Flue for old atmospheric boiler

[Steve jones]

HI,

I had a new gas meter fitted a year ago and the installer said he wasn't happy with the flue. I have lost the report but would like to correct any faults.
The boiler is an old Thorn floor mounted atmospheric boiler which is located in the corner of a single story flat roofed garage which is attached to 2 floor house. Above the boiler you can see the bottom of the brick chimney which runs up the side of the house to roof level.
A flexible stainless flue liner runs from the top to the bottom of the chimney and connects directly to the boiler. So from the boiler to the ceiling in the garage where it enters the chimney there is an exposed unprotected section of flue liner.
Is this allowable in the gas regs? Should there be a solid section of flue from boiler to the ceiling and if so should it be double skinned.
Thanks very much for any advice
Steve

 

[Pickwickpick]

From my assessment I was told ncs was done away with too, without double checking I'm sure we now have 2 categories of AR, one category was dealt with by just filling out a form to notify the customer which basically replaced ncs and the other where we would have to turn the appliance off, fill out a form and attach a label.

We've been taught that they have got rid of NCS and things that would have fallen under that category are to be called none compliant. We should inform the customer of it but there are no stickers to leave/forms to fill out.

 

[Aire]

We've been taught that they have got rid of NCS and things that would have fallen under that category are to be called none compliant. We should inform the customer of it but there are no stickers to leave/forms to fill out.

Yeah your right, just checked and, you can still notify in writing if you wish but not as part of a warning notice, so verbally is fine.

 

[DXCross]

Hopefully not high jacking the thread too much but seems a bit backwards in my opinion. Gas safe really didn’t relay the information too well?
Either way it’s a learning curve and happy to be corrected. Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ncs still exists just note it down but do nothing about it no labels nothing

 

[Aire]

Hopefully not high jacking the thread too much but seems a bit backwards in my opinion. Gas safe really didn’t relay the information too well?
Either way it’s a learning curve and happy to be corrected. Thanks

Don't think it's an issue with gas safe relaying the info, it's probably people (like me) forgetting.

I haven't had to use the warning system since qualifying so I guess it's easily done.

 

[Pickwickpick]

Don't think it's an issue with gas safe relaying the info, it's probably people (like me) forgetting.

I haven't had to use the warning system since qualifying so I guess it's easily done.

What is the process for Gas Safe relaying such information? Our tutors told us they put out technical bulletins on their website, do they also post or email them out, or do they have an equivalent of a trade magazine?

 

[Riley]

They have a mag but it’s all targeted wrong. The magazine is more about what not to do rather than improving standards

 

[Pickwickpick]

Thought that might be the case, its bonkers as that would be a really easy win for them, especially at a time when they're under the spotlight (iirc only last November Gas Safe were on Watchdog).

 

[Riley]

It’s wrong it’s another contract to the highest bidder who then have no obligation to actually clean up the industry. That’s the problem with all these government tendered contracts there’s never any incentive be it financial or punitive to complete on time or actually achieve things

 

[Pickwickpick]

It’s wrong it’s another contract to the highest bidder who then have no obligation to actually clean up the industry. That’s the problem with all these government tendered contracts there’s never any incentive be it financial or punitive to complete on time or actually achieve things

Yep that's true, but even when they have done contracts with so incentives/disincentives (e.g. probation services) its still not driven up standards to an acceptable level. Part of the problem is there's literally only a handful of companies that are large enough to take on these big contracts, so you end up with a quasi monopoly on the go. Capita didn't get the nickname Crapita for no reason, yet they keep being awarded government contracts... I also personally think that when it comes to regulatory bodies there should be no profit motive involved.

 

[Riley]

I think electric standards had the right idea where there are various bodies then they have to win your custom

 

[Pickwickpick]

That would definitely help, at least it would make it harder for them to treat tradesmen, who have no choice but to register, as cashcows. Not convinced it would help from an enforcement & raising standards perspective however.

 

[Riley]

Small steps I think mate it’ll start with everyone going with the cheapest option then as the punters start to see what’s on offer it will come down to the company that offer the best service

 

[Pickwickpick]

My concern with that set up is that if there are multiple bodies, each will have slightly different takes on enforcement, rules&regs, CPD... it will muddy the water further imo.

I think considering the public safety aspect, the government should be setting aside a budget that is adequate to ensure that a) there is significantly more enforcement/inspection b) there is good quality support for gas engineers, including training/education & decent communication (it wouldn't be that hard or expensive for them to email/post tech bulletins when they come out to everyone on the register) rather than just a reassessment every 5yrs. It would take some political will however, which as always is sadly going to take a major catastrophe to kick them into doing something.

 

[Riley]

Problem is mate that at the moment there is zero enforcement. Multiple organisations all following the same remit could at least prove they have teeth or not

 

[Pickwickpick]

Yep, totally agree about current state of affairs, just think the fastest, fairest & most effective way to changing it would be a decent budget provided by the government that is a) solely for enforcement b) has to be used c) effectiveness assessed (would be good to have input from gas safe members on this) with loss of contract if not adequate.

But it would take a lot of political will, with that missing, then yes your option is probably the next best.

Any idea how sparks feel about their multi body set up?

 

[Aire]

Interesting, I would class a boiler with the wrong flue used as immediately dangerous.

What's with the dislike @chris watkins

 

[chris watkins]

Sorry bit harsh but if it is working correctly Craig, as we have to assume it has been for all this time it can't be ID.
It would have to be spilling for that.

And for those who think it should be condemned because of how hot the liner is likely to get clearly have not touched a nice bit of single wall stainless or enamelled especially on a solid fuel appliance !!

 

[firemant]

What's with the dislike @chris watkins

Probably because you clearly have not read the procedure.
Personally, if you were to overstep your remit, and wrongly condemn my boiler, depriving my family of heat and hot water, I would be looking at suing you.

EDIT: Composed and posted this as Chris was doing so. Too many guys have no real understanding of the basics.

 

[Jerry]

Different point of view:

What's the efficiency on the boiler? 50%

I guess your gas bill is about £800/year? That's £400 up the chimney a year.

A new system boiler in the same spot with a powerflush, controls etc and a 12 year guarantee would cost ???

Do the math. How long until it pays for itself?

 

[firemant]

Different point of view:

What's the efficiency on the boiler? 50%

I guess your gas bill is about £800/year? That's £400 up the chimney a year.

A new system boiler in the same spot with a powerflush, controls etc and a 12 year guarantee would cost ???

Do the math. How long until it pays for itself?

It is not that different. My first post made a similar comment.

 

[Jerry]

It is not that different. My first post made a similar comment.

Sorry missed it!

 

[Jerry]

Yep, totally agree about current state of affairs, just think the fastest, fairest & most effective way to changing it would be a decent budget provided by the government that is a) solely for enforcement b) has to be used c) effectiveness assessed (would be good to have input from gas safe members on this) with loss of contract if not adequate.

But it would take a lot of political will, with that missing, then yes your option is probably the next best.

Any idea how sparks feel about their multi body set up?

I am GS and a NAPIT registered sparky.

My electrical works are inspected annual onsite and I have to show certs, calibrations etc and answer questions to an assessor. This is good in my opinion.

There is a lot of snobbery amongst the different elec bodies. NICEIC think they are the best and many times they win jobs purely by name.

The electrical forums can be brutal.

Should GS be split into more bodies? Not sure. People still think we are CORGI....
..

 

[Pickwickpick]

I am GS and a NAPIT registered sparky.

My electrical works are inspected annual onsite and I have to show certs, calibrations etc and answer questions to an assessor. This is good in my opinion.

There is a lot of snobbery amongst the different elec bodies. NICEIC think they are the best and many times they win jobs purely by name.

The electrical forums can be brutal.

Should GS be split into more bodies? Not sure. People still think we are CORGI..
..

That sounds like a much better way of doing things, with a bit of political will and some extra funding should be possible to make GS do the same.

Was there a similar setup before it was multi body (or has it always been multi body, don't know much about the world of Sparkys)? Is there the same inspection regime irrespective of which trade body you are with? Also what are your fees like compared to Gas Safe?

Good point re corgi lol

 

[Jerry]

That sounds like a much better way of doing things, with a bit of political will and some extra funding should be possible to make GS do the same.

Was there a similar setup before it was multi body (or has it always been multi body, don't know much about the world of Sparkys)? Is there the same inspection regime irrespective of which trade body you are with? Also what are your fees like compared to Gas Safe?

Good point re corgi lol

I think the inspection regime is fairly similar across the sparks schemes. I honestly don't know the difference in prices because I haven't looked into it. Sparkles generally pay for way for certs than we do (thanks to the boiler manufacturers)

I am not sure if GS should be split. However, we are GS members should be able to hold GS toes to the fire and conversely the other gas bodies. In theory. I think there is some power in the numbers. Thino of the American unions....

I regards to GS and sparky fees....honestly I don't k ow off the top of my head. You pay your fees if you want to play this game....

 

[Aire]

Sorry bit harsh but if it is working correctly Craig, as we have to assume it has been for all this time it can't be ID.
It would have to be spilling for that.

And for those who think it should be condemned because of how hot the liner is likely to get clearly have not touched a nice bit of single wall stainless or enamelled especially on a solid fuel appliance !!

Yeah I've looked into this for my own knowledge and the example of unsafe situations in tb001 classes incorrect use of flue liner (e.g exposed) is only ncs, given how that is not official any more, apart from telling the customer it's wrong, nothing else should be done, is that right?

 

[Aire]

Probably because you clearly have not read the procedure.
Personally, if you were to overstep your remit, and wrongly condemn my boiler, depriving my family of heat and hot water, I would be looking at suing you.

EDIT: Composed and posted this as Chris was doing so. Too many guys have no real understanding of the basics.

Someone sounds grumpy

 

[Riley]

NCS = non compliant the classification level still exists you just verbally advise

 

[chris watkins]

Just like the GSR engineer reported to OP Steve, I would expect that the report he can no longer find went something like - "That flue on your boiler is not correct sir, a flue liner has been used in place of the correct twin wall flue pipe which should have been used between the boiler & the chimney above". "Now I have had a quick look & I can see no signs of spillage from the boiler / flue so it looks like it is functioning however that is not to say it should not be corrected, I know I am just here to install your gas meter but you will understand that I have a duty of care under the Gas Safety Regulation to point out issue I come across"

If you would like know why the liner is an issue it is because it is light weight & easily damaged, as a product it was only intended to be used within a sealed chimney space where the trapped air would act as insulation to keep the flue gas temperatures high enough for the system to work carrying the products of combustion away safely. As it stands the long length of liner will allow the hot gases to cool quickly & the flue may not function as quickly or effectively as it should / could. For this reason I am recommending that you get it corrected as soon as you can.
I will be including this in my report, job sheet or invoice in that way you have a record & I have discharge my duty of care.

 

[Jerry]

Its so old no one can agree on how to flue it, let alone categorise it!