Those of you with apprentices

[mfgs]

I have had an apprentice for 3 months now. He is doing ok, and just ok. I have put a lot of time in to teaching him etc but at the moment the only real thing he is good for is tidying up and getting the tools. Last night I get a text message at 9.30 which reads "Alright mate have just been thinking, iv been with you a while now and I think I have progressed a lot in that time so id like to suggest a raise in wages please mate. Lemme know what you think"

He is on £3.30 an hour, so above the minimum wage for a first year apprentice, but he certainly doesn't earn me any more than I pay him in a week. To be honest the cheek of asking has really wound me up. He has been far from the model employee to date and I have given him possibly more chances than I should have done. Examples of this are taking breaks for cigarettes when it has been made clear that the only time for smoking is lunch time, after doing any small amount of physical work I have caught him just sitting around having a break or walking off to the shop, not being ready when I pick him up from his house in the mornings. I am now thinking about getting rid of him if this is a sign of things to come. I never once asked for a pay rise while I was an apprentice, I was happy for the opportunity to be taught the trade I wanted to do.

Anyone had a similar experience and how did you deal with it?

 

[rpm]

Bottom line is you have a job jay so congrats on that.

 

[R.Oak]

Yeah I thought that, but he rang a course provider while I was with him about booking me on the course. I'll just see what happens. I'm focussing on now and learning and doing my best at what jobs he gives me first. I'll evaluate the pay etc later on down the line.

thats good then, congrats on the job, and on the baby too. Hope everything works out well.

 

[Masood]

We are so negative on here sometimes it's painful. Yes, Jay is being held over a barrel. Yes he's being shafted. Yes, it's illegal to pay apprentice rate unless as part of a formal apprenticeship agreement. BUT - someone has given the man a chance, and is paying him SOMETHING at least. Better than those poor sods offering to work for free, no? Would we be happier if Jay had NO job? Sure we'd have the moral high ground that we'd stopped him being exploited but you can't eat morals.

Best of luck Jay. For what it's worth I'd have done the same as you (did something similar in fact). Learn, absorb, progress and demonstrate to your boss that you're a valuable asset. The financial rewards will come. Do suggest, as soon as you are earning him money on your solo days, that he pay you more on those days.

 

[Rickster123]

We are so negative on here sometimes it's painful. Yes, Jay is being held over a barrel. Yes he's being shafted. Yes, it's illegal to pay apprentic rate unless as part of a formal apprentice agreement. BUT - someone has given the man a chance, and is paying hime SOMETHING at least. Better than those poor sods offering to work for free, no?

Bets of luck Jay. For what it's worth I'd have done the same as you (did something similar in fact). Learn, absorb, progress and demonstrate to your boss that you're a valuable asset. The financial rewards will come.

Amen to that!

 

[jaydebruyne]

We are so negative on here sometimes it's painful. Yes, Jay is being held over a barrel. Yes he's being shafted. Yes, it's illegal to pay apprentice rate unless as part of a formal apprenticeship agreement. BUT - someone has given the man a chance, and is paying him SOMETHING at least. Better than those poor sods offering to work for free, no? Would we be happier if Jay had NO job? Sure we'd have the moral high ground that we'd stopped him being exploited but you can't eat morals.

Best of luck Jay. For what it's worth I'd have done the same as you (did something similar in fact). Learn, absorb, progress and demonstrate to your boss that you're a valuable asset. The financial rewards will come. Do suggest, as soon as you are earning him money on your solo days, that he pay you more on those days.

Indeed, sir! I know I'm not getting the best deal in the world in terms of pay, but the positives outweigh the negatives by far in terms of experience and learning so I'm a happy chap...

 

[jaydebruyne]

Thanks everyone for many things: honesty, encouragement and welcoming me to this lovely forum!! There are times when you guys help more than you realise - and that's all the mushy stuff I can muster for one evening haha

 

[IDCHAPPY]

We have 2... i thought it was a great idea at one time :lol:

 

[Ray Stafford]

We are so negative on here sometimes it's painful. Yes, Jay is being held over a barrel. Yes he's being shafted. Yes, it's illegal to pay apprentice rate unless as part of a formal apprenticeship agreement. BUT - someone has given the man a chance, and is paying him SOMETHING at least. Better than those poor sods offering to work for free, no? Would we be happier if Jay had NO job? Sure we'd have the moral high ground that we'd stopped him being exploited but you can't eat morals.

Best of luck Jay. For what it's worth I'd have done the same as you (did something similar in fact). Learn, absorb, progress and demonstrate to your boss that you're a valuable asset. The financial rewards will come. Do suggest, as soon as you are earning him money on your solo days, that he pay you more on those days.

I see where you are coming from Mas, but I don't see why I can't approve of Jay's get-up-and-go spirit, whilst simultaneously disapproving of an employer who will send him out solo on £2.65 per hour.

Yes, he may be "giving him a chance". The same would apply if I offered a warehouse job at the same rate - or crop picking, or working in a care home.

I didn't agree with the introduction of the minimum wage for reasons I won't bore everyone with, but once you have it, you should properly enforce it. Otherwise honest, law-abiding firms are put at a competitive disadvantage against dishonest firms who are allowed to break the law. And that can't be right.

 

[brum]

I was today working with a 17 year old 1st year apprentice (4 weeks in) he is on £3.30 per hour I thought that was a good rate approx. £130 per week..brum

 

[Masood]

I see where you are coming from Mas, but I don't see why I can't approve of Jay's get-up-and-go spirit, whilst simultaneously disapproving of an employer who will send him out solo on £2.65 per hour.

Yes, he may be "giving him a chance". The same would apply if I offered a warehouse job at the same rate - or crop picking, or working in a care home.

I didn't agree with the introduction of the minimum wage for reasons I won't bore everyone with, but once you have it, you should properly enforce it. Otherwise honest, law-abiding firms are put at a competitive disadvantage against dishonest firms who are allowed to break the law. And that can't be right.

I'm not disagreeing with you Ray - in my first post on the matter I suggested that Jay should have negotiated a dual pay rate. I agree totally that he is being taken advantage of. But being a pragmatist, I feel that 40 hours at £2.80 whilst gaining experience and confidence is much better than sitting on the dole insisting on his fair rate of pay.

 

[stevetheplumber]

im with ray on this the guy can obviously do some of the work or they wouldnt suggest sending hgim out alone should definitely be getting min wage
like ray i still dont belive there should be a minimum wage but when you hear of bosses who exploit you can see the need for it
this is probably the same boss who send out untrained guys to work on 35mm mains and then moans when it goes wrong

 

[Ray Stafford]

I'm not disagreeing with you Ray - in my first post on the matter I suggested that Jay should have negotiated a dual pay rate. I agree totally that he is being taken advantage of. But being a pragmatist, I feel that 40 hours at £2.80 whilst gaining experience and confidence is much better than sitting on the dole insisting on his fair rate of pay.

I think that its one of those things which one can agree with at the personal level, whilst deploring at the community level.

When you lose a job on price because Jay's new boss has gone in at a cut throat price based on his cheap labour... well, you know what I am saying.

I don't think we are disagreeing, just taking two sides of the same coin.

 

[Dotty]

At the end of the day each man's contract is his own business. We all deplore Jay's bosses blatent disregard ot the employment law but at the moment Jay is happy.

The bottom line can be rengiatd

 

[Ray Stafford]

At the end of the day each man's contract is his own business.

Should be, but isn't. Our glorious government has seen fit to decree that some contracts may not be made - including those for labour below a certain rate per hour. (there are loads of other prohibitions on contracts otherwise freely entered into - try enforcing a gambling debt in the courts, or indeed a contract involving drugs, prostitution, indenture or a whole range of other things).

 

[Masood]

I think that its one of those things which one can agree with at the personal level, whilst deploring at the community level.

When you lose a job on price because Jay's new boss has gone in at a cut throat price based on his cheap labour... well, you know what I am saying.

I don't think we are disagreeing, just taking two sides of the same coin.

Agree totally. In principle I deplore what Jay's boss is doing. In this specific instance I'm very happy for Jay. I somehow get the feeling that Jay's boss won't be charging any less for his services despite paying him a pittance.

 

[cr0ft]

One would assume that to avoid this coming to the attention of HMRC that he will be paid in cash as well? If his boss is paying him through bank transfer and declaring his wage to HMRC properly then he is going to end up in the poo over this.

I cannot believe the boss has the total cheek to pay less than £3 per hour and get him to use his own van to be honest (even if diesel is included). It is completely taking advantage imo.

I absolutely hate people who don't follow the law and run their businesses illegally, undercutting all those of us who are honest decent people. I would happily shop someone if I heard they were doing this to be honest.

I actually feel very sorry for Jay to be honest as he is being taken advantage of massively and clearly can't get a better offer. Jay, I hope you stab the ******* in the back and go off and work on your own as soon as you feel ready to.

My apprentices are paid very well and looked after on the basis that happy staff are productive staff and are much less likely to be poached by competitors (they do still get the odd bollocking when they muck up but that's life). Employing people is a 2 way business and if they feel respected they tend to be loyal to you (well most people do). Shaft them like this and they will repay the favour over time.

 

[jaydebruyne]

One would assume that to avoid this coming to the attention of HMRC that he will be paid in cash as well? If his boss is paying him through bank transfer and declaring his wage to HMRC properly then he is going to end up in the poo over this.

I cannot believe the boss has the total cheek to pay less than £3 per hour and get him to use his own van to be honest (even if diesel is included). It is completely taking advantage imo.

I absolutely hate people who don't follow the law and run their businesses illegally, undercutting all those of us who are honest decent people. I would happily shop someone if I heard they were doing this to be honest.

I actually feel very sorry for Jay to be honest as he is being taken advantage of massively and clearly can't get a better offer. Jay, I hope you stab the ******* in the back and go off and work on your own as soon as you feel ready to.

My apprentices are paid very well and looked after on the basis that happy staff are productive staff and are much less likely to be poached by competitors (they do still get the odd bollocking when they muck up but that's life). Employing people is a 2 way business and if they feel respected they tend to be loyal to you (well most people do). Shaft them like this and they will repay the favour over time.

To be honest, at this moment in time I'm just grateful for the experience. i did 5 weeks unpaid so at least now i'm getting some pennies in the pocket and I get to do some jobs on my own to help build my confidence a little - as far as I'm aware it's paid legitimately as I was asked for my NI number and bank details. But I totally see your point, and that of everybody else. But what can I do? It's hard to learn, gain experience and earn money when you're new to the trade.

 

[TFGplumbing]

Jay careful 'the gas' isnt the proverbial carrot on the stick, that you work you ******** off for and never taste; I felt like that was the case in my previous job, the firm came through for me in the end though and sadly went bust just weeks after.
In all fairness I found really tough to get into this industry, and I would have also jumped straight in the deep end for an opportunity similar to yours. Infact I probably would have worked for free.
Good luck

 

[jaydebruyne]

Jay careful 'the gas' isnt the proverbial carrot on the stick, that you work you ******** off for and never taste; I felt like that was the case in my previous job, the firm came through for me in the end though and sadly went bust just weeks after.
In all fairness I found really tough to get into this industry, and I would have also jumped straight in the deep end for an opportunity similar to yours. Infact I probably would have worked for free.
Good luck

I thought the same thing when the 'call' was made - but I know he's put others through to get their gas so I'm looking on the positive and telling myself I'm no different. I'm not allowing myself to hold on to the hope though - I'll believe it when I see it. And if it doesn't happen I still get to gain the experience I'm looking for so it's a win for me and for him. Plus, I'm on the bottom rung of the plumbing ladder so my main concern right now is getting my hands dirty with that - I'll worry about the gas later on

 

[TFGplumbing]

sounds like a great opportunity for experience despite everything else