Pressure Test Q's

[Maitri]

Hi I have a bit of a contd saga and I am very appreciative of the help I have been offered on this forum. I live in a new build 2 1/2 years old plumbing across the estate has been a disaster. Builder had to re-plumb the first house sold on the estate because there was a leak that his new plumber (old plumber left the job in the middle of the build because he hadn't been paid he cut radiators off walls etc), said he couldn't find therefore it was "cheaper and easier to re-plumb" !! As we all have the same plumbing / heating this is, to say the least, somewhat worrying especially when we have all had endless plumbing /heating problems. Anyway my question is, I have been told that the system was never pressure tested before it was hooked up to the supply and the ceilings and floors were already finished !! When the system (that is across the estate) was hooked up it leaked like a sieve. Having pushed the NHBC hard they have agreed to come in and pressure test the central heating (not the plumbing as a whole). They have told the builder to fix leaks in radiators and then get a 'specialist' in to pressure test the heating system. My questions are:
1. what is defined as a 'specialist' in relation to pressure testing ?

2. what will this prove? The house that was re-plumbed was losing pressure in their boiler and the plumber could not track a leak. We have Chinese Ginde Pert-al-Pert pipe (plastic /aluminium / plastic) can this pipe drip from any joint below floor level without ever really showing any signs of leaking beyond boiler pressure dropping? There is no access to joints and builders new plumber said he had no idea where the joints were and couldn't even make sense of the way the pipes run which it why it was easier to re-plumb. I guess what I am trying to say is that if a pressure test was done, unless there was a very obvious BURST could the pressure test cause a leak that wouldn't be detectable immediately ? I am also worried about pipes bursting, is that a possibility, fittings flying off etc ? I wonder who would then be liable for the repair, I have oak floors fitted.

3. The builder now has to try and repair leaking radiators but how? Last year he attemped to repair leaks (the Ginde pipe below floor level is connected to the radiators using Ginde pipe not copper). We know the plumber pulled up excess pipe last year and attempted to re-fit, but the radiatores are leaking again. The radiators where he could not pull up pipe he fitted 3 different bits of pipe including a bit of copper (I'll try to attach pics) and it looks REALLY REALLY ugly. So what are the builders/plumbers options in repairing the radiators?

4. how much more work would it be for the 'specialist' to pressure test the plumbing whilst he is here? Again what happens if there are leaks and the joints below floor level are not accessible or even traceable!?

5. When Wessex Water called they said that WRAS Regulations state that all joints below floor level should be accessible and spoke about 'manifolds'. Obviously the joints not being accessible led to the builder having to re-plumb the property (obviously something everyone on the estate is not happy about having to accept responsiblity for), have we got a case against the builder if joints are not accessible? Our insurer Domestic & General said they would not offer insurance on plumbing that is not easily accessible.

6. Part of my contd saga relates to a boiler that D&G refused to repair and told me to return to the builder, as they believed it had not been commissioned from new as the hot water heat exchange was full of swarf and sludge. The boiler was just over 2 years old at the time. Is it possible for a 2 year old boiler to contd to work that long if it had not been commissioned from new? If the problem was not due to lack of commissioning then what else could have caused the swarf and sludge build up in a NEW system in a new build in 2 years? (No Benchmark but we are 2nd buyers. However, at least 3 other people (1st buyers) on the estate haven't got Benchmark Certificates)

7. can the repairs to the leaking radiators and the pressure test be carried out when the boiler is not working? Would the 'specialist' called to pressure test the heating system be qualified to check the contents of the main heat exchange and offer an opinion on the likely cause of the swarf and sludge? I assume if the hot water heat exchange was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" according to D&G's engineer the main heat exchange will be also? How difficult is it to get the main heat exchange out?

Sorry a lot of Q's but I am trying to work out what to do next thanks

(Re picture of the dripping pipe under the bath. This was the 3rd leak we have had in this bathroom (leaks in others too), this pipe dripped 2 1/2 litres of water a day for weeks and then just stopped. Any ideas why that would have happened. Clearly plumbing not right but why would it leak for weeks and then stop? And another Q I was going to ask. Shortly after D&G engineer had been boiler started to leak water all over the kitchen side. Boiler leaked for about a week then presumably it was empty. (We have not had hot water or heating since January ). Could the boiler have been damaged / rusted just sitting there all this time? Thanks)

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

That sounds like it Defo needs a re plumb!

A pressure test puts the circuit under pressure and it is left for a time and the pressure checked again, even a small drip will show a drop in the pressure guage indicating a leak. I would get my house replumbed like the first house. Speak to the builder about it and your insurers for advice

 

[kay-jay]

sounds like a right mess. and from the pics looks like a right mess!

the swarf and sludge in your system indicates that the pipework carcass was not flushed after installation it will be pipe burrs and flux and quite possibly plaster if pipe ends were left open.

isolation valves on the radiator tails is not good, neither is the placcy pipe bent to the point where it is kinked.

as for the pipe it is not one i have even heard of. unfortunately you will need a re-plumb however the good news is that as one house has been done it kind of indicates liability on the part of the builders for crappy plumbing. added to the fact that any plumber who knows his stuff will be able to provide a testimonial to the problems being the result of bad practices, naff products and a fundamental flouting of manufacturers instructions regarding pipework flushing prior to boiler install and commissioning. your boiler warranty will be voided by this! but again you have grounds for a claim based on the fact that standard industry procedures weren't followed.

the only thing that could complicate matters is the fact that you are not the original owner of the property! and therefore any liability may be voided based on the fact that your surveyor should have picked up this issue. and that it may be like buying a car 'sold as seen' but for your sake i hope not!

good luck

 

[WHPES]

Drfinitely complete replumb. The quality of the work is absolutely appalling. Judging by the red stain there is serious corrosion to the system anyway.

 

[Bartdude]

That looks like Uponor pipe,but you say it's Ginde,I don't know that make. If that has been used for the pipework carcass with crimped fittings then it should be fine.It's a very reliable system,much better than push fit.The leaks you have are coming from the compression nut adaptors where the plastic changes to copper,the leaks under the bath are because the inserts are being pulled at an angle,if the pipe was installed straight then it wouldn't have leaked.

It's untidy,no doubt about that, and it needs doing properly. You could lift the floor below the radiators and crimp new fittings to enable the rads to be piped up neatly.I've used loads of Uponor and am a big fan. A pressure test is a good idea though,there's nothing specialist about it,any plumber should be able to do that.

 

[Maitri]

Hi there thanks for replies, of course makes a lot of sense but NHBC are not having any of it. I am attempting to establish if something clearly breached standards from Day 1 and the builder KNEW, then why would the NHBC 2 year rule apply. Surely a breach of standards is not the same as an unnotified snag is it ? As you may or may not know the NHBC have a 2 year rule that says that the builder only remains liable after the 2 years for problems that were notified in the first 2 years. However, the NHBC then interpret that as only relating to the specific problems notified if they have not been repaired, not the root cause of the endless notification of problems with the whole plumbing and heating system across the estate.

Even though I am 2nd buyer the builder had a liability for the first 2 years and a continuing liability via the NHBC Warranty unless I was notified of problems by the vendor, in other words were alerted to a problem, which I was not and it was an executive sale otherwise I would attempt to return to the vendor who I have been told was flooded and would have clearly known about the leaking pipes etc.. He was very elderly, moved in the property from new, then found he had cancer and was gone shortly afterwards.

Not sure it is voided by surveyor, surveyors are not plumbing experts. I could also argue that I would not think about having to have a full survey on the plumbing, I lived in my last home 34 years, nobody ever had to worry about plumbing, it lasted a lifetime mostly , didn't it?

These problems are reflected across the estate and our biggest card to play is that the builder has just completed Phase 2 and has another 15 properties to sell. One assumes he has to declare(as other home sellers do) if there are any disputes.

The builder said that the boiler was in that state because I hadn't bled the radiators, which I had checked a couple of times but there wasn't any air in the system. The problems with the boilers are also reflected across the estate. The property that was re-plumbed was plumbed because the boiler kept losing pressure, ownder says that even now he can't have the boiler turned up without a pipe going. The people next door have to keep re-pressurising their boiler and bleading radiators which seems to imply a possible leak. WHPES on the forum said "the red stain there is serious corrosion to the system anyway". I assume this is because inhibitors were never added as the boiler was not commissioned, so what does this mean, does it mean the radiators would need replacing if they have been without inhibitors for 3 years ? And as already mentioned, I am concerned about what might be happening to the boiler that has just been sat there empty of water for nearly 4 months. The D&G engineer said that if the boiler had not been commissioned the swarf and sludge could have damaged parts and the life expectancy of the boiler reduced by 50% which again is extremely upsetting if that is true.

 

[WHPES]

If the system has been filled once, emptied and left like that then there will have been serious corrosion but as for how bad it is the system would need to be inspected.

Corrosion will have happened if no inhibitor was added to the system water but shouldl not be terminal.

Check the radiators for rust spots.

Swarf and sludge can be removed using chemical cleaner and powerflushing provided it has not got encrusted.

If all the work looks like your 1st photo, it is a really rough job.

 

[bengasman]

1. what is defined as a 'specialist' in relation to pressure testing ?

My definition would be: Hogwash designed to lead unsuspecting customer up the garden path.
Pressure testing is ( or should be ) a standard part of EVERY heating install and other new wet work.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

thats not plumbing thats a plastic mess

 

[REDSAW]

i will put a bet on, it will fail a pressure test.

amazing, every dog and his labourer thinks he's a 'plumber'.lol.

 

[AWheating]

looking at the pics id say the system was installed by a right donkey. Personally i would insist on a full repipe. When i worked on new build we would always pressure test and require the builder to witness the test and a signed certificate would be issued with the plumber and builders details much like a gas certificate.

Do you have the boiler benchmark book? does it indicate that chemicals were used in the heating system?

 

[bengasman]

If the whole estate is this bad, you should consider taking collective action. Make it clear to the builders that if they don't bring it up to spec real soon, they will face "class action" and be forced to pay huge legal fees on top of the undoubted outcome.

 

[fagsanbooz]

awheating is right, we always had to get 'test certificates' signed by either 'clerk of works', 'site manager', a council building controlofficer or an independant bco, which on new housing sites is normally nhbc inspector/rep. Water regulations state; all new installations must be pressure tested to at least 1.5 times the expected working pressure for an hour or for different periods of time if plastic. Any plumber can do this with a test pump and some water.
personally would keep on at nhbc for documentation and certificates, they are the ones 'verifying' workmanship and conformity!
I know you dont want to but, i'd consider getting an independent industry expert (maybe CIPHE would be worth a call) and the manufacturers to compile reports and testimonies. Then hit them with it and demand some action.

 

[wiseman]

Must have been a right numpty uponor is pretty much fail safe..im guessing its a joint not crimped/pushed in to the viewing window; as if in a tight spot the rubber can still hold a decent pressure.
That rad nut must be finger tight to be leaking haha. Deff replumb. I cant believe buildings can be signed off in this state. :/

 

[AWheating]

i have worked on new builds where they were signed off on pre plaster inspection and the inspector never even went into the property. Even known stuffed envolopes be exchanged to get around issues.

 

[Maitri]

Hi guys incredibly I am still without heating / hot water! However, builder now offering to try to do something! So some Q's if anyone can help.

NHBC told builder to carry out repairs to radiators where pipework to valves is leaking and then pressure test. They say "the pressure test should be carried out by an Independent Specialist how had not previously been involved with the original installation. The Specialist should produce a Report confirming the test carried out and whether it passes or fails and recomendations if necessary. A copy of the Report should be sent to the Homeowner and NHBC. NHBC reserve the rights to accept the Report in whole or in part. If it rejects any part of the Report we can engage our own Specialists. "

OK Q's:

1. what will happen if the system is dirty and it is pressure tested ? (Boiler was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" which is what initiated this particular saga).
2. can a system be pressure tested and left in working order if the boiler doesn't work because of swarf/sludge due to it not being commissioned from new?
3. what happens if the system starts to leak when joints are not accessible which is what gave rise to properties having to be re-plumbed as a leak below floor level was impossible to find!
4. could pressure testing to 4 bar weaken and thereby exacerbate potential problems with a defective system even if problems didn't show up immediately? We know the property that had to re-plumbed kept losing pressure to the boiler (only a small leak) not traceable. So is it possible that pressure testing a defective system, even if there isn't an immediate problem, could cause more problems?

Thanks

 

[stevetheplumber]

crap job this is what you get when you pay rock bottom wages the pipe work isnt a system ive heard of but seems strange a crimp system then goes into compression fittings

 

[dontknowitall]

Hi guys incredibly I am still without heating / hot water! However, builder now offering to try to do something! So some Q's if anyone can help.

NHBC told builder to carry out repairs to radiators where pipework to valves is leaking and then pressure test. They say "the pressure test should be carried out by an Independent Specialist how had not previously been involved with the original installation. The Specialist should produce a Report confirming the test carried out and whether it passes or fails and recomendations if necessary. A copy of the Report should be sent to the Homeowner and NHBC. NHBC reserve the rights to accept the Report in whole or in part. If it rejects any part of the Report we can engage our own Specialists. "

OK Q's:

1. what will happen if the system is dirty and it is pressure tested ? (Boiler was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" which is what initiated this particular saga).
2. can a system be pressure tested and left in working order if the boiler doesn't work because of swarf/sludge due to it not being commissioned from new?
3. what happens if the system starts to leak when joints are not accessible which is what gave rise to properties having to be re-plumbed as a leak below floor level was impossible to find!
4. could pressure testing to 4 bar weaken and thereby exacerbate potential problems with a defective system even if problems didn't show up immediately? We know the property that had to re-plumbed kept losing pressure to the boiler (only a small leak) not traceable. So is it possible that pressure testing a defective system, even if there isn't an immediate problem, could cause more problems?

Thanks

Poor you! Not all plumbers work like this but most of us do get leaks from time to time and 99% of the time they're fixed by the end of the job and the 1% fixed by a return visit. Water can be most annoying sometimes, even for us!

My answers are not necessarily official but they're my view:

1. Nothing that will impair a pressure test.
2. Not sure what you mean but you can disconnect a boiler to pressure test the rest of the system.
3. If a leak is from an inaccessible joint, it has to be accessed or it will continue leaking.
4. I *think* WRAS approved products have to withstand 10bar of pressure. A pressure test (from memory) has to be held at 1½ times working pressure for an hour. So 1 bar working pressure has to be tested at 1.5 bar for an hour. Or 2.5 bar for 1/2 hour. Or 5 bar for 1/4 hour.

Pressure testing could cause further problems in the same way that running a car at maximum revs for too long can cause further problems.

I don't know if you have access to legal aid but it might be worth considering threatening legal action. The NHBC really should be sorting this out as a matter of course but it seems as they're not being particularly helpful. A letter from a solicitor might Gee things up.

Hope you get this sorted before too long but, I'm afraid, I can't see this being sorted out within a couple of weeks or so.

 

[andyplumber]

have you had the water in the heating tested with a fernox test kit as that will tell you the condition of the water all you do is take a sample of your mains cold water and a sample of your heating water and send it back to fernox and they will test it, it might be a way of proving that no chemicals was put in and then you can present that to NHBC.

 

[ADM360]

Hi you mentioned that D&G engineer suspected that the boiler was not commisioned!! you should have somewhere the boiler instructions and log book which should have the bench mark in it and service record, also the gas certificate from the engineer that installed it also, it should have been logged with building control at the time of instalation. if you do not have this and the builder can not produce it or have a record of it, then this could be in breach of GSUIR, as new appliance/installation MUST NOT be left connected to the gas supply. if an appliance can not be fully commissioned. if this is the case, the it would be deamed as a immediatly dangerous situation! which could in turn be reportable to the HSE and possibly to RIDDOR as it could be classed as poor workmanship. I would have thought the NHBC would be aware of this! also letting the builder know this could move him along to sort out your problems as most builders would not like a HSE investigation! the problem of cause may lie with the fact you are the second house holder and he could try the it was all with the first! but he should have some records as it is only 2 years ago, also building control should have a record, Hope this helps.

 

[Maitri]

Poor you! Not all plumbers work like this but most of us do get leaks from time to time and 99% of the time they're fixed by the end of the job and the 1% fixed by a return visit. Water can be most annoying sometimes, even for us!

My answers are not necessarily official but they're my view:

1. Nothing that will impair a pressure test.
2. Not sure what you mean but you can disconnect a boiler to pressure test the rest of the system.
3. If a leak is from an inaccessible joint, it has to be accessed or it will continue leaking.
4. I *think* WRAS approved products have to withstand 10bar of pressure. A pressure test (from memory) has to be held at 1½ times working pressure for an hour. So 1 bar working pressure has to be tested at 1.5 bar for an hour. Or 2.5 bar for 1/2 hour. Or 5 bar for 1/4 hour.

Pressure testing could cause further problems in the same way that running a car at maximum revs for too long can cause further problems.

I don't know if you have access to legal aid but it might be worth considering threatening legal action. The NHBC really should be sorting this out as a matter of course but it seems as they're not being particularly helpful. A letter from a solicitor might Gee things up.

Hope you get this sorted before too long but, I'm afraid, I can't see this being sorted out within a couple of weeks or so.

Hi thanks for reply it is really appreciated .
1. so what happens to muck in the system during the test? It's tested with air is it? Currently there's no water left in the system (I don't think). The boiler leaked bowls full for days after engineer found the hot water heat exchange full of swarf and sludge and refused a repair.

2. I was thinking when someone moves a radiator or repairs a leaking pipe they generally fire the system back up afterwards to make sure everything is working don't they? Our boiler isn't working because the system is mucky.

3. Yeh (3) was a bit of stupid Q, the Q was more to myself, if nobody knows where the joints are, and the system does leak, then what? I have oak floors! Amazingly NHBC said Independent Specialist must write a Report on what needs to be done if the system leaks, guess if it does they drain it or something do they whilst everyone discusses what next?

4. Yeh it is worrying that pressure testing could just exacerbate problems by which time builder and NHBC will have walked away again.

We were just on Year 3 when boiler broke down and insurer refused to cover repair as they said the boiler hadn't been commissioned (can't get pipework covered either as there were problems from the start). As you know the NHBC is only there to limit the builder's liability, they are not there for the consumer and new home buyers are not covered by Sale of Goods & Services Act (only the builder is) so if he hires cowboy plumbers he can't go back to them when there are problems, it's been a nightmare. I've threatened the papers and builder has more houses to sell, so I am trying to get him to re-plumb. I have a letter from Wessex Water saying the system would not have met Regulations (nobody knows where the joints are under the floor any leak below floor level would equal re-plumb, it's not the kind of liability I want to take on). I have asked the builder to get the Independent Specialist to write a Report on the whole system and the boiler, but obviously he is not keen to do so. I can't believe that anything in the property that proves itself to have never met Regulations from new isn't seen as the builder's liablity by the NHBC, but as I say they are only an insurance put in place to limit the builder's liability. We have a solicitor via our home insurance but he has been waiting to see what NHBC/builder do, without Sale of Goods & Services it's hard to get people to do anything after the first 2 years (harder enough to get them to do anything other than piecemeal repairs to an obviously faulty system in Years 1 & 2).

 

[Maitri]

HI thanks for your post, system been drained so many times because of leaks impossible to say if there was ever any Fernox (obviously builder should have topped up ). Builder said "didn't think inhibitors were part of Building Control" but it clearly states on the Benchmark Cert (which is missing).

 

[stevetheplumber]

i think nhbc is ridiculus why are house builders allow to use a body they pay for to oversee their work i only recently found out that nhbc inspectors actually replace the normal council inspectors a ludicrous situation

 

[Maitri]

Thanks for your reply. I have been down this route, everyone says there are no copies of Benchmarks just the one left in the original book (missing, although all the other books were at teh house. 4 people on the estate do not have Benchmarks) What is worrying is are you saying that our boiler which has just sat there for 7 months (all the water drained from it just after engineer called, water poured out for days) should not be connected to the gas supply or would that only be a new appliance? I have been concerned about what damage may have occured leaving the boiler just sitting there empty, but have been told it will be OK. NHBC did Building Control and they say they have no papers they are a law unto themselves. Why would Building Control be given to the NHBC, assume council just can't afford it!! Clearly an insurer who is there to limit builder's liability isn't the best place to leave Building Control is it?

 

[Maitri]

There are 2 of the Phase 1 properties unsold (the laughable affordable homes) they have both had problems with plumbing / flooding etc just like the other 9 properties on the estate affected. I submitted the details of ALL the properties with problems to the NHBC and asked them to look at the problem estate wide, the builder sold most of the house KNOWING there were problems with the plumbing /heating/ boilers as it was the first house he sold on the estate he had to re-plumb. The NHBC have just spent 5 months refusing to look at this so I wrote and asked if it was OK for the builder to now sell the two Phase 1 'affordable homes' with KNOWN problems. They wrote back saying that the NHBC Buildmark did not guarantee the house met standards and there was nothing they could do! AMAZING! It was at that point I thought I would go to the papers because people should be TOLD that the NHBC are ONLY there to protect the builder not the homeowner. They have refused, and continue to refuse to look at the problem estate wide. The Warranty promises the Home Buyer that if a property does not meet Regulations the builder will address any defects in the first 2 years or remain liable, but according to the NHBC addressing a defect equals patching up a faulty system for 2 years then walking away. Yep I am ANGRY not just for me but for all the poor sods who buy a new home thinking they have that added security not realising that the NHBC have not just spent 75 years protecting the homeowner, but 75 years limiting the liability of the builder

 

[AWheating]

Hi guys incredibly I am still without heating / hot water! However, builder now offering to try to do something! So some Q's if anyone can help.

NHBC told builder to carry out repairs to radiators where pipework to valves is leaking and then pressure test. They say "the pressure test should be carried out by an Independent Specialist how had not previously been involved with the original installation. The Specialist should produce a Report confirming the test carried out and whether it passes or fails and recomendations if necessary. A copy of the Report should be sent to the Homeowner and NHBC. NHBC reserve the rights to accept the Report in whole or in part. If it rejects any part of the Report we can engage our own Specialists. "

OK Q's:

1. what will happen if the system is dirty and it is pressure tested ? (Boiler was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" which is what initiated this particular saga).
2. can a system be pressure tested and left in working order if the boiler doesn't work because of swarf/sludge due to it not being commissioned from new?
3. what happens if the system starts to leak when joints are not accessible which is what gave rise to properties having to be re-plumbed as a leak below floor level was impossible to find!
4. could pressure testing to 4 bar weaken and thereby exacerbate potential problems with a defective system even if problems didn't show up immediately? We know the property that had to re-plumbed kept losing pressure to the boiler (only a small leak) not traceable. So is it possible that pressure testing a defective system, even if there isn't an immediate problem, could cause more problems?

Thanks

1, this should not effect the test, what i would recommend tho is that the system needs to have its water tested at a lab to see what is happening, if the system water shows no sign of correct treatment and cleaness then you can use this report to prove that the system was never filled,flushed and commissioned correctly.

2, the pipework will need to be tested to manifactures guidelines, this is likely to be above 4bar and because of this pressure you may find that the boiler and other fixtures may need to be isolated from the pipework to avoid damage to them. Ask boiler manufacture about this.

3, you are better off finding a leak now and getting it sorted out.

4, 4 bar is quite a low pressure to pressure test at, pipework manufactures instructions must be followed.

 

[Maitri]

Incredibly this is STILL ongoing!
We have no ensuite loo now because for weeks if we ran the cold tap in the bathroom the loo in the ensuite (2 rooms away) flushed! Then the loo in the ensuite would not stop flushing even without taps on, so we have no loo in ensuite now but still the NHBC and builder will not bring the system up to Regulation standards.
Best offer now from NHBC/Builder is to put the same fittings on all pipework that the builder put on leaking pipework last year. It is UGLY it looks horrible...and I could cry because I do not understand why I can't get anyone to simply get the builder to bring the system up to Regulation standards.

I am going to try to attach photos of the pipework and ask if there is another way?
Coming up from the floor is the Ginde pert-al-pert and then as you can see a bit of copper etc has been fitted to try to stop leaking. I can't get my plumbing / heating insured because it clearly never met Regulations...but if I don't accept what the NHBC are offering what can I do because a court of law would want me to show that I have tried to mitigate losses...once I accept what the NHBC have offered I would not have a case as I accepted the NHBC's resolution. Catch 22

 

[AWheating]

if thats a standard isolation valve it is not designed to be fitted on central heating because its not designed to take the temp. Its designed for hot and cold at 65*c.

either way its not correct and i would not except having a iso valve on evey rad pipe.

 

[Gray0689]

That's it standard as the pipework looks like multilayered pipe is not standard size
Does this pipe work go back to a manifold the pipe looks 16mm pipe I think as the nuts on iso different?

 

[tamz]

The MPC pipe as Gray said is 16mm and the copper is 15mm. The big nut is part of a 15-16mm adaptor which has to be used to connect to a 15mm compression fitting.
The iso valves are not really suitable for heating and they will probably leak sometime in the future.
You don't have a lot of options on how to join the pipe to the rad neatly without lifting floors and hiding the joint. If that can't be easily done you can either get the iso valves swapped for compression unions and paint it or use a crimped fitting and a bit MLC and the compression adaptor on the valve.
Either way ain't going to look too great but if that is what it takes you may have little option other than to accept it.

 

[Maitri]

Hi Tamz / Gray and A Wheating thanks for your responses. Iso valves don’t sound like a great idea and I am wondering why the plumber felt a need to use them? The guy that did the re-fitting last year wasn’t the builders plumber that fitted this awful system, he was a reputable plumber, so what was his thinking I wonder. I am at my wits end with this…I really don’t want this bodge but it’s hard to see what else. If work is being done on a system to bring it up to Regulation standards I wonder if Building Control / Water Regulator (?) would give me an opinion on the way this is being addressed even if the NHBC did the original Building Control, what do you think? I know it means taking floors up but that really isn’t my problem, this system is bodged, if I get any leaks below floor level I have to re-plumb because nobody knows where the joints are, no manifold, no access hatch or anything, which is why the builder had to re-plumb one of the houses in the first 6 months! I have a letter from the Water Regulator saying this system breaches Regulation 4, paragraph 7. My boiler, the heating system has stood now for 8 months not functioning, the boiler sprang a leaks and emptied all the water out of it 8 months ago. I have no idea what damage has been done to the system because it was never commissioned, and what damage has been done as a consequence of what has happened the past 8 months. I have no ensuite loo because I can’t turn the bath tap on in the bathroom 2 rooms away without the loo starting to flush continually, and there is nobody I can turn to to sort this , it seems astounding! I can’t even get insurance on the system because it never met Regulations and it is obvious it never met Regulations! I am exhausted and cry a lot of the time…

 

[Gray0689]

I feel so sorry for you that someone would sell a house that has so many problems I personally think you have really 2 options 1 is take NHBC to court and hope you win but going to cost you
or other option is to get a decent plumber in to re do your house at your own cost I'm afraid
If your insurance is out of the question

 

[Maitri]

Regulations

Continuing the continuing saga ....I have been speaking with a solicitor about the possibility of sueing the builder for negligence but that is for compensation for loss not to get the work done of course that would be too sensible as far as the law is concerned. So I would be sueing to get the cost of a new plumbing system one that I can get insured. My trump card in this as far as I am concerned is a letter from Wessex Water saying that the current system would not have met: The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999 specifically Regulation 4, paragraph 7, Requirements for water fittings. When Wessex water visited the property the first thing they looked for was a manifold and then looked for an access trap (we have neither) they said joints should be accessible. This is why one of the properties had to be re-plumbed because the plumber could not track a leak below floor level as he did not know where the joints were, he said the system made no sense whatsoever he couldn’t work out which way the pipes had been laid or where the joints were! We haven’t got concrete floors we have got a suspended floor on concrete joists with the pipework just below the chipboard I believe, you can feel the wamth of the pipe through the floor (when I had warm pipes of course!!)


So my Q is how many systems do have joints accessible?
How many plumbers comply to Regulation 4 para 7?
My concern is will a plumbing expert agree with Wessex Water that the system did not meet Regulations regarding access to joints?

This is the big stumbling point for me with regard to accepting NHBC Resolution is that I will be left with a system that a leak below floor level will possibly result in the need for a replumb based on the builder already having had to re-plumb a property.

From an insurance point of view, I can't get my system insured if there is a pre-existing design fault, with inaccessible joints being seen as a a design fault and the dreadful fittings on all the pipes being seen as fundamentally not meeting Regulations! My other Q is, I have said to the builder that if, after his plumber has added all the horrible fittings to my pipes and pressure tested the system will he sign it off as meeting Regulation standards? If he does then I will have no problem with the insurers, but can his plumber sign off a system with hidden joints and crappy fittings to all the radiator pipework as meeting standards?

When I was speaking to the solicitor today, he seemed to be of the belief that ALL work plumbers do should be signed off as meeting Regulations, is he right?

Thanks

 

[fagsanbooz]

well not 'all plumbing work' has to be 'notified' to building control or a competence persons scheme, only if the work actually falls under any part of the building regs, but quite a bit does require notification and that is probably where the NHBC comes in.
Bathrooms, boilers, water heaters, cylinders, controls, soil stacks & vents, drains, electrics and a few other items are some of the items that require 'notofication'.
As far as the 'water regs' goes, not a great deal in domestic properties has to be notified to them, but I am sure that a brand new property does (because it needs a new mains supply and a meter) but i will check and get back. When you say the plumber 'signs off' the work, that means he/she or the company has the neccessary qualifications and belongs to a competent persons scheme or similar. I havent read all the previous posts but what certificates have you got from NHBC?

 

[Maitri]

Hi so the plumber does not have to work to regulations for changing fittings to a radiator then ? This is our concern, not only do the fittings look ugly but there is absolutely no guarantee they will work. We have no certs from NHBC , NHBC have repeatedly said they don't have any, indeed we have a letter from them stating that the Warranty does not guarantee a property will meet standards!!