Nightmare with a plumber

[Richrara]

Long story short: hired a plumber with 65 positive feedback (100% total) on my builder to channel pipes in and replace radiators which were 40 years old. Apart from destroying all the carpets, throwing furniture out in the rain and trying to fill cornicing (which looked like he'd chewed out with his teeth) in with cement, the heating - which worked perfectly with the old radiators (and Worcester Bosch boiler which had been in for 2 years) is no longer working properly (only 50% of rads now get hot). He reckons its cos the pipes were 'installed lazily by whoever did the boiler (they run in a loop around a downstairs cupboard) - but the heating was ALL working fine before he installed the new rads.
I suggested to him that could it be as he has now installed much bigger rads than before (old ones were singles, these are doubles) - and he said 'maybe...but it's the piping they did that's the main problem'...so...he's now intending on replacing a load of piping (just charging me for materials) but I'm concerned this won't fix it. So I have 3 questions really...

1) is it possible that the radiators he has installed are too big for the boiler to cope with (he keeps telling me it's too small a boiler for the house...but it's worked perfectly before he replaced the rads)?
2) if that's the case what should I do? He's quoting 3k to replace heating system; but there is no way I would have had new rads in had it meant replacing the entire heating system (which as I keep saying worked perfectly before).
3) hes intending on removing the magna clean that is installed entirely as he said 'they've put it on the return so it isn't doing anything anyway'...should I let him do this?

Any help hugely appreciated.

For the record he's tried to balance them three times with no luck. Also it's an old gravity fed system.

Thanks

 

[jtsplumbing]

He installed the bathroom too, but I thought that was an aside from heating for the sake of the issues I'm having (probably wrongly..but bathroom seems to be ok, just heating that is the problem. I've got someone to give a second opinion tonight.
Essentially, I've lost faith in the first guy (some time ago) so if I now have to pay to get things working again then so be it. Thanks for all your advice.

Good let us all know the outcome should be interesting !!!!!

 

[Stanios]

Was your boiler fitted by British Gas? Their prices must have scared you so much you came running all the way to mybuilder :wink_smile:

 

[jtsplumbing]

Was your boiler fitted by British Gas? Their prices must have scared you so much you came running all the way to mybuilder :wink_smile:

Must have been BG ! Blue wiring centre / Blue MVs amazed it still got Worcester badge on boiler usely change it for BG badge

 

[Richrara]

A chap just came round, didn't charge, sorted my washer out the other guy had plumbed in that was :nono:ing water everywhere...diamond. His opinion is this:

He agreed that the piping in the cupboard was poor, as the water had to come down from the tank, along the skirting, and back up to feed the upstairs radiators (bg's efforts to thank for that). So he suggested the following:

tell matey boy im not happy to pay for materials to redo that piping, as the system was all working before he put in new rads; and so it should be working when he left the job.

He then said if I wasn't happy for the other guy to do more work to get it going, he would firstly do a system flush, service the boiler, and then sort that dodgy piping out. Total cost: £500.

My my next question was: what if it still doesn't work? He then said it would be a case of looking at pipe widths throughout the house....

ive just tried to contact initial plumber, but didn't answer so have texted saying that we're not happy at having to fork out more for materials to get the system working when it worked before he came in...

waiting to hear back.

 

[nicro3]

Confucius say.Word of mouth not word of key.

 

[stevetheplumber]

so the second plumber has more or less said the same as the first in so much as the existing isnt right and we can all see the magna is in the wrong place sounds to me like the first guy wasnt far out
having said that if it worked before it should work to some extent now so something has changed
if the system worked before and theres a magna clean fitted how did he come to the conclusion it needs a powerflush? did he open the magna clean? if not i would be looking for plumber number three

 

[jtsplumbing]

so the second plumber has more or less said the same as the first in so much as the existing isnt right and we can all see the magna is in the wrong place sounds to me like the first guy wasnt far out
having said that if it worked before it should work to some extent now so something has changed
if the system worked before and theres a magna clean fitted how did he come to the conclusion it needs a powerflush? did he open the magna clean? if not i would be looking for plumber number three

Especially as he is fitting new rads, most of rubbish would be left in them, take it that magna-clean has been washed out over the last couple of years, as Steve pointed out if M/Clean is looking ok why power flush.

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I'm starting to get a feeling all was not well before this started.

 

[Unregistered]

He said he'd power flush it on the basis it was an old system, had new rads in, and would use a power flush to eradicate any chance of things being gunged up. Fair? Or not?
Original plumber has come back and said he's doing me a favour moving those pipes for free, but won't charge for materials either seen as I asked him not to. My thought on that is: it worked before he started doing any work, so it should work having spent £1500 on installing new rads.
Finally need to ask: do I insist he doesn't take magna clean off? And what is my definitive reason why I want it leaving on (he reckons its restricting the flow (or return, can't remember which) so need to convince him. Also, we had no heating whatsoever on after he left today...and plumber number 2 turned it back on as 'he'd turned the magna clean off'. So he'll know someone's been fiddling...would he have turned it off yo make his life easier replacing the pipe work in the morning? Thanks

 

[Unregistered]

It's an 18kw system feeding 10 rads in a large-ish 3 bed detached btw

 

[jtsplumbing]

Only way its restricting anything is if its never been cleaned out, do you know if it has been serviced

 

[Unregistered]

I'm not sure, have no evidence to suggest it has or not unfortunately. Very stressful this plumbing stuff when you've a heavily pregnant wife, a two year old, no heating, and £1500 less in the bank!

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

I reckon if you got a third opinion and it's the same then get the original man back to sort it out.

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks very much for your help, much appreciated.

 

[plumben]

If the magna clean was turned off surley that would be the cause of no heating as there would be no flow?

 

[Riley]

Also surely system was cleaned at time of boiler install???

 

[firemant]

Yep. Find plumber number 3.
Best practice is for MVC to be on return immediately before boiler, but is sometimes impossible to do, and on the flow is not wrong if only choice.
Do not pay for a PF at this stage. If it was working okay before, it wont suddenly get full of sludge. There is something silly going on, and sometimes one cannot see the wood for the trees. The plumber has to start from the basics. I was getting a headache trying to work out the pipe runs from the photos, but I would be looking at:
a/ Air Lock
b/ a valve that is closed, or partially closed. Either because it has not been opened properly or is internally damaged
c/ Does hot water work okay? If not, blockage in heat exchanger. Possible movemnet of muck in system when draining / filling.
d/ Crud entered the system when re-piping. It does happen.
Has motorised valve been checked?
Although a little irrelevant to the actual probem - Why were you chasing pipes in? How was that done - what measures were taken to prevent the plaster cracking from heat?

 

[stevetheplumber]

magna cant be blocked or shut of as the op has hot water the magna is where it is as theres no way to fit it adacent to boiler as pipework is to close to ceiling and any magna is better than none

 

[thompsonbrown]

Sounds like air to me.
If you've replaced all the rads and the system already had a magna clean fitted you probably don't need the system flushed.
The boiler is more than capable of dealing with the bigger radiators.
Given the pipework lay out its more than likely air in the system you have no air vents fitted which will make it harder to remove but not impossible. any decent gas fitter should have that up and running quite quick.
also advise checking your valves on the boiler, magna clean filter and rtn pipe from cylinder are all fully open. Also there is a small water sample point on the boiler, opening this into a bucket to remove any air might also be worth considering.

 

[REDSAW]

turn off rads bar one, then follow heat pipe from boiler...
stick hose on drain off and open ...

easy to try

 

[Stanios]

magna cant be blocked or shut of as the op has hot water the magna is where it is as theres no way to fit it adacent to boiler as pipework is to close to ceiling and any magna is better than none

No magna is better than a horizontal magna

 

[Radioman]

We had a super heating engineer from Shefford work on our property, came highly recommended by neighbours, always the best way imho, pm me for his details if you like. I warn you though he is very busy, like all great HE in my experience.

Am I right in thinking that under the latest regs only Competent Persons in other words Benchmark Members can work on central heating, either gas or electric, as it is now notifiable to building controls?

 

[AWheating]

We had a super heating engineer from Shefford work on our property, came highly recommended by neighbours, always the best way imho, pm me for his details if you like. I warn you though he is very busy, like all great HE in my experience.

Am I right in thinking that under the latest regs only Competent Persons in other words Benchmark Members can work on central heating, either gas or electric, as it is now notifiable to building controls?

Anyone can do anything in the uk tbh, but you must be competent in the eyes of the law to touch anything really, you can prove competency in gas and electrical installation/work by being a member of a competent persons scheme in theory.

any body can do plumbing and heating works, it's only when it goes wrong most people and companies question competence

 

[Radioman]

Anyone can do anything in the uk tbh, but you must be competent in the eyes of the law to touch anything really, you can prove competency in gas and electrical installation/work by being a member of a competent persons scheme in theory.

any body can do plumbing and heating works, it's only when it goes wrong most people and companies question competence

Not quite as simple as you make it sound. A quick google produced this from gov.uk

http://www.competentperson.co.uk/pdfs/buildingworkleaflet.pdf

Some surprising additions now just be notified, such as a new flat roof covering. Imho it's always best to notify, especially if you are planning on selling the property or need to make an insurance claim.

 

[newcastle phill]

What a crock - obviously not free

"Adding a radiator may need notifying"

Well i guess they are simply looking to raise new revenue streams of taxation. As simple as that in my view.

 

[Radioman]

What a crock - obviously not free

"Adding a radiator may need notifying"

Well i guess they are simply looking to raise new revenue streams of taxation. As simple as that in my view.

You think? Don't forget the major changes to the Consumer Act last October! I reckon about half the jobs I did between 10 and 20 years ago would need notification now. Eg new en suite, new cloakroom with EC, new bathroom lights, new HWC, new immersion heater element

 

[jtsplumbing]

You think? Don't forget the major changes to the Consumer Act last October! I reckon about half the jobs I did between 10 and 20 years ago would need notification now. Eg new en suite, new cloakroom with EC, new bathroom lights, new HWC, new immersion heater element

This is all very well But who is going monitor it, are we going to have notification police :bobby: knocking on peoples doors and asking to inspect there homes, and what about the DIY brigade ? who monitors them ?? Just waiting for when we have to notify how much toilet paper gets used . :toilet:

 

[plumben]

.

I'd say that your problem is most likely
air lock or pour balancing of the system,

You wont need a power flush and i cant see why you'd be happy to pay for one but not for just the materials for the original chap
however if you've lost confidence in him then that that

I'd get another couple of experienced heating engineers round to have a look, It's most likely something simple, and i wouldnt have any alterations done or powerflush until someones played with the system balancing and such

 

[AWheating]

Not quite as simple as you make it sound. A quick google produced this from gov.uk

http://www.competentperson.co.uk/pdfs/buildingworkleaflet.pdf

Some surprising additions now just be notified, such as a new flat roof covering. Imho it's always best to notify, especially if you are planning on selling the property or need to make an insurance claim.

for years and years many many jobs have been notifiable, probably a good percentage of work thats not a like for like swap has always been. What should be and what is done is a different matter.

The only trades that have any sort of policing is gas and electrical through its cps's however good you may feel this is currently done.

unless customers are willing to cover the huge cost increase in policing work done it will never change, from my experience most customers want the cheapest price and only care about such things as regulations when problems bite them.

 

[firemant]

Poor balancing won't stop heating working. It makes it less good, sometimes. Do we KNOW hot water is working well? If so, then the problem wil be air or blockage, either crud or partially open valve. IMO