New Bathroom questions

[redmohican]

Firstly, let me introduce myself, I'm Martin, and great when it comes to general decorating, but when it comes to Electrics and Plumbing, for me that is a job for the professionals.

My problem ....
I am normally very careful when choosing a professional, so when I needed a bathroom refurbishment, I placed the job on ratedpeople.com.
After several quotes, I chose who I thought was best for the job.
The work has been 'completed', and the contractor is returning next Monday (12 April), to finish the parts I am not happy with, but I am having E-mail arguments with him, and wondered if someone could tell me if he has done right, or if I am right to complain to him.

The problems are
1. When he fitted the shower pump and associated pipework, this was placed under the bath, and blocked in by a wooden side panel, tiled. I was told that this was ok, as should I ever need to get to the plumbing or pump, just break the tiles and panel, then replace. The more I think about this, the more I think he has done wrong.

2. The pump was connected to a triple valve, which controls the overhead shower, the handheld shower, and bath spout. However, whilst the pump turns on with the water, the pressure is nothing special to what I had before. I was told I needed a 2 bar pump, and got a Salamander 2.4 bar pump.

3. The bathroom sink had it's pluming replaced, again with all of the pipework being boarded, plastered and tiled in (this I hasten to add was the contractors choice, sating this was best).
But, the water from the mixer tap on the sink is literally a dribble. It is not connected to the pump.
Before the work was carried out, I had strong pressure from the cold tap on the sink, and ok pressure from the hot. Now, to fill the sink, it takes in excess of 5 minutes!
The contractor has said that he cannot do anything about this because I did not have the pump connected to the sink. Should I at least still have the same pressure as I had before the refurbishment?

I am sorry if this is a lot to ask for a first thread, but I have literally used every last penny of my savings to get this work completed, and am worried it is money down the drain (or bathroom overflow!)

Many thanks in advance for any advice anyone can please give.
Martin

 

[WHPES]

1, Can you not just remove the wooden side panel for access and put it back afterwards? Why would you need to break tiles? If not, very stupid. Pump should be accessible for routine maintenance -cleaning pump strainers etc done annually.

2, 2.4 bar pump should really throw water out. Valve arrangement should be OK provided you aren't opening more than 1 valve at a time, but normally bath spout not pumped. Perhaps your new mixer is higher volume than the old one so seems weaker. Check pipework to pump is in 22mm and not 15mm or that's your problem. Hot pipe to pump should come directly from cylinder using Essex flange with no other connections between. Cold should come directly from tank in loft with no other connections. All in 22mm.

3, Pump should not be connected to the sink taps. Is there a flexi hose under the basin which is kinked?

 

[stevetheplumber]

as the customer its your job to say what you want no good waiting till its finished however the plumber also has a duty to do it right so with hold PARTpayment till its right

 

[redmohican]

1, Can you not just remove the wooden side panel for access and put it back afterwards? Why would you need to break tiles? If not, very stupid. Pump should be accessible for routine maintenance -cleaning pump strainers etc done annually.

2, 2.4 bar pump should really throw water out. Valve arrangement should be OK provided you aren't opening more than 1 valve at a time, but normally bath spout not pumped. Perhaps your new mixer is higher volume than the old one so seems weaker. Check pipework to pump is in 22mm and not 15mm or that's your problem. Hot pipe to pump should come directly from cylinder using Essex flange with no other connections between. Cold should come directly from tank in loft with no other connections. All in 22mm.

3, Pump should not be connected to the sink taps. Is there a flexi hose under the basin which is kinked?

Thankyou for the reply.
To answer:
1. The reason I would need to break tiles to access the pump is because the contractor boarded in the side of the bath, and tiled over, as he said this was the best way. I really am not an expert, so like so many people who experience problems, took the experts advice.

2. I have no idea what mm the piping is, as it is all boarded and tiled away. I did say that I thought the panels should be removable, but was told this was not necessary.
As for the water pressure using the pump, it comes out at a pressure that is ok, but nothing spectacular, so definitely it is not throwing the water out.

3. Yes, I know the contractor used a flexi hose under the sink, as he made this an added extra onto the job. Again I don't know if this is kinked because of the way it is hidden.

The Contractor is returning next Monday to second coat the door and door frame, and to sort out where the ceiling paint ran into the grouting, hence my wanting to get some facts to confront him with.
I have searched the net (and failed!) for legal specifications on how this should have been fitted, as I can see him saying to me 'what do they know?' when I show him the responses on this forum. Hope you can understand where I am coming from.

as the customer its your job to say what you want no good waiting till its finished however the plumber also has a duty to do it right so with hold PARTpayment till its right

Unfortunately, I have a really small bathroom (7 feet by 6 feet, the toilet is separate), so I wasn't able to go in at the same time he carried out the work. All I could see was the aesthetics of it when he said it was finished, and like any job, I have found out that looks are not always everything.

I have withheld the outstanding money until he comes back. He E-mailed me last night wanting a bank transfer, and I explained, not until I am satisfied.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

i'm against this rated people and that as you cannot quote for a job with out seeing it

The pump dioes need to be accessed and unless its a super hightech jobby that i dont even think is made it will be air cooled and as such will require ventilation. Under the bath is generally a NO NO and it should be as close to the HW cylinder as poss

A 2.4 bar pump is the sort that should 'throw' water out so sometihng is up, where and how has the hot water connection been made?

Check the instructions of the pump which will of course have been left by your installer for site locations and fitting as if this is not follwed warranty is out of the window.

Is the tap that is fitted to the sink a low pressure tap suitable for a gravity system?

 

[WHPES]

If you want a tiled bath panel the proper way is to cut the board to size and tile it, then drill through the tiles and board where it is to be fastened and screw it complete with tiles to the frame, using mirror screws (with the caps) so that it can be taken off again.

Don't pay ANY more money until absolutely EVERYTHING is sorted and working correctly. Your plumber is not entitled to payment until completion of the job, and if there are still outstanding issues, the job is not complete.

 

[Phil]

Sounds like the poor hot flow on the basin mixertap is down to the wrong tap, most basin mixer's are only really designed for mains pressure water as the gravity hot struggles to get through the narrow waterways. The problem can be reduced slightly be using full bore isolating valves and copper tails sometimes.

I never fit them to unbalanced feeds without warning the customer before hand of the reduced hot flow.

Make sure he's put a non return valve on the hot feed (low pressure flap type) if he hasn't it needs one on.

 

[moony]

tell him the shower pump needs to be accessable for maintenance and servicing!
say your not or expecting anyone else to break tiles off whenever it needs to be maintained.

as others have said taps are not always compatible with gravity fed systems! should of been checked before fitting....

sometimes these rated sites arent the best option!

 

[redmohican]

i'm against this rated people and that as you cannot quote for a job with out seeing it

The pump does need to be accessed and unless its a super hightech job that i dont even think is made it will be air cooled and as such will require ventilation. Under the bath is generally a NO NO and it should be as close to the HW cylinder as poss

A 2.4 bar pump is the sort that should 'throw' water out so something is up, where and how has the hot water connection been made?

Check the instructions of the pump which will of course have been left by your installer for site locations and fitting as if this is not followed warranty is out of the window.

Is the tap that is fitted to the sink a low pressure tap suitable for a gravity system?

Firstly thankyou to everyone for your help so far.
To be fair to ratedpeople.com, all of the contractors came around to my home to quote. I had also purchased everything needed (except any plumbing supplies), which the contractor checked.

As I have said previously, I have no idea where the connections on the pump are made, as I cannot see anything. I'm getting more worried by the hour now reading these replies.
Is there any regulatory body for this kind of work does anyone know please?

If you want a tiled bath panel the proper way is to cut the board to size and tile it, then drill through the tiles and board where it is to be fastened and screw it complete with tiles to the frame, using mirror screws (with the caps) so that it can be taken off again.

Don't pay ANY more money until absolutely EVERYTHING is sorted and working correctly. Your plumber is not entitled to payment until completion of the job, and if there are still outstanding issues, the job is not complete.

Exactly what I asked for, but the contractor said his way was best.
I have never been able to afford a special bathroom before, and this was going to be my dream. I think a nightmare is beginning.
I won't be paying any more money, and if he gets really stroppy, I will threaten court action perhaps?

Sounds like the poor hot flow on the basin mixertap is down to the wrong tap, most basin mixer's are only really designed for mains pressure water as the gravity hot struggles to get through the narrow waterways. The problem can be reduced slightly be using full bore isolating valves and copper tails sometimes.

I never fit them to unbalanced feeds without warning the customer before hand of the reduced hot flow.

Make sure he's put a non return valve on the hot feed (low pressure flap type) if he hasn't it needs one on.

Thankyou, I will ask him about the valve. I was never told of any problems before it was fitted.

 

[WHPES]

I had a similar job to go and sort out (leaking under bath). The bath panel was tiled and I had to smash it off. It was hiding some very shoddy workmanship plus an assortment of pizza boxes, *** packets, fish and chip wrappers and general rubbish which had been swept under the bath.

Another thing you need to check is has the bath been set into the wall if it is a solid wall, and plasteted back in or has it simply been pushed up against the wall and fixed?

Does any of the wall where the shower is have plasterboard behind the tiles as if it does, if it gets wet it will disintegrate?

Make sure you have enough spare tiles so that the bath panel can be redone properly.

 

[redmohican]

I had a similar job to go and sort out (leaking under bath). The bath panel was tiled and I had to smash it off. It was hiding some very shoddy workmanship plus an assortment of pizza boxes, *** packets, fish and chip wrappers and general rubbish which had been swept under the bath.

Another thing you need to check is has the bath been set into the wall if it is a solid wall, and plasteted back in or has it simply been pushed up against the wall and fixed?

Does any of the wall where the shower is have plasterboard behind the tiles as if it does, if it gets wet it will disintegrate?

Make sure you have enough spare tiles so that the bath panel can be redone properly.

Thankyou for the reply.
As far as I know (and saw before the panel was put on, the only thing under the bath was a lot of polystyrene packaging, that the contractor put there to further deaden the noise of the pump.

As for the shower wall, this was a wooden wall (wood bought by contractor), that was tiled over, it wasn't plastered, or plaster board used.

I do have enough tiles for the panel to be done properly (luckily).

 

[WHPES]

If the pump has been surrounded by polystyrene packaging it will overheat and burn out through lack of ventilation.

You deaden the noise by placing it on an acoustic pad.

Timber will be OK provided it is proper marine ply.

 

[redmohican]

Hi all,

I have the link below for my sink tap, so you can see that it should give more than a dribble:
Metro basin mono mixer

The contractor is returning to me tomorrow (Monday at 8am), so would be grateful for some urgent advice, as I will be printing this forum out to show to him.
Ok, the question is, as a qualified plumber, what trade bodies (if any) should he belong to, I don't know if there are any in the same way that Gas have Gassafe etc, or are there Plumbing Ombudsmen, as I cannot find any apart from AHPC, and I don't know ifd these are an official body?

The reason I am asking this is because I can see an argument looming, and if so I would need to take this further.
I still owe the contractor money, which he will not get until I am 100% satisfied, and even then I think I would be within my rights to withhold money if he he replaces the bath panel (as you all on here have kindly said is wrong), as this will cost me money in tiles etc.

Thankyou all on here for being so helpful. I am broke after having this work done, and could not afford to have another contractor in to rectify these problems if the current one will not.

 

[WHPES]

There is no official body for general plumbing. Some plumbers belong to AHPC or other plumbing bodies but this is voluntary, and membership of some bodies means little.

However it is reasonable to expect a good standard of workmanship, and it is also expected that items are installed in line with manufacturers instructions.

Please refer to the Supply of Goods and Services Act (loads of info on the net about your rights under this.

You are quite within your rights to hold money until the job is completed (see also SOGASA). Until everything is functioning properly and installed in line with recognised practice and manufacturer's specifications (unless agreed beforehand), the job is NOT classed as completed. You should put in writing that you are not refusing to pay for the work, but are more than happy to pay for the work once it is completed satisfatorily.

I would also recommend you contact Trading Standards beforehand just for advice at the moment - they will advise you as how to handle this, and if you end up in a dispute they will be able to advise you further.

For example it is reasonable to expect the tap to function correctly and the shower to work well therefore the job is not completed until this is rectified.

However it is not reasonable to withold payment because you didn't like the style of the tap (if supplied by the plumber) after it had been fitted, as the style should have been agreed before fitting.

On a personal level, as what I would hope people consider to be a reputable tradesmen, I would not leave a customer with any issues like that. My own pride in the job and attention to detail and customer satisfaction is of paramount importance to getting a good reputation. I would certainly not be asking for final payments until my customer was happy with everything. The customer will recommend you to others and a professional attitude like that is the best advert you can have.

 

[redmohican]

Thankyou so much WHPES, the information you have given is invaluable, and very much appreciated.

 

[Phil]

Could I be really cheeky redmohican and ask what price he is doing this work for?

I understand if you don't want to say.

What terms and condtions do 'rated people' have? I don't suppose you could compain to them? I imagine it will be at your own risk.

Also ring the pump manufacturer and ask about the pump, this could give you more leverage.

 

[redmohican]

Could I be really cheeky redmohican and ask what price he is doing this work for?

I understand if you don't want to say.

What terms and condtions do 'rated people' have? I don't suppose you could compain to them? I imagine it will be at your own risk.

Also ring the pump manufacturer and ask about the pump, this could give you more leverage.

No problem, I have nothing to hide.
Firstly, let me give you the description I put on ratedpeople.com .......

Removal of Steel bath and ceramic sink. Installation of new Steel bath and sink, with associated new taps, overflows etc. Also, install a small stud wall at back of bath to install an over bath shower and a 3 way valve mixer system. All taps for bath will be on this wall. An electric pump will also need to be installed for the water pressure. Also, to re-tile and paint woodwork and ceiling in the bathroom. All products required for this work have been purchased. Please note, this is a very small bathroom measuring approx. 7feet by 6feet. No quotes will be accepted if the completed work will cost more than £1500 incl. VAT

So, as you can see, everything was pre-purchased, and was of high spec quality.
The only things I didn't have was materials for the false wall, and any copper piping needed, but I was told this was no problem, as the whole job could be completed foe £1500 incl. VAT.
The reason I stated the £1500 incl. VAT was because I got other quotes of the same from other contractors.
However, I was presented with a bill after the first day (which has yet to be paid by me, for the materials for the stud wall, copper piping, and flexi drainage pipes, as I was told this was now necessary. Ok, the bill for all of this comes to £70, and I would have paid it straight away if everything was perfect and working in the first place.

As for ratedpeople, this is recommended by many newspapers such as The Guardian and Metro, but of course, you are going by other customers feedback for guidance, and ratedpeople.com have no responsibility over the work. I will however let my feelings be known if all does not go well tomorrow.

As you have suggested, I will call Salamander pumps tomorrow for more advice.

Thankyou for helping me.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

im sure salamander will be saying you will be waving good bye to your Pumps warranty which is bad when its not cheap to have a pump. Good thinking printing off the thread!
Keep us informed as we are all interested in how you get on

 

[redmohican]

im sure salamander will be saying you will be waving good bye to your Pumps warranty which is bad when its not cheap to have a pump. Good thinking printing off the thread!
Keep us informed as we are all interested in how you get on

I have contacted Salamander, and spoke to Phil in Technical. WOW! how helpful was this man. He is sending me the documents that the contractor discarded, and is going to send me an interim E-mail so that I can show the contractor where he has gone wrong.
This is Customer Service at its best. Thankyou Salamander.

All I need now is for the Contractor to turn up - so far no show as at 14.17 on 12 April 2010.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

to be honest thats what I would have expected from Salamander, tey are pretty good

You've got to think that if he has sited the pump wrongly, apcked it wrongly with polysyrene then like he has made the hot connection to in the wrong place

 

[redmohican]

Thanks Tom, I was thinking the same.

By the way, for any further post, my name is Martin (cannot find where to edit this!)

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

No problem Martin

Have you taken photographs of everything, just in case?

 

[redmohican]

No problem Martin

Have you taken photographs of everything, just in case?

I took photo's before the work, during, and after, although some of the in between work could not be photographed as it was boarded up too quick.

I have 116 pics. Think that's enough

It is now 18.07 on 12 April 2010, and no word from the contractor, with my calls and texts being ignored - not looking good eh?

I'm now pre-empting myself and have prepared an official letter to send to the contractor at 15.00 tomorrow if I hear nothing, and have been looking into the Small Claims Court should all else fail.

I really wish I had found UK Plumbers Forum before I had the work carried out, and found someone reliable.

 

[Phil]

It sounds like maybe the plumber was out of his depth?

How long has he been plumbing?

I know its easy to critisise in these situations but he has not done himself any favours regarding not turning up.

He may have decided to cut his losses and walk away.

 

[WHPES]

Have a word with Trading Standards - they will help you with your letter as there are certain terms which you should use.

Unfortunately it sounds like you've been had by a cowboy plumber.

 

[redmohican]

Have a word with Trading Standards - they will help you with your letter as there are certain terms which you should use.

Unfortunately it sounds like you've been had by a cowboy plumber.

Thankyou, I have an appointment with them later today (Tuesday).

UPDATE: 13.36 13 April 2010

This is unbelievable. Please read this and laugh or weep (because I don't know what to do!) ...

The contractor turned up, and I pointed out, in a friendly manner, the long list of problems with the bathroom. After saying that there was nothing he could do, and asking who told me that his work was wrong (I quoted this forum, showing printouts, and also advice from Trading Standards), he then walked to my front door, held out his hand for me to shake, and said ...
" Thankyou Martin, Nice to meet you, goodbye".

And off he walked.
I have contacted Trading Standards again who have given me advice on the letter to send (which I will today by Special Delivery), and I will then, if no reply, take legal action against this company who puts you professionals into a bad light.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

sounds like a watch dog rogue traders contact to time

If you gave him time to put it right snd he didnt even bother to show up you were doin the right thing in coming here and Trading Standards

It looks like it will cost you a little more to go down the route of the small claims court if thats what your looking to do but at least you didnt pay out the full whack

Any chance of uuploading some of the photos?

Did you show him what the pump manufacturer said

 

[Blackcatgas]

Ive not alot more to add as WHPES has said it all really, the low pressure at the taps is probably because they are for high pressure installations, it sounds like you supplied the taps so id just take that one on the chin.
If you havent paid the man all the money, will the money youve got left pay for somone else to put the work right?.

 

[redmohican]

Just to let you all have an update.
90 minutes ago, I had a phone call from the contractor telling me that he does good work, does not like a list of his bad work being shown to him, and cannot believe that I discussed it on this professional forum.
Without going into detail, he has threatened to kill me in the street, or when he waits outside my home, and is going to break into my home and smash it up.
I did not get into conversation (the above is the polite way he spoke to me), nor did I get angry with him, but the matter is now with the Police, as to be honest, I am scared.
This contractor said to me when he started, if ever I promise something or say something, "I do it".
I have the Police coming round later, and Trading Standards are being a total godsend to me with help.

I will need to get 3 quotes from Plumbers/ Bathroom Fitters, in case I need to sue, who can rectify this work, so any recommendations, from you, the professionals will be appreciated.

This has honestly been the worst most scary day of my life.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

you've done the right thing by phoning the police but I cant say much than that, I assume you have his business address details for the Police to pay him a visit.

Your not the first person to be ripped off by a cowboy and certainly not the last

Its natural to be scard but in reality he's just angry that he couldn't pull a fast one on you and get out and get paid

 

[Phil]

Unbeleivable

Not only a cowboy but a psycho to boot, .......speechless!!

I hope the fact he has threatend to kill you won't have any bearing on your giving him a good report on Rated people.com.

 

[WHPES]

I expect the police will pay him a visit so he'll be aware he's being watched.

I expect it's bluster as he's annoyed that he was rumbled before he managed to fleece you. Keep on with Trading Standards - they may pick up the baton for you to an extent.

If he did good work as he says, rest assured there would have been no major problems and any small ones he would have gone out of his way to ensure they were put right.

I got done by a rogue contractor a few years ago and I'm a bit like a terrier - I don't let go. What he doesn't know is that I have had people watching him for the last 4 years to see what he gets up to. As soon as it looks he has something worthwhile, the bailiffs will be pouncing again.

 

[redmohican]

you've done the right thing by phoning the police but I cant say much than that, I assume you have his business address details for the Police to pay him a visit.

Your not the first person to be ripped off by a cowboy and certainly not the last

Its natural to be scard but in reality he's just angry that he couldn't pull a fast one on you and get out and get paid

Sadly, this has got even worse, but I cannot say about it on here. The Police are now actively involved because of further developments.
Thankyou everyone on here for your advice and support.

 

[bcp]

redmohican - I am truly sorry to learn of your experiences. From a slightly different perspective, can you please tell me/us (I am happy to have a private message) why you chose this particular contractor and why you specifically rejected any others. Was it cost, or what he told you, or claimed ??? Did you look elsewhere other than the web? Did you check any qualifications - did he claim to have any (to state my position on quals, I am not a believer that the entire world must have a paper ticket in order to be able to work or gain experience - in any sphere). everyone has to learn somewhere. I am just interested in your decision process.

 

[redmohican]

redmohican - I am truly sorry to learn of your experiences. From a slightly different perspective, can you please tell me/us (I am happy to have a private message) why you chose this particular contractor and why you specifically rejected any others. Was it cost, or what he told you, or claimed ??? Did you look elsewhere other than the web? Did you check any qualifications - did he claim to have any (to state my position on quals, I am not a believer that the entire world must have a paper ticket in order to be able to work or gain experience - in any sphere). everyone has to learn somewhere. I am just interested in your decision process.

I can answer all of this on this forum, as I am not naming names in public. The answers to your questions are:

1. I chose this contractor because he was recommended by the reviews of others on ratedpeople.com. In case people do not know how this site works, you list the job you want doing, and the 'professionals' who have been checked out by the site then say that they would like to give you a quote on the job. You are sent 3 contractors. If you do not like their quotes, then you re-list the job for the next 3 quotes etc etc.
The contractor I chose was because of several factors, he had glowing reviews, his past work on his website was excellent, and I spoke to a satisfied customer. Also, he was the only contractor who knew what a 3 way valve was and how to fit it (ok I have now found out he didn't, but art the time etc etc).

2. The price this contractor was charging was what I thought to be the best price for the job. I made enquiries with Trading Standards before I got any quotes and they told me that you should pay approx the same for installation as you do for the items to be fixed. This contractor met the criteria.

3. My bathroom is only 7 feet by 6 feet (the toilet is seperate), so it is really small, and this contractor said the work would be completed in a maximum of 7 days. Others said 3-4 weeks. Onbe said 10-12 weeks!

4. As for qualifications, I hold my hand up and say that I didn't check, although I did check that he was registered with Companies House. Also, a lot of the time, recommendations and word of mouth can be the best qualification, I thought. I now know that to be only partially true.

5. As for Phil asking about my rating for the contractor on ratedpeople.com, when I contacted them, they asked me to send a list of the problems which they posted as my review to ward off others. Evidently it's 3 strikes and you are out on that site.

Hope that answers everything.