Those of you with apprentices

[mfgs]

I have had an apprentice for 3 months now. He is doing ok, and just ok. I have put a lot of time in to teaching him etc but at the moment the only real thing he is good for is tidying up and getting the tools. Last night I get a text message at 9.30 which reads "Alright mate have just been thinking, iv been with you a while now and I think I have progressed a lot in that time so id like to suggest a raise in wages please mate. Lemme know what you think"

He is on £3.30 an hour, so above the minimum wage for a first year apprentice, but he certainly doesn't earn me any more than I pay him in a week. To be honest the cheek of asking has really wound me up. He has been far from the model employee to date and I have given him possibly more chances than I should have done. Examples of this are taking breaks for cigarettes when it has been made clear that the only time for smoking is lunch time, after doing any small amount of physical work I have caught him just sitting around having a break or walking off to the shop, not being ready when I pick him up from his house in the mornings. I am now thinking about getting rid of him if this is a sign of things to come. I never once asked for a pay rise while I was an apprentice, I was happy for the opportunity to be taught the trade I wanted to do.

Anyone had a similar experience and how did you deal with it?

 

[lame plumber]

my last one i had for a while was late up, on the phone and smoking, final straw was when he was away on his phone smoking despite his final warning and I had finished the job, so I went home (3/4 hour drive). His mommy was furious with me as she had to go collect the 18 yr old ****, but I wasnt to worried as he no longer had a job. I never bothered with them again.

 

[turnpin]

I've just finished my level 2 and just started level 3, I'm on £100 per week for around 45-50 hours per week. I've not once complained about my wages once ,I've thought of asking for a pay rise but I've not got the guts. when we are on boiler swaps my job is to drain down, take the old boiler off why my boss is at the merchants getting the new one, then i hang the new one and pipe it up and do the electrics why he's doing the flue and condensate. from the day i stated i put away £15 per week to buy tools. I've just bought a van out of my own money. i use that to do small jobs for him. one thing i do is take home the old boilers and weigh them in we used only give them scrap men anyway i get about £18 per boiler if i strip them down.
By the way I'm 18 and if I'm late i get a warning and if I'm late twice i would probably see the door.

You will go far young fella you seem to have the right idea well done...regards Turnpin :smile5:

 

[Millsy 82]

my last one i had for a while was late up, on the phone and smoking, final straw was when he was away on his phone smoking despite his final warning and I had finished the job, so I went home (3/4 hour drive). His mommy was furious with me as she had to go collect the 18 yr old ****, but I wasnt to worried as he no longer had a job. I never bothered with them again.

Oh the phone! My pet hate! I used to tell them to leave it in the van as it looks terrible. I had 1 lad work with me for a day in an empty house so never told him to leave it in the van and he was on Facebook every 5 minutes! I asked never to have him again otherwise I would of broke him.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Sack him

 

[Paulplumb]

Sack him

Lol the voice of compassion.

For the first year I was on £30 a week then I got a rise to £35 a week the second year. I was told that in the olden days the apprentices family paid the plumber! I have no idea if that was true or not? If you are paying him £3.30p an hour for 40 hours a week you could give him a very generous pay rise twice the rate of inflation of 3% and it would cost you less than a fiver a week extra! Then beast the little scrote :lol:

 

[mfgs]

Thanks lads, lots of useful input into this. To be completely honest, I think my mind will be made up by how he reacts to me picking him up on sending me a text message rather than asking face to face, If he gets all defensive he will be out the door on the spot. Most jobs have a 3-6 month probation period to see if you are cut out for the work and keep the job, not one person I have asked today would have dared ask fro a pay rise after 3 months, and I have talked this over with lots of people. I am really taken aback by the cheek of him asking in this way.

 

[chris watkins]

Lol the voice of compassion.

For the first year I was on £30 a week then I got a rise to £35 a week the second year. I was told that in the olden days the apprentices family paid the plumber! I have no idea if that was true or not? If you are paying him £3.30p an hour for 40 hours a week you could give him a very generous pay rise twice the rate of inflation of 3% and it would cost you less than a fiver a week extra! Then beast the little scrote :lol:

Here you go then, cos when I was a lad…….. of just turned 16 my weeks money as an apprentice plumber at Matthew Hall was £19.50 & "I had to pay mill owner for permission to come to work" oops sorry slipped into Monty python again.

Paul is correct in the ye olden days (only just before I started) you had to pay the master to take you on as an apprentice, your time lasted for seven years before you went in front of the guild of master plumbers & they decided if you were good enough to practise & allowed you in.

How times have changed !!!

One of the plus sides of paying was that the master was then responsible for boarding & feeding you for the seven years, any of you guys fancy looking after a teenage for seven years ? its bad enough when their your own.

 

[Masood]

I've just finished my level 2 and just started level 3, I'm on £100 per week for around 45-50 hours per week. I've not once complained about my wages once ,I've thought of asking for a pay rise but I've not got the guts. when we are on boiler swaps my job is to drain down, take the old boiler off why my boss is at the merchants getting the new one, then i hang the new one and pipe it up and do the electrics why he's doing the flue and condensate. from the day i stated i put away £15 per week to buy tools. I've just bought a van out of my own money. i use that to do small jobs for him. one thing i do is take home the old boilers and weigh them in we used only give them scrap men anyway i get about £18 per boiler if i strip them down.
By the way I'm 18 and if I'm late i get a warning and if I'm late twice i would probably see the door.

You're learning some of the most valuable skills there are - self-discipline, independence, being able to work autonomously, taking responsibility. As Turnpin says, you seem to be taking all the best lessons from that and you seem like you'll do really well. Although if you're doing all that, and are L2 qualified then I think you should politely ask for some feedback on your value to your boss and discuss a bit of a raise..

 

[cr0ft]

Look on the bright side, at least you haven't had an apprentice ask you for a pay rise after 1 week!!!

Every apprentice who joins my business will be on minimum apprentice rate plus 20p per hour for the whole of their first year.

After the first year they have to go on minimum wage (unless they are under 19 in which case they get a bit longer to prove their worth). The government stipulate this and it puts a bit of pressure on apprentices to learn very quickly in the first year. If they can't do small jobs on their own at this point, they aren't worth paying minimum wage as far as my business is concerned. I would then let them go at this point.

Assuming they can be left to do small jobs after the first year, their pay is determined based on what they can earn the business in a day. I allow a 30% profit margin for the business in this, take off employer on-costs and then get what their wage should be from that. This is reviewed annually.

 

[chris watkins]

Look on the bright side, at least you haven't had an apprentice ask you for a pay rise after 1 week!!!

Every apprentice who joins my business will be on minimum apprentice rate plus 20p per hour for the whole of their first year.

After the first year they have to go on minimum wage (unless they are under 19 in which case they get a bit longer to prove their worth). The government stipulate this and it puts a bit of pressure on apprentices to learn very quickly in the first year. If they can't do small jobs on their own at this point, they aren't worth paying minimum wage as far as my business is concerned. I would then let them go at this point.

Assuming they can be left to do small jobs after the first year, their pay is determined based on what they can earn the business in a day. I allow a 30% profit margin for the business in this, take off employer on-costs and then get what their wage should be from that. This is reviewed annually.

So what you are saying cr0ft is that their apprenticeship last for just one year then?

If you want cheap labour just take on a lad don't call it an apprenticeship.

Seen a few lads dumped on a site in there second year to install boilers & pipe work, thats not teaching them a trade, it is exploitation.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I think no apprentice should be left on their own on a job, when passed level 2 and they are an improver then maybe, for one thing its not what the custards are paying for

 

[fogarty]

Just a few years ago a new starter couldn't get a plumbing job without donating a kidney ,now it's like their doing you a favour. Tell him he can have a *** when you do especially if you don't smoke. If he's not up when you call in the morning ,drive on and don't pay him. With regard to phone I tell my wife not to ring unless someone's died.

 

[mfgs]

Just an update. I went to pick him up this morning ready to have a chat with him about how he is really progressing and not how he thinks he is. Sat outside his house for 8 mins after texting him telling him I was outside ( I also told him yesterday what time I would be picking him up), so I drove off to the job. I got a text 5 minutes later asking where I was haha. My reply was I am at work where you should be, I waited for you and you never showed. I will give him a chance tomorrow to explain himself, but the writing could be on the wall for him. I could not make it any easier for him to get to work picking him up at his front door every day, if you cant be ready for the time I say then you aren't worth me spending any time on.

 

[Dotty]

Tell him you'll lift him at ridiculous o'clock........

 

[Masood]

Just an update. I went to pick him up this morning ready to have a chat with him about how he is really progressing and not how he thinks he is. Sat outside his house for 8 mins after texting him telling him I was outside ( I also told him yesterday what time I would be picking him up), so I drove off to the job. I got a text 5 minutes later asking where I was haha. My reply was I am at work where you should be, I waited for you and you never showed. I will give him a chance tomorrow to explain himself, but the writing could be on the wall for him. I could not make it any easier for him to get to work picking him up at his front door every day, if you cant be ready for the time I say then you aren't worth me spending any time on.

Unbelievable. My local college has had to turn down so many candidates because they couldn't get an apprenticeship, and those who have one don't value it! Sad...

 

[chris watkins]

I blame the parents don't you.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I blame the parents don't you.

*nods head knowingly*

 

[Ermintrude]

Foot in his arris and then if improvement doesn't last p45. End of

 

[Destroyer2813]

I blame the parents don't you.

To a degree but you teach em all the manners and good intentions under the sun but when they go to school and pick up other kids bad habits some of em forget everything you've taught them and you have to start all.over again it seems sometimes

 

[Dotty]

To a degree but you teach em all the manners and good intentions under the sun but when they go to school and pick up other kids bad habits some of em forget everything you've taught them and you have to start all.over again it seems sometimes

that's no real excuse. I know for a fact we all picked up bad habits at one stage or another as kids, and they were rapidly knocked out of us.

The fault lies with the namby pamby hand wringing apologist society we're in now and the lazy fat arsed baby machines waiting for their five minutes on Jeremy Kyle. The lazy feckless fat spotty pizza faced scuzz ball who believes society should raise their kids!

What is needed is a return to the values of yesteryear when the village bobby would cuff your ear then your mum and dad cuff your other ear when you told them what had happened.

 

[cr0ft]

So what you are saying cr0ft is that their apprenticeship last for just one year then?

I don't think I've said that anywhere at all, I think you've said I've said that

I don't think paying a very capable apprentice £7.50 per hour in year 2 is exploitation to be honest, neither do I feel sending the same capable apprentice out to do small jobs within his capabilities on his own is. I feel that's building his confidence and (yes, shocking I know) helping the business to grow too which is surely what taking on staff is about.

Would I leave him doing a central heating install? No, of course not, because he's not ready for it. At the moment he helps me out for 2 days a week doing the small jobs knowing I am always on the end of the phone if he is unsure about anything. 2 days a week he works with me on larger projects where I continue to spend time teaching him, answering questions etc. 1 day a week at college as per every other apprentice. Coming up to his mid 20s he should of course have more responsibility in keeping with his life experience and the higher wage he gets paid.

Now would I let my 17 year old apprentice go out on his own next year? Not a chance. He will be with me all the way through his apprenticeship. It's a question of not setting people up to fail. I learned far more by going out on my own and doing small jobs than I ever did watching anyone else.

It's foolish to make blanket statements like 'exploitation' and other things as each apprentice needs to be assessed on a case by case basis. There are many 'fully qualified' plumbers I've seen who I would not have working in my house again, I would happily have this guy working in it.

There would be no point in me sending staff out on jobs before they are ready as it would dent his confidence and harm my reputation.

You can't tell me that no firm sends apprentices out on jobs on their own, it happens regularly around here. No harm in it at all when they are ready and capable in my opinion.

 

[cr0ft]

I think no apprentice should be left on their own on a job, when passed level 2 and they are an improver then maybe, for one thing its not what the custards are paying for

This is the great thing about this forum, we can always agree to disagree. I think the customer is paying to have a job done by someone who knows what they are doing. I place very little emphasis on bits of paper to be honest, much more on what someone can do properly and to a high standard.

I think most customers feel the same, it's just not something that's important to them. No one in 6 years has asked me if I am qualified (or to prove it) before they let me work in their home. I do not have an NVQ to my name, should I not be working in someone's home then?

 

[WaterTight]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

 

[Millsy 82]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

You must be mad! I go to work to get away from mine! It's the only time I can drink tea and smoke in peace. Lol.

 

[Rickster123]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

Takes all the fun out of top heavy customers!

 

[newcastle phill]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

What......with your girlfriend ?????

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

This is the great thing about this forum, we can always agree to disagree. I think the customer is paying to have a job done by someone who knows what they are doing. I place very little emphasis on bits of paper to be honest, much more on what someone can do properly and to a high standard.

I think most customers feel the same, it's just not something that's important to them. No one in 6 years has asked me if I am qualified (or to prove it) before they let me work in their home. I do not have an NVQ to my name, should I not be working in someone's home then?

Thats not what I said Croft, is it.

 

[mfgs]

Well he was actually ready this morning so he came to work. We had a chat first thing before we started on site and he was told that he is certainly not due a pay rise and wont be for some time, which he seemed quite shocked about despite me making this clear when taking him on in the first place. It was also pointed out the areas in which he needs to improve. All in all I think he no longer thinks he is at the standard he seemed to believe. He had a bit of a sulk in the morning and didn't really speak much, but perked up this afternoon. I am looking forward to hopefully seeing a change in his attitude to prove himself.

 

[rpm]

Give the donkey a little nibble on a carrot when he does do or say something right just to show your not a mean old git, bit like training a dog if you see what I mean.

 

[mfgs]

Give the donkey a little nibble on a carrot when he does do or say something right just to show your not a mean old git, bit like training a dog if you see what I mean.

I'm not mean and I'm certainly not old haha. Ever since he has started with me, if he has been doing well I have taken him down the café for lunch etc, little things like that.