Is a S flange out of the HWC really necessary ?

[realstokebloke]

If your existing pipe off the top of the cylinder runs horizontally straight from the top of the cylinder then a Warix flange is easiest. The top outlet is connected to a dip tube to avoid air entrapment.

The thread on the top of your cylinder will probably be 1" FI but could be 3/4.


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Yes, it has an elbow out of the top & then runs horizontally across.

So the Warrix needed is either 1" / 22mm (most likely) or 3/4" / 22mm then?

Is the " (inch) measurement across the fitting to check plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn).

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

 

[Best]

Fine with that - i was told (elsewhere on here to avoid gates AND lever valves though?) and to get full bore iso's (the ones with a screw driver turn)

Too late on the "all nice neat copper etc" - i have run the other three in PEX (but it is very nice & neat also.)

Lever valves are not as tamper proof as iso's with screw slot, but they are perfect for pump & other supplies & I doubt full bore iso's are all as good quality as levers.
No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

 

[realstokebloke]

Pity! No such thing as neat plastic pipes IMO, copper with soldered joints, machine bends & the pump hoses straight, is the real way! :grin:

Well, the pump hoses are as straight as the horseguards at the palace at the weekend anyway.

I'll try a pic to show the pipe runs as well though, so you can scoff some more

Now, how do i tell what my fitting (in the top of the HWC) is without draining the whole caboodle & getting the old one out first plse?

 

[realstokebloke]

p.s if salamander require a comp elbow from cylinder then you will need to reroute your vertical outlet anyway, so you could do that and not bother with flange? s'up to you at end of the day. p.s how much was pump? i can get stu turners for only a few quid more from an independent merchant....look into it and maybe take the silly mander back :25:

No can do KJ sorry, Had the Salamander a while now, so won't honour any returns.

If it all goes belly up though - I'll get back to you.

Are they not good 'uns tthemselves though?

Not knowing & being my forst ever pump purchase, i thought they were right up there in the pump food chain.

 

[Best]

A 22mm x 1" male bend will narrow from the threaded end, a 22mm x 3/4" will not. Hope that makes sense. You most likely have the 1" threads. A plumber would know at a glance.
Salamander pumps are a middle quality pump that if fitted well give good service usually, but Stuart & Turner are pure quality ( you just need to fit one & you won't use anything else) & as far as I know, make high quality versions for other companies.

 

[kay-jay]

i agree with bests last post!

if you have the appropriate reducer at hand then you will have no problems completing the job.
btw a full drain down is not necessary for the flange. isolate or bung the cwsc (header tank for cylinder) open hot tap til nothing comes out, wrap a couple of towels around cylinder and open union slowly shouldn't get more than a few drips down the side.

 

[realstokebloke]

A 22mm x 1" male bend will narrow from the threaded end, a 22mm x 3/4" will not. Hope that makes sense. You most likely have the 1" threads. A plumber would know at a glance.

"...know at a glance..."

I just shot the fitting at the top of the cylinder but can't find the download lead to post it on here ! ("durr") for now anyway - a household enquiry will reveal same later hopefully - then some kind soul can twll me (at a glance) the fitting i have & the one i'll need i hope.

In other words Best - (& sorry to be dense) it "sort of" made sense but not totally.

 

[realstokebloke]

i agree with bests last post!

if you have the appropriate reducer at hand then you will have no problems completing the job.
btw a full drain down is not necessary for the flange. isolate or bung the cwsc (header tank for cylinder) open hot tap til nothing comes out, wrap a couple of towels around cylinder and open union slowly shouldn't get more than a few drips down the side.

When i do it, i have to move the header tank anyway to fit ano 25gallon tank (50G for the shower cold feed), so i was going to drain it & give it a good clean anyway.

So are you saying running the hot taps will drain off enough water (plus a few towels) so i don;t need to use the drain cock at the base of the cylinder & empty it.

Cheers.

 

[stevetheplumber]

it rare for me to losemoney on any job but the two that spring to mind both involved salamander pumps and minor deviations from the mi's

 

[kay-jay]

When i do it, i have to move the header tank anyway to fit ano 25gallon tank (50G for the shower cold feed), so i was going to drain it & give it a good clean anyway.

So are you saying running the hot taps will drain off enough water (plus a few towels) so i don;t need to use the drain cock at the base of the cylinder & empty it.

Cheers.

If you are changing the header tank then you need to drain down. Bunging won't help you. However if you turn off cold mains and run hot tap you Will empty the header and not the cylinder allowing you to add an extra 25gall tank or replace with 50gall tank. The Bunging would allow you to remove the hot water coupling from the cylinder to fit a flange without draining. Hope this makes sense bit im drunk right now......

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[realstokebloke]

If you are changing the header tank then you need to drain down. Bunging won't help you. However if you turn off cold mains and run hot tap you Will empty the header and not the cylinder allowing you to add an extra 25gall tank or replace with 50gall tank. The Bunging would allow you to remove the hot water coupling from the cylinder to fit a flange without draining. Hope this makes sense bit im drunk right now......

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Yes it does cheers KJ (Hooray - i am finally being able to understand most of what's been posted ! Must be geting better. )

Here's my plan:

I need to move the header tank first, so will turn off rising main, isolate tank on cw feed valve & drain off the CH by the stopcock on the rad nearest the door & out. Re-position. Give it a good clean out & re-fill.

Then drain the cold existing water (CWSC?) tank (opening all the hot taps to drain). Add ano 25gallon CWSC with x2 22mm link pipes (better than 1x 28mm apparently) and run 22mm pipe out of the far end of the new tank direct to the pump.

I have run cold & hot pipes out of the pump, back up to the loft, down the the mixer valve, back up & across & to the shower (overhead drench).

I just then need to decide on the best way to get the hot water in to the pump (Warix / S etc.)

When i do that I think i get your instructions KJ thanks: i.e. "bung" the header, open the taps & use some towels when fitting the flange.

By the way, can you fit an iso valve on the header tank 'out' to the cylinder (instead of bunging it)?

Mine currently has no isolation on the out - so could fit when move it - or is it bad practise / not the done thing?

 

[kay-jay]

first paragraph - turn off rising main - correct

drain off the ch by the stopcock on the rad nearest door (why? you should have a header for the hw and a smaller on for the heating, should be no need to drain the ch from a rad unless you need to move the small ch header to accommodate the new hw header....ok so far? if the ch header (f+e tank its called) does need moving then your plan of attack should be

1)turn off rising main
2)connect hose to rad drain point, drain a small amount then shut off drain and check tank...you are only draining enough to empty the tank plus a bit more to empty a bit of pipe so you can solder new connections to re-route to new location. there is absolutely no need to drain down all your heating. you would only run the risk of air locks on refill.

3)ensure ch is turned off!!!! then move tank to new location and repipe. move it as little as possible to negate the possibility of affecting heating operation and creating problems like dragging air in or pumping over!! new location should be at the same height if possible.also if possible look at boiler manual for guidance on which locations it can be sited. moving the feed and vent will alter their relationship to pump position which could cause problems.

3) proceed to drain the hw header through taps just until header is empty. you wont need to bung anything that would just allow you to uncouple the hw cylinder union to fit a warix flange without draining. but as you are draining to move the header there is no bungs required. just drain header and move it as you did the f+e tank. while it is drained fit your warix or tee into hw pipe or whatever it is you have decided to provide the hw connection. when your'e happy with your pipes and connections open the rising main again and check for leaks in loft and around pump.

 

[realstokebloke]

Cheers KJ.

Good & bad.

Good(ish): yes, i have moved the "F&E" (thanks) over & across (just a bit to allow another header tank to link alongside to the existing one) I made sure it is at exactly the same height etc. But crucially, it has not moved far at all - and is closer to being 'over' the cylinder in the loft than it was before as i made a new platform alongised the existing one & so far so good.

I have moved the overflow and expansion pipes into it so far - now i just need to re-route the cold feed into the ball valve to fill.

Not so good tho' (reading the above) is that i thought i had to drain the CH completely, so just opened the stop-cock & drained it down while i did all the above.

"Durr".

So i have it empty as we speak and will refill when i get the cold feed in again later. Of course you are right to say you only need to drain down low enough to empty the F&E so i don't take a gold star for that one.

Obviously i haven't had the central heating on tho' - so not a disaster (i hope).

I take it i now run the risk of air locks on a refill you say? So is there anything specifically to do to avoid if possible? It's not terminal surely - otherwise how does anyone ever fill the system to start?

I have had the HW on though & seems fine.

I was going to just put enough back in the F&E tank tank to test the new joints i've soldered in - although i realise now, i'll be filling from the bottom up so it will take longer of course.

"Durr" (ii)

Two Q's though:

1. while i had the F&E drained down, i took the opportunity to give the tank a damn good clean (it was pretty mucky in there) but i wasn't too shocked at the colour of the water at the end of the drain to be fair - but that said, what the thoughts on any additives to go back in there?

Are they (as one plumber told me recently) a "complete waste of time & money" or do they actually work? & if so, which ones? Should i put a cleaner in now while it's empty & an inhibitor when it's back full up?

They aren't cheap if they are a waste of time, i agree.

2. when i moved the waste overflow from the F&E to re-site it, i had to butcher the waste tank connector as the dip tube was all solvent welded in. hence i need to get a new one. Do i get a straight replacement (22mm screw fit though to the pipe) or is is worth getting a bylaw 30 compatible one with the air vent & mesh etc?

thanks.

 

[kay-jay]

no need for byelaw 30 on f and e tank.

if all rads get hot and no issues with cold spots put an inhibitor chemical in after you have checked for leaks. it is important to do this every 12 months on an open vent system like yours. the plumber you spoke to is a plonker!