Nightmare with a plumber

[Richrara]

Long story short: hired a plumber with 65 positive feedback (100% total) on my builder to channel pipes in and replace radiators which were 40 years old. Apart from destroying all the carpets, throwing furniture out in the rain and trying to fill cornicing (which looked like he'd chewed out with his teeth) in with cement, the heating - which worked perfectly with the old radiators (and Worcester Bosch boiler which had been in for 2 years) is no longer working properly (only 50% of rads now get hot). He reckons its cos the pipes were 'installed lazily by whoever did the boiler (they run in a loop around a downstairs cupboard) - but the heating was ALL working fine before he installed the new rads.
I suggested to him that could it be as he has now installed much bigger rads than before (old ones were singles, these are doubles) - and he said 'maybe...but it's the piping they did that's the main problem'...so...he's now intending on replacing a load of piping (just charging me for materials) but I'm concerned this won't fix it. So I have 3 questions really...

1) is it possible that the radiators he has installed are too big for the boiler to cope with (he keeps telling me it's too small a boiler for the house...but it's worked perfectly before he replaced the rads)?
2) if that's the case what should I do? He's quoting 3k to replace heating system; but there is no way I would have had new rads in had it meant replacing the entire heating system (which as I keep saying worked perfectly before).
3) hes intending on removing the magna clean that is installed entirely as he said 'they've put it on the return so it isn't doing anything anyway'...should I let him do this?

Any help hugely appreciated.

For the record he's tried to balance them three times with no luck. Also it's an old gravity fed system.

Thanks

 

[bert large]

Sound's like it's an open vented system. Probably you have an air-lock somewhere if some rads are not heating up at all & they all worked before.
Also The Magna-clean SHOULD be on the return pipe as it is designed to protect the boiler from dirt & debris. Don't let him move it.

 

[clarky101]

were the old rads off 15mm main feed line or was it 22mm but ideally now the rads are bigger they should be 22mm with 3 to 4 rads off 15mm.....filter should always be on the return pipe to the boiler....and a question to you is would you buy anything off eBay if the seller had 65percent feedback?..

 

[jtsplumbing]

Well if system worked B4 he messed around with it , it should work now, it's quite clear this chap has not got a clue, do you know what size boiler you have ?, Magna-clean is recommended to be fitted on return to stop any dirt getting back to boiler, you say old system have you got hot water cylinder / tanks in loft, would have thought when boiler was replaced 2 years ago that system you had was suitable for modern boiler and whatever was needed to update system was done then, You need to get someone in to check what has been done B4 you let this guy loose on your house again, sounds like he has already done plenty of damage

 

[stevetheplumber]

if it worked before even if the output of the rads exceeds the out put from the boiler they should all work but not get hot enough to warm the rooms same if pipework is under sized they should all get warm

 

[Best]

Only way you can be sure the guy has piped it wrong is get another heating engineer to take a look at the way it's been done for a small fee. Do this before you let the bloke back to do anything else.
Maybe posting your approximate location here would give anyone here local to you the opportunity to advise.
Could you post photographs of where he has linked onto pipes and work you think is bodged?
I agree with the comment about 65 out of 100 feedback. Why would you use someone with that record?

 

[jonnyswamp]

If you have a one pipe system and he's moved/chased pipes into wall and put longer rads in, then it may heed a complete re-pipe to work properly(google how a one pipe system works)
If it's a 2 pipe and he's only changed rads and not altered any primaries, then it's probably just airlocked and should work again once properly filled
The magnetic cleaner should be on the return for reasons already stated above
The plumber had 100% feedback from 65 jobs ? they could have all been basic plumbing jobs and not heating related
You seem to be pushing the blame onto him for fitting larger rads, damaging carpets etc
Did you ask for bigger rads, did he explain he would have to pull up carpets to alter pipe work

 

[jonnyswamp]

I read it as 65 reviews, all were positive making it 100% feedback

 

[Best]

Edit, - sorry I misinterpreted the feedback! 100% feedback with total of 65 jobs is different to what I thought was 65% good feedback.
But as said, that feedback could be based on jobs like replacing ballvalves and taps and tap washers. Seen this lots of times in the past with guys who convince people they are good engineers, - until they attempt something hard, and then their lack of knowledge or bad work ways show.

 

[Best]

I read it as 65 reviews, all were positive making it 100% feedback

Yes, think you are correct.
Guess it's now going to be 66 reviews, one not so positive! :smile:

 

[stevetheplumber]

this is the problem with rated people checkatrade etc anyone can call them selves a plumber

 

[REDSAW]

turn all rads off bar one. does that work?
try each in turn, do they all work on their own?

if they do, boiler output too low or not ballanced correctly!

 

[Unregistered]

Hi all, thanks so much for the replies.
I have uploaded a picture of the tank and boiler, hope that helps in response to some of the questions. I've also uploaded pics of the cupboard which has the 'loop' of piping he now intends to replace (not sure if to let him now?) https://goo.gl/photos/UWT6xjYzJniP1tNY7
He did have 100% positive feedback, but I now suspect this was mainly for smaller jobs....it must have been!!
He didn't tell me he was putting bigger rads in (I assumed he'd have the knowledge to put in what was best!) and the issue with carpet was that he didn't put anything on floor to protect it when channeling out (he didn't need to lift the carpets that were damaged). Also he knew we were keeping them).
Thanks for heads up on magna clean...definitely won't let him take it out!!
Im in stotfold, Hertfordshire if anyone is interested in coming and having a look please let me know details.
Hes fiddled about this morning, told me to leave heating on at 30 degrees, and NO rads are working now.
Thanks again for replies. Any further advice much appreciated.

 

[snoopy8888]

magnetic filters are meant to be installed on return before the boiler.

 

[Unregistered]

He's got 100% good feedback

 

[jonnyswamp]

The magnaclean is on the flow from what I can see, it's OK where it is but would be better fitted on the return just before the boiler, perhaps that's what your plumber said

 

[jtsplumbing]

Well see system was installed by BG , Filter is not in best position, idea is to protect boiler, so best if fitted B4 water gets back into boiler (ON return) system is a standard fully pumped 2 pipe system and must have met requirements 2 years ago,
So what the hell is this plumber of yours trying to do ?? DO you know what the output of the boiler is would have thought it around 24 Kw

 

[Unregistered]

Pls see pics in above link. Also worth noting I had to stop him from cutting an 8" piece out of main supporting roof beam so he could get a tank up! In the end he put two smaller tanks in (following me suggesting it...)

 

[Unregistered]

Hi, not sure where to find out what kW boiler is? manual is for all systems from 12 kW up to 24kw...he's said its 'too small' though, so not sure if it would be a 24kw?
Are you saying that magna clean is in wrong place and should be removed? Or not?
Thanks

 

[lame plumber]

they are advising you to get a second opinion from a decent heating technician

 

[jtsplumbing]

Look in bench mark section of installation book, should tell you what size boiler they fitted, if they left you information about magna-clean have a look or try web site, most preferred location is on return, but where it is, is better than nothing

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Pls see pics in above link. Also worth noting I had to stop him from cutting an 8" piece out of main supporting roof beam so he could get a tank up! In the end he put two smaller tanks in (following me suggesting it...)

It would be interesting to know where this person learned plumbing and who with?

I would love to see the pictures of the linked tanks - this provides some evidence on how much he knows and what his installation skills are like.

 

[spanner]

Can't understand the why magnacleans there..??

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

this is the problem with rated people checkatrade etc anyone can call them selves a plumber

I disagree with that as many good tradesman advertise on these sites. As with anything there's always a small risk of something going wrong

 

[jtsplumbing]

Can't understand the why magnacleans there..??

Proberly no room near boiler ! but with BG who knows, seem to have there own way of doing things,

 

[jtsplumbing]

Guy started by replacing some rads, so why is he removing roof tanks now ? seems we are only getting part of the story, but sounds like he has caused some damage to carpets, got the chaps furniture wet by putting it out side (WHY) ? now on about it costing 3 grand to put system right ! what's OP doing letting him go this far ? most people would have thrown him out by now, but then people go on these find a trade sites to get a cheep job, then complain about the standard of work, something not quite right.

 

[SimonG]

tbh I stopped reading after mybuilder and skipped to the questions.

sack the muppet.

 

[jtsplumbing]

tbh I stopped reading after mybuilder and skipped to the questions.

sack the muppet.

Do you get the impression this may be a DIY attempt that has gone wrong !!

 

[Unregistered]

He installed the bathroom too, but I thought that was an aside from heating for the sake of the issues I'm having (probably wrongly..but bathroom seems to be ok, just heating that is the problem. I've got someone to give a second opinion tonight.
Essentially, I've lost faith in the first guy (some time ago) so if I now have to pay to get things working again then so be it. Thanks for all your advice.

 

[WaterTight]

sometimes people have no choice but to use checkatrade, mybuilder, whathaveyou.

the key things to remember is to find people with lots of not just recent but RELEVANT feedback.

it's still relatively easy to create a misleadingly positive impression of yourself unfortunately

 

[jtsplumbing]

He installed the bathroom too, but I thought that was an aside from heating for the sake of the issues I'm having (probably wrongly..but bathroom seems to be ok, just heating that is the problem. I've got someone to give a second opinion tonight.
Essentially, I've lost faith in the first guy (some time ago) so if I now have to pay to get things working again then so be it. Thanks for all your advice.

Good let us all know the outcome should be interesting !!!!!

 

[Stanios]

Was your boiler fitted by British Gas? Their prices must have scared you so much you came running all the way to mybuilder :wink_smile:

 

[jtsplumbing]

Was your boiler fitted by British Gas? Their prices must have scared you so much you came running all the way to mybuilder :wink_smile:

Must have been BG ! Blue wiring centre / Blue MVs amazed it still got Worcester badge on boiler usely change it for BG badge

 

[Richrara]

A chap just came round, didn't charge, sorted my washer out the other guy had plumbed in that was :nono:ing water everywhere...diamond. His opinion is this:

He agreed that the piping in the cupboard was poor, as the water had to come down from the tank, along the skirting, and back up to feed the upstairs radiators (bg's efforts to thank for that). So he suggested the following:

tell matey boy im not happy to pay for materials to redo that piping, as the system was all working before he put in new rads; and so it should be working when he left the job.

He then said if I wasn't happy for the other guy to do more work to get it going, he would firstly do a system flush, service the boiler, and then sort that dodgy piping out. Total cost: £500.

My my next question was: what if it still doesn't work? He then said it would be a case of looking at pipe widths throughout the house....

ive just tried to contact initial plumber, but didn't answer so have texted saying that we're not happy at having to fork out more for materials to get the system working when it worked before he came in...

waiting to hear back.

 

[nicro3]

Confucius say.Word of mouth not word of key.

 

[stevetheplumber]

so the second plumber has more or less said the same as the first in so much as the existing isnt right and we can all see the magna is in the wrong place sounds to me like the first guy wasnt far out
having said that if it worked before it should work to some extent now so something has changed
if the system worked before and theres a magna clean fitted how did he come to the conclusion it needs a powerflush? did he open the magna clean? if not i would be looking for plumber number three

 

[jtsplumbing]

so the second plumber has more or less said the same as the first in so much as the existing isnt right and we can all see the magna is in the wrong place sounds to me like the first guy wasnt far out
having said that if it worked before it should work to some extent now so something has changed
if the system worked before and theres a magna clean fitted how did he come to the conclusion it needs a powerflush? did he open the magna clean? if not i would be looking for plumber number three

Especially as he is fitting new rads, most of rubbish would be left in them, take it that magna-clean has been washed out over the last couple of years, as Steve pointed out if M/Clean is looking ok why power flush.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I'm starting to get a feeling all was not well before this started.

 

[Unregistered]

He said he'd power flush it on the basis it was an old system, had new rads in, and would use a power flush to eradicate any chance of things being gunged up. Fair? Or not?
Original plumber has come back and said he's doing me a favour moving those pipes for free, but won't charge for materials either seen as I asked him not to. My thought on that is: it worked before he started doing any work, so it should work having spent £1500 on installing new rads.
Finally need to ask: do I insist he doesn't take magna clean off? And what is my definitive reason why I want it leaving on (he reckons its restricting the flow (or return, can't remember which) so need to convince him. Also, we had no heating whatsoever on after he left today...and plumber number 2 turned it back on as 'he'd turned the magna clean off'. So he'll know someone's been fiddling...would he have turned it off yo make his life easier replacing the pipe work in the morning? Thanks

 

[Unregistered]

It's an 18kw system feeding 10 rads in a large-ish 3 bed detached btw

 

[jtsplumbing]

Only way its restricting anything is if its never been cleaned out, do you know if it has been serviced

 

[Unregistered]

I'm not sure, have no evidence to suggest it has or not unfortunately. Very stressful this plumbing stuff when you've a heavily pregnant wife, a two year old, no heating, and £1500 less in the bank!

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I reckon if you got a third opinion and it's the same then get the original man back to sort it out.

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks very much for your help, much appreciated.

 

[plumben]

If the magna clean was turned off surley that would be the cause of no heating as there would be no flow?

 

[Riley]

Also surely system was cleaned at time of boiler install???

 

[firemant]

Yep. Find plumber number 3.
Best practice is for MVC to be on return immediately before boiler, but is sometimes impossible to do, and on the flow is not wrong if only choice.
Do not pay for a PF at this stage. If it was working okay before, it wont suddenly get full of sludge. There is something silly going on, and sometimes one cannot see the wood for the trees. The plumber has to start from the basics. I was getting a headache trying to work out the pipe runs from the photos, but I would be looking at:
a/ Air Lock
b/ a valve that is closed, or partially closed. Either because it has not been opened properly or is internally damaged
c/ Does hot water work okay? If not, blockage in heat exchanger. Possible movemnet of muck in system when draining / filling.
d/ Crud entered the system when re-piping. It does happen.
Has motorised valve been checked?
Although a little irrelevant to the actual probem - Why were you chasing pipes in? How was that done - what measures were taken to prevent the plaster cracking from heat?

 

[stevetheplumber]

magna cant be blocked or shut of as the op has hot water the magna is where it is as theres no way to fit it adacent to boiler as pipework is to close to ceiling and any magna is better than none

 

[thompsonbrown]

Sounds like air to me.
If you've replaced all the rads and the system already had a magna clean fitted you probably don't need the system flushed.
The boiler is more than capable of dealing with the bigger radiators.
Given the pipework lay out its more than likely air in the system you have no air vents fitted which will make it harder to remove but not impossible. any decent gas fitter should have that up and running quite quick.
also advise checking your valves on the boiler, magna clean filter and rtn pipe from cylinder are all fully open. Also there is a small water sample point on the boiler, opening this into a bucket to remove any air might also be worth considering.

 

[REDSAW]

turn off rads bar one, then follow heat pipe from boiler...
stick hose on drain off and open ...

easy to try