickster123]

You can't judge it yet as you have no carpets, furniture etc in the house. It needs to be under normal conditions to judge it. But what I would say is that people are obsessed with getting a huge output combi and then don't understand why it uses so much gas?!:mad2:

 

[stevetheplumber]

as to it cutting in at odd times is there a c in the display window?

 

[Foxyuk]

as to it cutting in at odd times is there a c in the display window?

not had chance to look time i found the key for the cellar where boiler was it was off again.... will have look when up tomorrow or later tonight,,, known my luck wont be on

 

[tamz]

Your boiler also has a hw preheat function (called warmstart). This keeps the heat exchanger warm at all times so even if the heating is off and no hot water is being run the boiler will light every now and then to keep this water up to temperature. If this is active there will be a C showing in the display just under the temperature display.

To deactivate this turn the HW temperature dial all the way down, the C should disappear then turn it up to about halfway.

 

[Foxyuk]

Your boiler also has a hw preheat function (called warmstart). This keeps the heat exchanger warm at all times so even if the heating is off and no hot water is being run the boiler will light every now and then to keep this water up to temperature. If this is active there will be a C showing in the display just under the temperature display.

To deactivate this turn the HW temperature dial all the way down, the C should disappear then turn it up to about halfway.

thanks

will do that tomorrow im sure when i looked today the toggle wheel for the water and heating were both at the highest in addition the water im sure was 33 or 35 degrees showing in display i will adjust tomorrow

 

[doitmyself]

Where is the result of using Whole House Boiler Size Calculator which you said you would post two days ago?

The installer will probably say there is no need to turn the output down as the boiler is modulating. Do it yourself! The instructions are in the Installation Manual, para 5.11.

 

[peteheat]

Where is the result of using Whole House Boiler Size Calculator which you said you would post two days ago?

The installer will probably say there is no need to turn the output down as the boiler is modulating. Do it yourself! The instructions are in the Installation Manual, para 5.11.

Seriously if I were you and wanted that job completed I would not touch one setting on that boiler until after the job was finished and signed off, at that stage it's yours to do as you wish with and any mistakes you make can be fixed by the many installers around your area.

I fully agree with your installer "Relax" you don't need to know every little detail that is why you employ a professional, at this stage you are not heating a house but a building site with different people coming and going some with their own heat requirements.

I know if I was your installer and came across this thread and recognised the job and client as one of mine you would be looking for another installer to finish the job, while they may not post it most others would do the same, also if called to complete a job that appears to have been professionally carried out then abandoned you would be paying around three times the normal rate.

Please for your own sake stand back a little and let the man do his job!