Pressure Test Q's

[Maitri]

Hi I have a bit of a contd saga and I am very appreciative of the help I have been offered on this forum. I live in a new build 2 1/2 years old plumbing across the estate has been a disaster. Builder had to re-plumb the first house sold on the estate because there was a leak that his new plumber (old plumber left the job in the middle of the build because he hadn't been paid he cut radiators off walls etc), said he couldn't find therefore it was "cheaper and easier to re-plumb" !! As we all have the same plumbing / heating this is, to say the least, somewhat worrying especially when we have all had endless plumbing /heating problems. Anyway my question is, I have been told that the system was never pressure tested before it was hooked up to the supply and the ceilings and floors were already finished !! When the system (that is across the estate) was hooked up it leaked like a sieve. Having pushed the NHBC hard they have agreed to come in and pressure test the central heating (not the plumbing as a whole). They have told the builder to fix leaks in radiators and then get a 'specialist' in to pressure test the heating system. My questions are:
1. what is defined as a 'specialist' in relation to pressure testing ?

2. what will this prove? The house that was re-plumbed was losing pressure in their boiler and the plumber could not track a leak. We have Chinese Ginde Pert-al-Pert pipe (plastic /aluminium / plastic) can this pipe drip from any joint below floor level without ever really showing any signs of leaking beyond boiler pressure dropping? There is no access to joints and builders new plumber said he had no idea where the joints were and couldn't even make sense of the way the pipes run which it why it was easier to re-plumb. I guess what I am trying to say is that if a pressure test was done, unless there was a very obvious BURST could the pressure test cause a leak that wouldn't be detectable immediately ? I am also worried about pipes bursting, is that a possibility, fittings flying off etc ? I wonder who would then be liable for the repair, I have oak floors fitted.

3. The builder now has to try and repair leaking radiators but how? Last year he attemped to repair leaks (the Ginde pipe below floor level is connected to the radiators using Ginde pipe not copper). We know the plumber pulled up excess pipe last year and attempted to re-fit, but the radiatores are leaking again. The radiators where he could not pull up pipe he fitted 3 different bits of pipe including a bit of copper (I'll try to attach pics) and it looks REALLY REALLY ugly. So what are the builders/plumbers options in repairing the radiators?

4. how much more work would it be for the 'specialist' to pressure test the plumbing whilst he is here? Again what happens if there are leaks and the joints below floor level are not accessible or even traceable!?

5. When Wessex Water called they said that WRAS Regulations state that all joints below floor level should be accessible and spoke about 'manifolds'. Obviously the joints not being accessible led to the builder having to re-plumb the property (obviously something everyone on the estate is not happy about having to accept responsiblity for), have we got a case against the builder if joints are not accessible? Our insurer Domestic & General said they would not offer insurance on plumbing that is not easily accessible.

6. Part of my contd saga relates to a boiler that D&G refused to repair and told me to return to the builder, as they believed it had not been commissioned from new as the hot water heat exchange was full of swarf and sludge. The boiler was just over 2 years old at the time. Is it possible for a 2 year old boiler to contd to work that long if it had not been commissioned from new? If the problem was not due to lack of commissioning then what else could have caused the swarf and sludge build up in a NEW system in a new build in 2 years? (No Benchmark but we are 2nd buyers. However, at least 3 other people (1st buyers) on the estate haven't got Benchmark Certificates)

7. can the repairs to the leaking radiators and the pressure test be carried out when the boiler is not working? Would the 'specialist' called to pressure test the heating system be qualified to check the contents of the main heat exchange and offer an opinion on the likely cause of the swarf and sludge? I assume if the hot water heat exchange was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" according to D&G's engineer the main heat exchange will be also? How difficult is it to get the main heat exchange out?

Sorry a lot of Q's but I am trying to work out what to do next thanks

(Re picture of the dripping pipe under the bath. This was the 3rd leak we have had in this bathroom (leaks in others too), this pipe dripped 2 1/2 litres of water a day for weeks and then just stopped. Any ideas why that would have happened. Clearly plumbing not right but why would it leak for weeks and then stop? And another Q I was going to ask. Shortly after D&G engineer had been boiler started to leak water all over the kitchen side. Boiler leaked for about a week then presumably it was empty. (We have not had hot water or heating since January ). Could the boiler have been damaged / rusted just sitting there all this time? Thanks)

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

That sounds like it Defo needs a re plumb!

A pressure test puts the circuit under pressure and it is left for a time and the pressure checked again, even a small drip will show a drop in the pressure guage indicating a leak. I would get my house replumbed like the first house. Speak to the builder about it and your insurers for advice

 

[kay-jay]

sounds like a right mess. and from the pics looks like a right mess!

the swarf and sludge in your system indicates that the pipework carcass was not flushed after installation it will be pipe burrs and flux and quite possibly plaster if pipe ends were left open.

isolation valves on the radiator tails is not good, neither is the placcy pipe bent to the point where it is kinked.

as for the pipe it is not one i have even heard of. unfortunately you will need a re-plumb however the good news is that as one house has been done it kind of indicates liability on the part of the builders for crappy plumbing. added to the fact that any plumber who knows his stuff will be able to provide a testimonial to the problems being the result of bad practices, naff products and a fundamental flouting of manufacturers instructions regarding pipework flushing prior to boiler install and commissioning. your boiler warranty will be voided by this! but again you have grounds for a claim based on the fact that standard industry procedures weren't followed.

the only thing that could complicate matters is the fact that you are not the original owner of the property! and therefore any liability may be voided based on the fact that your surveyor should have picked up this issue. and that it may be like buying a car 'sold as seen' but for your sake i hope not!

good luck

 

[WHPES]

Drfinitely complete replumb. The quality of the work is absolutely appalling. Judging by the red stain there is serious corrosion to the system anyway.

 

[Bartdude]

That looks like Uponor pipe,but you say it's Ginde,I don't know that make. If that has been used for the pipework carcass with crimped fittings then it should be fine.It's a very reliable system,much better than push fit.The leaks you have are coming from the compression nut adaptors where the plastic changes to copper,the leaks under the bath are because the inserts are being pulled at an angle,if the pipe was installed straight then it wouldn't have leaked.

It's untidy,no doubt about that, and it needs doing properly. You could lift the floor below the radiators and crimp new fittings to enable the rads to be piped up neatly.I've used loads of Uponor and am a big fan. A pressure test is a good idea though,there's nothing specialist about it,any plumber should be able to do that.

 

[Maitri]

Hi there thanks for replies, of course makes a lot of sense but NHBC are not having any of it. I am attempting to establish if something clearly breached standards from Day 1 and the builder KNEW, then why would the NHBC 2 year rule apply. Surely a breach of standards is not the same as an unnotified snag is it ? As you may or may not know the NHBC have a 2 year rule that says that the builder only remains liable after the 2 years for problems that were notified in the first 2 years. However, the NHBC then interpret that as only relating to the specific problems notified if they have not been repaired, not the root cause of the endless notification of problems with the whole plumbing and heating system across the estate.

Even though I am 2nd buyer the builder had a liability for the first 2 years and a continuing liability via the NHBC Warranty unless I was notified of problems by the vendor, in other words were alerted to a problem, which I was not and it was an executive sale otherwise I would attempt to return to the vendor who I have been told was flooded and would have clearly known about the leaking pipes etc.. He was very elderly, moved in the property from new, then found he had cancer and was gone shortly afterwards.

Not sure it is voided by surveyor, surveyors are not plumbing experts. I could also argue that I would not think about having to have a full survey on the plumbing, I lived in my last home 34 years, nobody ever had to worry about plumbing, it lasted a lifetime mostly , didn't it?

These problems are reflected across the estate and our biggest card to play is that the builder has just completed Phase 2 and has another 15 properties to sell. One assumes he has to declare(as other home sellers do) if there are any disputes.

The builder said that the boiler was in that state because I hadn't bled the radiators, which I had checked a couple of times but there wasn't any air in the system. The problems with the boilers are also reflected across the estate. The property that was re-plumbed was plumbed because the boiler kept losing pressure, ownder says that even now he can't have the boiler turned up without a pipe going. The people next door have to keep re-pressurising their boiler and bleading radiators which seems to imply a possible leak. WHPES on the forum said "the red stain there is serious corrosion to the system anyway". I assume this is because inhibitors were never added as the boiler was not commissioned, so what does this mean, does it mean the radiators would need replacing if they have been without inhibitors for 3 years ? And as already mentioned, I am concerned about what might be happening to the boiler that has just been sat there empty of water for nearly 4 months. The D&G engineer said that if the boiler had not been commissioned the swarf and sludge could have damaged parts and the life expectancy of the boiler reduced by 50% which again is extremely upsetting if that is true.

 

[WHPES]

If the system has been filled once, emptied and left like that then there will have been serious corrosion but as for how bad it is the system would need to be inspected.

Corrosion will have happened if no inhibitor was added to the system water but shouldl not be terminal.

Check the radiators for rust spots.

Swarf and sludge can be removed using chemical cleaner and powerflushing provided it has not got encrusted.

If all the work looks like your 1st photo, it is a really rough job.

 

[bengasman]

1. what is defined as a 'specialist' in relation to pressure testing ?

My definition would be: Hogwash designed to lead unsuspecting customer up the garden path.
Pressure testing is ( or should be ) a standard part of EVERY heating install and other new wet work.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

thats not plumbing thats a plastic mess

 

[REDSAW]

i will put a bet on, it will fail a pressure test.

amazing, every dog and his labourer thinks he's a 'plumber'.lol.