Pressure Test Q's

[Maitri]

Poor you! Not all plumbers work like this but most of us do get leaks from time to time and 99% of the time they're fixed by the end of the job and the 1% fixed by a return visit. Water can be most annoying sometimes, even for us!

My answers are not necessarily official but they're my view:

1. Nothing that will impair a pressure test.
2. Not sure what you mean but you can disconnect a boiler to pressure test the rest of the system.
3. If a leak is from an inaccessible joint, it has to be accessed or it will continue leaking.
4. I *think* WRAS approved products have to withstand 10bar of pressure. A pressure test (from memory) has to be held at 1½ times working pressure for an hour. So 1 bar working pressure has to be tested at 1.5 bar for an hour. Or 2.5 bar for 1/2 hour. Or 5 bar for 1/4 hour.

Pressure testing could cause further problems in the same way that running a car at maximum revs for too long can cause further problems.

I don't know if you have access to legal aid but it might be worth considering threatening legal action. The NHBC really should be sorting this out as a matter of course but it seems as they're not being particularly helpful. A letter from a solicitor might Gee things up.

Hope you get this sorted before too long but, I'm afraid, I can't see this being sorted out within a couple of weeks or so.

Hi thanks for reply it is really appreciated .
1. so what happens to muck in the system during the test? It's tested with air is it? Currently there's no water left in the system (I don't think). The boiler leaked bowls full for days after engineer found the hot water heat exchange full of swarf and sludge and refused a repair.

2. I was thinking when someone moves a radiator or repairs a leaking pipe they generally fire the system back up afterwards to make sure everything is working don't they? Our boiler isn't working because the system is mucky.

3. Yeh (3) was a bit of stupid Q, the Q was more to myself, if nobody knows where the joints are, and the system does leak, then what? I have oak floors! Amazingly NHBC said Independent Specialist must write a Report on what needs to be done if the system leaks, guess if it does they drain it or something do they whilst everyone discusses what next?

4. Yeh it is worrying that pressure testing could just exacerbate problems by which time builder and NHBC will have walked away again.

We were just on Year 3 when boiler broke down and insurer refused to cover repair as they said the boiler hadn't been commissioned (can't get pipework covered either as there were problems from the start). As you know the NHBC is only there to limit the builder's liability, they are not there for the consumer and new home buyers are not covered by Sale of Goods & Services Act (only the builder is) so if he hires cowboy plumbers he can't go back to them when there are problems, it's been a nightmare. I've threatened the papers and builder has more houses to sell, so I am trying to get him to re-plumb. I have a letter from Wessex Water saying the system would not have met Regulations (nobody knows where the joints are under the floor any leak below floor level would equal re-plumb, it's not the kind of liability I want to take on). I have asked the builder to get the Independent Specialist to write a Report on the whole system and the boiler, but obviously he is not keen to do so. I can't believe that anything in the property that proves itself to have never met Regulations from new isn't seen as the builder's liablity by the NHBC, but as I say they are only an insurance put in place to limit the builder's liability. We have a solicitor via our home insurance but he has been waiting to see what NHBC/builder do, without Sale of Goods & Services it's hard to get people to do anything after the first 2 years (harder enough to get them to do anything other than piecemeal repairs to an obviously faulty system in Years 1 & 2).

 

[Maitri]

HI thanks for your post, system been drained so many times because of leaks impossible to say if there was ever any Fernox (obviously builder should have topped up ). Builder said "didn't think inhibitors were part of Building Control" but it clearly states on the Benchmark Cert (which is missing).

 

[stevetheplumber]

i think nhbc is ridiculus why are house builders allow to use a body they pay for to oversee their work i only recently found out that nhbc inspectors actually replace the normal council inspectors a ludicrous situation

 

[Maitri]

Thanks for your reply. I have been down this route, everyone says there are no copies of Benchmarks just the one left in the original book (missing, although all the other books were at teh house. 4 people on the estate do not have Benchmarks) What is worrying is are you saying that our boiler which has just sat there for 7 months (all the water drained from it just after engineer called, water poured out for days) should not be connected to the gas supply or would that only be a new appliance? I have been concerned about what damage may have occured leaving the boiler just sitting there empty, but have been told it will be OK. NHBC did Building Control and they say they have no papers they are a law unto themselves. Why would Building Control be given to the NHBC, assume council just can't afford it!! Clearly an insurer who is there to limit builder's liability isn't the best place to leave Building Control is it?

 

[Maitri]

There are 2 of the Phase 1 properties unsold (the laughable affordable homes) they have both had problems with plumbing / flooding etc just like the other 9 properties on the estate affected. I submitted the details of ALL the properties with problems to the NHBC and asked them to look at the problem estate wide, the builder sold most of the house KNOWING there were problems with the plumbing /heating/ boilers as it was the first house he sold on the estate he had to re-plumb. The NHBC have just spent 5 months refusing to look at this so I wrote and asked if it was OK for the builder to now sell the two Phase 1 'affordable homes' with KNOWN problems. They wrote back saying that the NHBC Buildmark did not guarantee the house met standards and there was nothing they could do! AMAZING! It was at that point I thought I would go to the papers because people should be TOLD that the NHBC are ONLY there to protect the builder not the homeowner. They have refused, and continue to refuse to look at the problem estate wide. The Warranty promises the Home Buyer that if a property does not meet Regulations the builder will address any defects in the first 2 years or remain liable, but according to the NHBC addressing a defect equals patching up a faulty system for 2 years then walking away. Yep I am ANGRY not just for me but for all the poor sods who buy a new home thinking they have that added security not realising that the NHBC have not just spent 75 years protecting the homeowner, but 75 years limiting the liability of the builder

 

[AWheating]

Hi guys incredibly I am still without heating / hot water! However, builder now offering to try to do something! So some Q's if anyone can help.

NHBC told builder to carry out repairs to radiators where pipework to valves is leaking and then pressure test. They say "the pressure test should be carried out by an Independent Specialist how had not previously been involved with the original installation. The Specialist should produce a Report confirming the test carried out and whether it passes or fails and recomendations if necessary. A copy of the Report should be sent to the Homeowner and NHBC. NHBC reserve the rights to accept the Report in whole or in part. If it rejects any part of the Report we can engage our own Specialists. "

OK Q's:

1. what will happen if the system is dirty and it is pressure tested ? (Boiler was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" which is what initiated this particular saga).
2. can a system be pressure tested and left in working order if the boiler doesn't work because of swarf/sludge due to it not being commissioned from new?
3. what happens if the system starts to leak when joints are not accessible which is what gave rise to properties having to be re-plumbed as a leak below floor level was impossible to find!
4. could pressure testing to 4 bar weaken and thereby exacerbate potential problems with a defective system even if problems didn't show up immediately? We know the property that had to re-plumbed kept losing pressure to the boiler (only a small leak) not traceable. So is it possible that pressure testing a defective system, even if there isn't an immediate problem, could cause more problems?

Thanks

1, this should not effect the test, what i would recommend tho is that the system needs to have its water tested at a lab to see what is happening, if the system water shows no sign of correct treatment and cleaness then you can use this report to prove that the system was never filled,flushed and commissioned correctly.

2, the pipework will need to be tested to manifactures guidelines, this is likely to be above 4bar and because of this pressure you may find that the boiler and other fixtures may need to be isolated from the pipework to avoid damage to them. Ask boiler manufacture about this.

3, you are better off finding a leak now and getting it sorted out.

4, 4 bar is quite a low pressure to pressure test at, pipework manufactures instructions must be followed.

 

[Maitri]

Incredibly this is STILL ongoing!
We have no ensuite loo now because for weeks if we ran the cold tap in the bathroom the loo in the ensuite (2 rooms away) flushed! Then the loo in the ensuite would not stop flushing even without taps on, so we have no loo in ensuite now but still the NHBC and builder will not bring the system up to Regulation standards.
Best offer now from NHBC/Builder is to put the same fittings on all pipework that the builder put on leaking pipework last year. It is UGLY it looks horrible...and I could cry because I do not understand why I can't get anyone to simply get the builder to bring the system up to Regulation standards.

I am going to try to attach photos of the pipework and ask if there is another way?
Coming up from the floor is the Ginde pert-al-pert and then as you can see a bit of copper etc has been fitted to try to stop leaking. I can't get my plumbing / heating insured because it clearly never met Regulations...but if I don't accept what the NHBC are offering what can I do because a court of law would want me to show that I have tried to mitigate losses...once I accept what the NHBC have offered I would not have a case as I accepted the NHBC's resolution. Catch 22

 

[AWheating]

if thats a standard isolation valve it is not designed to be fitted on central heating because its not designed to take the temp. Its designed for hot and cold at 65*c.

either way its not correct and i would not except having a iso valve on evey rad pipe.

 

[Gray0689]

That's it standard as the pipework looks like multilayered pipe is not standard size
Does this pipe work go back to a manifold the pipe looks 16mm pipe I think as the nuts on iso different?

 

[tamz]

The MPC pipe as Gray said is 16mm and the copper is 15mm. The big nut is part of a 15-16mm adaptor which has to be used to connect to a 15mm compression fitting.
The iso valves are not really suitable for heating and they will probably leak sometime in the future.
You don't have a lot of options on how to join the pipe to the rad neatly without lifting floors and hiding the joint. If that can't be easily done you can either get the iso valves swapped for compression unions and paint it or use a crimped fitting and a bit MLC and the compression adaptor on the valve.
Either way ain't going to look too great but if that is what it takes you may have little option other than to accept it.