Pump hoses can be bent?

[Jurgenjay]

Hi,

I just had a shower pump installed, but the manufactory Salamander Pumps Technical Advisor said :"The silver anti vibration hoses are bent 90 degrees. These are to be straight as per manufactory installation guide. For this reason, as how it has been installed it will not validate the warranty."

I checked with the installer who said: the hoses are flexible, it can be bent, it's no problem.

I don't know which one is correct, please would you check the photos of the pump and confirm if it is OK?

Thanks in advance!

 

[king of pipes]

As you were advise by salamander the flexible connections need to be straight as they are there is a possibility of restriction of the water and collapse of the pipe . Kop

 

[SimonG]

They're not flexible connections, they're anti vibration connections.

So you have a poor pump, poorly installed.

 

[Jurgenjay]

As you were advise by salamander the flexible connections need to be straight as they are there is a possibility of restriction of the water and collapse of the pipe . Kop

Thanks! I got it now!

 

[Jurgenjay]

They're not flexible connections, they're anti vibration connections.

So you have a poor pump, poorly installed.

What a mistake! What a pity! The plumber does not know it....

 

[king of pipes]

He only needs to follow simple manufacturers instructions

 

[Jurgenjay]

He only needs to follow simple manufacturers instructions

I know nothing about the plumbing but after reading the screenshot you sent, I even know it should not be bent!
Cowboys anywhere.....

 

[SJB060685]

He only needs to follow simple manufacturers instructions

Let’s be honest. How many handymen read instructions?

 

[Jurgenjay]

Let’s be honest. How many handymen read instructions?

They may not ready it but the anti vibration connections should not be bent & be straight, a qualified plumber should know it?

 

[SJB060685]

They may not ready it but the anti vibration connections should not be bent & be straight, a qualified plumber should know it?

A reputable plumber will read the MI’s before installing a product. Different manufacturers require different things to work properly and not to void any warranty. Yes the plumber should have read the paperwork.

 

[Jurgenjay]

A reputable plumber will read the MI’s before installing a product. Different manufacturers require different things to work properly and not to void any warranty. Yes the plumber should have read the paperwork.

Thank you!
Unfortunately he did not. And when I asked him to rectify it he is asking me to pay for it....

 

[SJB060685]

He’s your typical bloke. Refuses to read instructions and thinks they know best.
The hoses are not installed correctly. Not only will they cause a restriction in flow but they will also likely cause the pump to vibrate. The copper pipe that the hoses connect to are not clipped or secured properly either. This will likely cause even more vibration.
Explain this to the installer and give him a chance to rectify at no additional cost. If he refuses to then you will have to hire someone else to make right and bill the original installer for the money paid to rectify it.

 

[Jurgenjay]

He’s your typical bloke. Refuses to read instructions and thinks they know best.
The hoses are not installed correctly. Not only will they cause a restriction in flow but they will also likely cause the pump to vibrate. The copper pipe that the hoses connect to are not clipped or secured properly either. This will likely cause even more vibration.
Explain this to the installer and give him a chance to rectify at no additional cost. If he refuses to then you will have to hire someone else to make right and bill the original installer for the money paid to rectify it.

Thank you again! You are talking in the reasonable way!
But he is even asking money for rectifying the mistake, he would not accept the bill that I find someone else for sure!

 

[Chuck]

But he is even asking money for rectifying the mistake, he would not accept the bill that I find someone else for sure!

If you go about it the right way he won't have a choice.

Making a small claim

Find out what to do before you start a small claim, how to start one and what it involves.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk

 

[SJB060685]

As Chuck has pointed out above he will have no choice if approached properly and politely.
He’s carried out work that is not to an acceptable standard or compliant for the manufacturers warranty. You have to give him a chance to come back and make right. If he refuses to then take the legal route.
Looking at the quality of the install and the fact that he says it’s fine I highly doubt he gets much work and if faced with the possibility of a court case he might sort his act out.
We all make mistakes, I made a lot at college when starting out but he has to be given a reasonable chance. This is now more of a legal matter rather than a plumbing one and I’m not familiar with small claims etc thankfully.

 

[Jurgenjay]

If you go about it the right way he won't have a choice.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...ystem/small-claims/making-a-small-claim/[/URL

Thank you for this advice!
For a couple of hundred pound to go to court, this may be the reason lots of people just give up....
And this kind of cowboys know people won't go that far that's why they dare to asking money after making a mistake.

 

[Jurgenjay]

As Chuck has pointed out above he will have no choice if approached properly and politely.
He’s carried out work that is not to an acceptable standard or compliant for the manufacturers warranty. You have to give him a chance to come back and make right. If he refuses to then take the legal route.
Looking at the quality of the install and the fact that he says it’s fine I highly doubt he gets much work and if faced with the possibility of a court case he might sort his act out.
We all make mistakes, I made a lot at college when starting out but he has to be given a reasonable chance. This is now more of a legal matter rather than a plumbing one and I’m not familiar with small claims etc thankfully.

I did give him a chance by asking him to rectify the mistake, but he said the manufactory lied because they don't want to do warranty....
And he insists on extra money to go back to put those hoses straight up.

This kind of people being polite to them is not useful as they don't care right or wrong, what they care is money only.

 

[SimonG]

I did give him a chance by asking him to rectify the mistake, but he said the manufactory lied because they don't want to do warranty....
And he insists on extra money to go back to put those hoses straight up.

This kind of people being polite to them is not useful as they don't care right or wrong, what they care is money only.

Put it in writing with a copy of the manufacturers installation instructions. Just state you are formally giving him chance to correct his work prior to employing a third party to correct the works and will then pursue through the relevant channels for recovery of costs to rectify and costs involved in pursuing the money.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Put it in writing with a copy of the manufacturers installation instructions. Just state you are formally giving him chance to correct his work prior to employing a third party to correct the works and will then pursue through the relevant channels for recovery of costs to rectify and costs involved in pursuing the money.

Thanks Simon!
If he insists on money to go back, then I will have to find someone else.
But to purse the money that I have to pay someone to rectify the work, can I claim his insurance? Or I will have to go to court?
Will claiming the insurance be easier?

 

[Chuck]

can I claim his insurance? Or I will have to go to court?
Will claiming the insurance be easier?

No, you can't claim on his insurance. Your contract is with the plumber. He gets to choose whether to pass your claim on to his insurers or deal with it himself.

If you win a small claims court action you get your costs back.

Some household insurance policies include legal advice and cover for legal costs. Check your policy.

 

[king of pipes]

How much money are we talking here ?? It shouldn't cost that much to improve on what you have , the usual route is phone call or email to give him the chance to correct the install provide proof of the fault you are claiming if you are ignored, put your complaint in writing is the next step again with a copy of the manufacturers instructions page the next course should be the small claims court route, personally I'd put it down to experience get it corrected send him the bill requesting a percentage back, I very much doubt you will be reimbursed the full amount but remain calm and polite at all times and you may have some success any monies you can recover will help. Regards kop

 

[Jurgenjay]

No, you can't claim on his insurance. Your contract is with the plumber. He gets to choose whether to pass your claim on to his insurers or deal with it himself.

If you win a small claims court action you get your costs back.

Some household insurance policies include legal advice and cover for legal costs. Check your policy.

Thanks for your explanation!
I was told before that I could claim the tradesman's insurance, it seems this is not the case now.

Thanks again for your advice!

 

[Jurgenjay]

How much money are we talking here ?? It shouldn't cost that much to improve on what you have , the usual route is phone call or email to give him the chance to correct the install provide proof of the fault you are claiming if you are ignored, put your complaint in writing is the next step again with a copy of the manufacturers instructions page the next course should be the small claims court route, personally I'd put it down to experience get it corrected send him the bill requesting a percentage back, I very much doubt you will be reimbursed the full amount but remain calm and polite at all times and you may have some success any monies you can recover will help. Regards kop

Thank you very much! Very helpful!

 

[Charles C Tesch]

As you were advise by salamander the flexible connections need to be straight as they are there is a possibility of restriction of the water and collapse of the pipe . Kop

I also join with you. Keep your connection straight to avoid future issues that could affect your water quality or cause pipe damage.

 

[Jurgenjay]

I also join with you. Keep your connection straight to avoid future issues that could affect your water quality or cause pipe damage.

Thank you! Got it!

 

[Ric2013]

HE could claim on his insurance if being sued, but unlikely that it will cover this. My broker explained it to me like this:

If you are installing [a shower pump] and you do a bad job of it, the insurance doesn't cover. You can't insure for bad work. On the other hand, if, in the process of installing, you drop it on the customer's foot and they end up off work, or a water connection you are removing turns out to be full of water and you flood the house, that's what you're insured for.

 

[Jurgenjay]

HE could claim on his insurance if being sued, but unlikely that it will cover this. My broker explained it to me like this:

If you are installing [a shower pump] and you do a bad job of it, the insurance doesn't cover. You can't insure for bad work. On the other hand, if, in the process of installing, you drop it on the customer's foot and they end up off work, or a water connection you are removing turns out to be full of water and you flood the house, that's what you're insured for.

Thank you very much!

Your broker's explanation does sound the normal case in terms of insurance is about.

It seems that if a tradesman does a bad job and being irresponsible, the only way to get it right is to take him to court---but this needs proof and take time and effort, therefore lots of household customers will just take it as it is... sad story and reality!

 

[king of pipes]

Insurance is a necessary evil I recently renewed my public liability often installers insure themselves as plumbing and heating engineers thinking it covers them for the work they carry out It doesn't, until I put all my insurance policies in the hands of a broker , I found out I wasn't covered for all the work I carry out , typically bathroom installations we need to add other trades to our insurance - minor building works , tiling, painting decorating, electrical work , floor laying and list every type of work we do , Hot work , working at height in lofts in consealed spaces to be covered and also anything we carry in our vehicles which could be dangerous . My understanding is if we carry out work and that work then fails and causes damage to your property or yourselves then there's blame so your entitled to make a claim, that work could be poor as yours or be the perfect installation, but a component fails and leaks causing damage it's not untill there's damage can a claim be made.
You cannot make a claim for poor workmanship unfortunately until it fails and causes damage Regards kop

 

[Jurgenjay]

Insurance is a necessary evil I recently renewed my public liability often installers insure themselves as plumbing and heating engineers thinking it covers them for the work they carry out It doesn't, until I put all my insurance policies in the hands of a broker , I found out I wasn't covered for all the work I carry out , typically bathroom installations we need to add other trades to our insurance - minor building works , tiling, painting decorating, electrical work , floor laying and list every type of work we do , Hot work , working at height in lofts in consealed spaces to be covered and also anything we carry in our vehicles which could be dangerous . My understanding is if we carry out work and that work then fails and causes damage to your property or yourselves then there's blame so your entitled to make a claim, that work could be poor as yours or be the perfect installation, but a component fails and leaks causing damage it's not untill there's damage can a claim be made.
You cannot make a claim for poor workmanship unfortunately until it fails and causes damage Regards kop

Thank you for the explanation! I can understand the difference.

All you said is from a plumber/gas engineer side if they can claim insurance, right?

So from customer side, if customer wants to get the damage-caused cost back, they have to take the tradesman to court so the tradesman then can see if they can claim insurance, right?
As earlier reply said, household customers cannot claim tradesman's insurance, they can only sue them so the tradesman will see if they claim insurance.

My above understanding is right?

 

[Chuck]

So from customer side, if customer wants to get the damage-caused cost back, they have to take the tradesman to court so the tradesman then can see if they can claim insurance, right?

That's one option. The other is to claim under your own house insurance and your insurers will attempt to recover their costs from the tradesman.

All the advice in this thread is for the typical case. You need to check your own insurance and the terms and conditions attached to the contract you have with the plumber and probably consult a lawyer to be absolutely sure what applies in your own specific circumstances.

You need to check the credentials and experience of any plumber you employ. It is not a regulated profession so there are some cowboys. Best to go with a local firm that's been in business for a significant time and employs properly trained people. You want their reputation to be "quite expensive, careful work, excellent result" not "lowest quote, fast work, corners cut"

Also, unless you have a lot of time on your hands, it's not worth kicking up a fuss for work that's only going to cost a couple of hundred quid to have put right by someone competent. Write it off to experience and be careful to check the reputation of anyone who you use in future.

 

[Jurgenjay]

That's one option. The other is to claim under your own house insurance and your insurers will attempt to recover their costs from the tradesman.

All the advice in this thread is for the typical case. You need to check your own insurance and the terms and conditions attached to the contract you have with the plumber and probably consult a lawyer to be absolutely sure what applies in your own specific circumstances.

You need to check the credentials and experience of any plumber you employ. It is not a regulated profession so there are some cowboys. Best to go with a local firm that's been in business for a significant time and employs properly trained people. You want their reputation to be "quite expensive, careful work, excellent result" not "lowest quote, fast work, corners cut"

Also, unless you have a lot of time on your hands, it's not worth kicking up a fuss for work that's only going to cost a couple of hundred quid to have put right by someone competent. Write it off to experience and be careful to check the reputation of anyone who you use in future.

I agree with you for nearly everything you said!
Actually, as a customer, personally, I don't mind paying more for some competent tradesman to do a trouble-free job, he gets paid I have no issue left!---I wish I had a crystal ball!
However, it is difficult to choose the right person, for example, I normally find tradesman on Checkatrade, I check reviews first, the issue is everyone seems have good reviews....

 

[Ric2013]

I agree with you for nearly everything you said!
Actually, as a customer, personally, I don't mind paying more for some competent tradesman to do a trouble-free job, he gets paid I have no issue left!---I wish I had a crystal ball!
However, it is difficult to choose the right person, for example, I normally find tradesman on Checkatrade, I check reviews first, the issue is everyone seems have good reviews....

I actually know of a plumber in Essex who did some work for the mother of a personal friend of mine (now my customer!). Fitted new boiler without a system filter (he did give her a discount, in fairness), claiming inadequate space to fit one (I later fitted one retrospectively). This was after the lady called Baxi out who replaced the boiler heat exchanger under warranty when it blocked with system debris. The installer also fitted her programmer in an idiotic way such that the cables pulled out and then refused to rectify at a weekend (customer is a vulnerable person). The Benchmark certificate did not specify which brand of corrosion inhibitor was used, which hardly fills one with confidence.

Saw some online reviews (can't remember the platform) in which this installer is praised for providing a cheaper price and letting the customer know a powerflush wasn't needed, advice that differed from what some others had previously told this reviewer. Wonder if that reviewer will feel the same when the new boiler fails due to poor system water quality (powerflushes aren't always vital as there are other methods to clean a system, but simply omitting the powerflush to save time is not a valid method)? His customer (now my customer [manic laugh]) tried to leave a negative review and the installer managed to bully her into removing it.

 

[SJB060685]

It is a well known fact that no decent tradesman uses websites like checkatrade. Good professionals do not need websites like that to generate them an income. They are often fully booked for months at a time, sometimes more. They don’t come cheap but you get passion, pride and top quality results. Anyone who relies on places like checkatrade is nine times out of ten an inept person who is struggling for income and needs quick work. Admittedly some on these sites will be competent but very few. I see adverts for these places frequently and how they claim to police the sites and whittle out any bad eggs but I’m not convinced because all too often do we here horror stories such as you’ve experienced.

 

[king of pipes]

It is a well known fact that no decent tradesman uses websites like checkatrade. Good professionals do not need websites like that to generate them an income. They are often fully booked for months at a time, sometimes more. They don’t come cheap but you get passion, pride and top quality results. Anyone who relies on places like checkatrade is nine times out of ten an inept person who is struggling for income and needs quick work. Admittedly some on these sites will be competent but very few. I see adverts for these places frequently and how they claim to police the sites and whittle out any bad eggs but I’m not convinced because all too often do we here horror stories such as you’ve experienced.

Well said my friend that's exactly how it is I've never advertised don't do social media or have a website , and am always busy often to busy I've tried working with others but its never worked out they never put the same effort in as you say lack passion but still expect top dollar . Kop

 

[Ric2013]

I've been abroad for two years and I would need to advertise as I currently have no plumbing work on. I don't see that not advertising is a better plan, quite frankly. Have had one day's paid work in two months, and one lead by recommendation that I had to turn down as I wasn't qualified for the task in hand. Waiting to build up a trade by recommendations is a very slow and expensive process, especially in snobby areas like this where people don't talk to one another. Many firms advertise. In theory I disapprove, but not in practice!

Having said that, I'm not currently advertising as I have a lot of personal stuff on that means I'm busy with other stuff that I don't really need the work. Also I'll need to go abroad again for a couple of months in a few weeks, and so I wouldn't be able to provide the service I would be advertising and I'd just get a reputation for being unreliable. Plus, with 100,000 cases of Covid a day, I'd rather not mix with too many other people I don't know.

In fairness, when I was 5 years old and a drain off started leaking in the house, my mother called a plumber from the Yellow Pages. When I can actually concentrate on my work, I'd rather have it, even if that means advertising. You never know, I might get some nice simple work like a leaking pipe, a broken toilet, a failed immersion heater rather than the weird and wonderful things I get by recommendation because I have a reputation for having the patience for resolving weird problems!