Powerflushing Microbore ...

[DavidGee]

I seem to have got different advice from local installers with regard to cleansing the central heating system prior to installing a boiler

I have "twin entry" valves on the radiators and have been told that:

* Powerflushing can be done as normal

* Powerflushing is not possible with microbore / twin entry valves, the radiators will have to be removed and flushed outside.

I am not too sure where to go on this one, as an aside can powerflusing actually harm the system i.e. cause leaks by putting pressure on joints / connectors etc?

I am only changing the boiler due to age, the central heating works well and other than having to have a motor replaced some years ago it has never given any issues, given this I am not too sure what to do for the best

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Them valves are terrible mate, get the pipework altered to have a proper flow and return piped to each side of the radiator( if you have them valves, chances are your radiators are 30 years old, maybe fling some new ones in?).
Then you can get a chemical flush done and see how it goes, if you still suffer from poor circulation you can take it from there.

 

[lame plumber]

ditto all above

 

[DavidGee]

Thanks for the advice, how big a job would that be, would it need the flooring taken up and would I need new radiators for it to work properly and would any other part of the heating need to be touched

Thanks again

 

[DavidGee]

Thank you

 

[PhoenixServices]

Personally if your going to the expense of replacing the boilerand re piping, get some properly oversized rads put in so the boiler condenses well.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

You'll only get so many Btu's out microbore.
Changing the pipework and valves to each radiator should take about 1-2 hours.
Changing the radiators should take about 1 hour.
Pipework can be altered above floor 90% of the time.

 

[DavidGee]

Thank you, however I do not think that I could replace the piping as such.

If only the valves need changing with additional piping run the length of the radiator that would be fine, any more than that would be cost prohibative

 

[DavidGee]

Many thanks for the information, just so I understand are you referring to changing all the central heating piping or just the pipework for each radiator? Sorry if this is a basic question but I am assuming that only one pipe the length of the radiator needs to be run (Ie I have two pipes going in one end of the radiator, one needs to be run to the other end)

All the central heating pipework is hidden under the floor and there is no real way that could changed.

Thanks again

 

[Worcester]

Personally if your going to the expense of replacing the boilerand re piping, get some properly oversized rads put in so the boiler condenses well.

Nope, that would be properly sized rads based on a ΔT of 40 instead of 50, in which case your rads will be 34% larger than ΔT50
before that though, That doesn't make them oversized. (ΔT40 you will be able to set the flow and return temperaturs at the correct values to run the boiler in condensing mode...)
If you oversize them the boiler will cycle much more frequently.
Run it through the stelrad stars or mears calculators, as the current ones are probably undersized anyway.
(Do it right, do it first time..)

That is NOT oversizing, that is correct sizing.....

 

[wetdrip]

I hate micro bore.

 

[DavidGee]

Me too!

Micro bore = bad

Micro bore + Twin Entry Valves = Awful!

 

[basildog]

I hate micro bore.

I hate pipes !
And people !

 

[jtsplumbing]

Micro-bore, like any system will work fine if its installed right, done quite a lot and never had any problems, 10mm best size to use, have come across rubbish systems that don't work , both small bore & micro, Never liked the twin entry valves, even less the ones that connected to the centre of the rad

 

[DavidGee]

Yes, the micro bore system has been problem free for many years, it has never leaked and I have not had any air in the sytem

This whole issue has been caused through having to have the pipework "flushed" prior to having a new boiler fitted. I am worried that this cleaning could cause problems with the valves / pipework which has never given any issues.

I just wish there was someway around it.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Power flushing is not a requirement , just do a chemical flush (Fernox F5) and add a magnaclean filter to system

 

[newcastle phill]

The domestic building services compliance guide does indeed make reference to flushing the system thoroughly.

 

[DavidGee]

Thank you for that - it' s really interesting - all the installers I have spoken to have insisted that a "powerflush" or radiator removal was required prior to fitting a new boiler.

in practical terms do you think that an installer would actually fit a boiler using Fernox and installing a magnalclean?

Thanks again for the information.

 

[DavidGee]

It does indeed (I have just found a copy on the net) but does not really specify what form that cleaning should take. All the installers that I have spoken to have insisted that power flushing/ removal of all the radiators is required, however this is not stipulated in the regulations.

Not too sure how Fernox works but if it negated the need to remove radiators then it would be a option worth trying

 

[DavidGee]

Sorry, I should have asked before - does Fernox clean the whole system without having to remove the radiators, ie it is pumped in the system which is subsequently drained in the normal way?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Go onto Fernox Webb site it will give you all the information

 

[jtsplumbing]

The domestic building services compliance guide does indeed make reference to flushing the system thoroughly.

But it doesn't insist on a Power flush, in most case's chemical flush is good enough with good quality filter

 

[hammers4spanner]

The domestic building services compliance guide does indeed make reference to flushing the system thoroughly.

manufacturers guidelines of that appliance

couldn't give a todge for some other reference as that is not in manufacturers spec

 

[newcastle phill]

Im guessing yous dont own a powerflush and justify that a mag clean is sufficient even though lots or carp isnt magnetic.
And just rely on normal flow from boiler even though it might be caked up.

Ill stick with doing a proper job
And properly clean & protect the customers investment

 

[jtsplumbing]

Im guessing yous dont own a powerflush and justify that a mag clean is sufficient even though lots or carp isnt magnetic.

Ill stick with doing a proper job
And properly clean & protect the customers investment

Well you would be guessing wrong, I have had a PF unit for over 10 years, What I am saying is it's NOT a leagle requirement to PF a system, every system can-not be PF, so what would you do in that case ? not do the install because you cant PF it !

 

[DavidGee]

Yes, that is pretty much where I am at the moment, the boiler install seems to be straightforward, problems caused by the poweflush causing blockages / leaks, dealing with damaged valves due to radiator removal are the issues giving me a headache right now!

 

[DavidGee]

Thank you ... I have just read about it.

 

[lame plumber]

Im guessing yous dont own a powerflush and justify that a mag clean is sufficient even though lots or carp isnt magnetic.
And just rely on normal flow from boiler even though it might be caked up.

Ill stick with doing a proper job
And properly clean & protect the customers investment

How is a power flush going to do on a single pipe system, youll be done in 10 mins as the water will be clean but the rads wont be sludge free

 

[DavidGee]

OK, so does this mean that i need to speak to the manufacturers to get their take on what needs to happen with regard to the flushing of the system?

 

[hammers4spanner]

It basically says what they require in the manual .

 

[hammers4spanner]

Im guessing yous dont own a powerflush and justify that a mag clean is sufficient even though lots or carp isnt magnetic.
And just rely on normal flow from boiler even though it might be caked up.

Ill stick with doing a proper job
And properly clean & protect the customers investment

I rent a PF as already stated no requirement to power flush a system , not everybody can afford the extra cost either . What do you do then ?

Sorry love i don't want your £4000 profit for a boiler change as you can't afford a PF on top

Daftness

 

[basildog]

OK, so does this mean that i need to speak to the manufacturers to get their take on what needs to happen with regard to the flushing of the system?

I would ring the manufacturer of your chosen new boiler and ask them ? Simple ?
Get it in writing well an email or something as everyone seems to love a bit of paper these days !

 

[DavidGee]

Thank you ... good advice

 

[newcastle phill]

I rent a PF as already stated no requirement to power flush a system , not everybody can afford the extra cost either . What do you do then ?

Sorry love i don't want your £4000 profit for a boiler change as you can't afford a PF on top

Daftness

Im confused
So you rent one but theres no requirement to flush you say. So it stays in the back of your van ?....nope ??

Of course it doesnt because if you rent one you know you need one as chemicals alone wont always work on clogged systems or systems where the boilers D.O.A.

Extra cost ??
Not necessarily.
I own one and its paid for.
No cost on top to cover rental.

We have different approaches.
And obviously different profit levels

4k profit for a boiler swap.....think ill have a lie in and pass that one by...
Mine start at £4001.50

 

[hammers4spanner]

Im confused
So you rent one but theres no requirement to flush you say. So it stays in the back of your van ?....nope ??

Of course it doesnt because if you rent one you know you need one as chemicals alone wont always work on clogged systems or systems where the boilers D.O.A.

Extra cost ??
Not necessarily.
I own one and its paid for.
No cost on top to cover rental.

We have different approaches.
And obviously different profit levels

4k profit for a boiler swap.....think ill have a lie in and pass that one by...
Mine start at £4001.50

Typo ,

If it stays in my van that would be classed as theft
extra cost ? so you power flush for free?

As already said no requirement to power flush upto the cust if they wish,

you posting on power flushing makes no weight wether it should or shouldn't as its not a legal requirement

 

[newcastle phill]

Says it all really

 

[jtsplumbing]

Hi Phil, understand it's your choice to PF every boiler change, all be it not a requirement, but you must make an additional charge on each job to cover extra time, and any maintenance costs on the PF unit, But you must have come across systems that it is not possible to PF, I like you own my own unit and have done so for over 10 years, But I don't think its necessary to PF every job, but that's my choice based on the condition of the system, & meny years experience in the trade ! I find that in this area (soft Water) using a good quality cleaner with filter works just as well, PF-ing does not guarantee to remove everything in the system, With your commitment and insistence on PF-ing are you by any chance ex BG ? What Hammers is saying, if he deems it necessary to PF something then he will hire a unit,

 

[hammers4spanner]

well said joe sometimes its like educating pork

 

[newcastle phill]

Now now play nicely

I guess if you can only retort with insults it says a lot about you ?

Seen it 100s of times before.
Lose the argument - become insulting.


The glaring thing is we evidently are poles apart in how we approach jobs.
and my business model is nothing like yours. But that's cool and I haven't a problem with that.

 

[GrahamM]

There is no fixed guidelines that say the old systems MUST be powerflushed. Every job is different and the installer needs make call. If some powerflush as a matter of coarse wither system requires or not then that is their business.
The Manufactures only state a cleanser must be used and flushed through to clear systems. But Worcester do state a powerflush MAY be required.

We all agree that they terrible twin entry valves MUST be replaced!

 

[jtsplumbing]

There is no fixed guidelines that say the old systems MUST be powerflushed. Every job is different and the installer needs make call. If some powerflush as a matter of coarse wither system requires or not then that is their business.
The Manufactures only state a cleanser must be used and flushed through to clear systems. But Worcester do state a powerflush MAY be required.

We all agree that they terrible twin entry valves MUST be replaced!

Well trust Worcester to state the obvious , but PF-ing is not the answer to everything, that some people think it is ! Phill does all of his, I do the ones I think needs it, costumers do get he option but at extra cost, Takes an extra day to do a proper flush and is better with 2 people.

 

[DavidGee]

Thanks for the information re: Powerflushing .... and yes, twin entry valves will need to be replaced!

D

 

[newcastle phill]

Phill does all of his

No your mis quoting me or you have difficulty with straight facts.
Read my posts again and

Please point me toward where I state I do all mine ???
Im waiting.

What i was saying is those who flush with a magnetic filter only, in my opinion is half a job and if your going to go to the trouble - do it properly in my opinion.

Then your honor, we have those amongst us stating legal standpoint lol

Someone else stated theres no requirement to flush.
I stated there is reference to flushing in the DBSCG.
Again I made no reference to power flushing - I stated flushing.

READ MY POSTS AGAIN.

Some on here need to go to specsavers and learn to read.


No wonder some plumbers have a bad name for poor quality work.
They cant even absorb basic information without getting themselves in a muddle

 

[jtsplumbing]

No your mis quoting me or you have difficulty with straight facts.
Read my posts again and

Please point me toward where I state I do all mine ???
Im waiting.

What i was saying is those who flush with a magnetic filter only, in my opinion is half a job and if your going to go to the trouble - do it properly in my opinion.

Then your honor, we have those amongst us stating legal standpoint lol

Someone else stated theres no requirement to flush.
I stated there is reference to flushing in the DBSCG.
Again I made no reference to power flushing - I stated flushing.

READ MY POSTS AGAIN.

Some on here need to go to specsavers and learn to read.


No wonder some plumbers have a bad name for poor quality work.
They cant even absorb basic information without getting themselves in a muddle

Sorry to upset you ! but you give the impression that you PF all your boiler changers, and that only using chemicals & a filter is only doing half a job, so do you PF all of your upgrades ? or do you to, some times also only do half a job ?
slighting people on there ability to read and absorb information again gives the impression that you are a little arrogant ,and don't like criticism , we all make mistakes even you, unless you believe that you are infallible

 

[newcastle phill]

Not arrogant.
Annoyed when mis quoted because some are too lazy to read properly

Some may also conclude some self righteous "pork" spectators are both provocative and arrogant with their "I know better" attitude

 

[jtsplumbing]

Not arrogant.
Annoyed when repeatedly mis quoted because some are too lazy to read properly

Some may also conclude some self righteous "pork" spectators are both provocative and arrogant with their "I know better" attitude

But you still have not answered the question,! do you PF all your upgrades or sometimes only do half a job (Your quote) Honest answer

 

[newcastle phill]

I don't answer to you chum.
Think this has run its course
Im sure others are just as bored as I am of this farce

 

[jtsplumbing]

I don't answer to you chum.
Think this has run its course
Im sure others are just as bored as I am of this farce

So your no different than most other people!

 

[newcastle phill]

Lol

 

[hammers4spanner]

contradiction !!!