Quick question to all plumber's mainly self employed

[alph250]

Well said PJE

You pass the test and THEN you start learning how to drive well.

True but its not learning to drive its a trade which takes years to perfect and when you 'learn to drive' this is usually on the unsuspecting public, apprentice trained plumber would have 4-5 years exp on any train 4 trade person.

From what I've heard an old fashioned apprentice spent the first year or two learning how to do things like make the tea, fetch and carry things from and to the van, hold the basin in place while his master screws the thing into the wall and so on.

Er no, where i work we take our apprentices very seriously, afterall the blokes know if they ever want to move up the food ladder we need the young and keen to take our places. Typically an apprentice would do everything a normal plumber would do except he would be supervised and the work inspected, of course there is a certain element of labouring but i think most would agree we started from the bottom and worked our way up, anything i ask someone to do now is something i have done myself in the past.

Interestingly, 48 weeks at 2 hours evening course per week = 96 hours learning. That's three weeks at 32 hours per week. These courses are generally eight weeks plus (or 256 hours of learning!).

No. Interestingly, 4 years at 48 weeks a year at 8 hours a day = 7680 hours of learning, so just to re-cap thats 7680 - 256 = 7424 hours more learning time than a fast track, getting my drift yet?

With my "qualifications" I know how to solder, fix taps and so on. My job usually soldering in new pipe, fixing taps, repairing loos, installing bathrooms, moving or installing radiators and stuff like that. It's not rocket science but I did my course because I wanted to know how to do these jobs properly.

Congratulations, you have a certificate in DIY. An apprenticeship teaches you all that + more and it also teaches you the science and engineering principles behind plumbing, and when you understand & apply these to situations, then you are a tradesman.

If I get a job that requires more ability than I have (e.g. installing a brand new central heating system) I'll back off and recommend a more experienced plumber. One day (in a few years time?), I'll learn enough to be able to do that job myself.

Then one day in a few years time you may be, what i class as a plumber! but hold on in the next sentance you made this statement;

I don't know everything ................... but I do consider myself a "qualified compentent plumber"

If the point you're making is someone new to the industry does not know anything like as much as an old hand I'd agree and think most other fast trackers will as well.

We're not necessarily worse than apprentice trained though. We just have less experience in dealing with things we weren't taught like, how to cope with imperial sized pipes and copper waste pipes.[/quote]

Yes i am making that point, but what i dislike about these 'fasttrackers' is that they cant get employment as they dont have experience so they go out and get there experience on the un-suspecting public, undercut the proper plumbers and make a hash of the job and a hash of the industry because they call themselves plumbers!

And as for how to cope with imperial sizes?!?! if your struggling with that then i suggest you try a different trade! before you even start working as an apprentice i would expect them to have a grasp of numeracy 1" = 25.4mm, 1/2" = 12.7mm etc etc

Now I hope i've got my point across, i have a fast track plumber and after 4 years he's not bad, 10/10 for keeness. But the apprentice's who are just finishing there 4 years run rings round him apart from in the maturity department, and unfortunatley thats the way things are, you want a trade then do it properly, do an apprenticeship

 

[HTB]

Good points well made PJE.

My problem is that although I fit the description of being a fast tracker, my 30 year background in engineering did give me a slight edge over the Carpet Showroom Manager on the bench next to me on my fast track course.

Sitting on a shelf facing me as I type this is is a small silver trophy I was awarded back in 1998 by ETSU (long before I trained as a plumber) where a design I created for a Clean Water uptake and Sewerage Discharge system to be used in a large Chemical Cleaning Facility was entered (not by me but by my superiors) into a National "Ideas" competition. It came 3rd overall in the Complete Competition but won the Environmental element.

It was put into place by the MOD and made savings of over £80,000 year on year, I won't bore you with the details of it, it just worked.

My point being that domestic plumbing is just another form of engineering, and after nearly 5 years of plumbing, I am now training to be a gas technician, where I'm sure the practices I became familiar with as an aircraft technician and as a Qualified ISO 9001 QA auditor, plus my background in Health & Safety will stand me in good stead.

To be fair most of the fast trackers with an engineering background do alright, its the ones with no engineering experience that struggle the most, and to be honest, nature seems to weed them out pretty quickly.

 

[Mushybees]

From what I've heard an old fashioned apprentice spent the first year or two learning how to do things like make the tea, fetch and carry things from and to the van, hold the basin in place while his master screws the thing into the wall and so on. I assume this is why they call these courses fast track because the training centres don't teach you these pointless tasks and get on with teaching you how to solder, the water regs and so on.

Absolute nonsense.
I had to fetch and carry for a few months while the gaffer sussed me out. After he was satisfied I was fairly sharp and I was picking things up quickly I was on the tools all the time.
At the end of my first year I was doing first fix on large central heating jobs.
Granted I was given some cack jobs like chasing walls with hammer and bolster, taking out the cast iron baths and lifting boards but they are all jobs I have to do myself now anyway as an unsupervised plumber.

We're not necessarily worse than apprentice trained though. We just have less experience in dealing with things we weren't taught like, how to cope with imperial sized pipes and copper waste pipes.

That doesn't make sense mate.
There are two plumbers. One has learned all aspects of the trade and the other hasn't.
They both call themselves plumbers and they both have a good work ethic and standard of work.

Which is the better plumber?

 

[james017]

You do make a good point i am just thinking how hard will it be for me to find someone good to take me on as an apprentice? ( considering the current climate we are in) and even if i do the fast track course i would still need the same amount of experiance as an apprentice, my mind is split in two because i dont know if someone would take me on as an apprentice and i have no clue where too look

 

[WaterTight]

I have recently finnished a fast-track course and am now looking for work as a plumber's mate or apprentice. That's how I viewed the course. Not as the equivalent of an apprenticeship, you'd have to be mad (or already very experienced in closely related work) to think so.

My personal take is that I'm prepared to take **** money, do the **** jobs and spend up to half a decade getting the point where I can start to earn a basic plumber's money. It doesn't seem like the world's most unrealistic goal but I guess I'll find out.

I cannot see how I could be any worse than another person looking to start work as an apprentice. Both of us will have to begin from scratch with no on-the-job experience at some point. I just happen to have to done the course already rather than chosen to do it 1 day a week as I go along.

Obviously an apprentice with 4 years experience is going to be better than I am but that's not my competition as I see it. I'm looking to BEGIN as an apprentice with the background of the fast-track course as a leg-up. I know it's not the traditional way of doing it but I hoped having done the course first might prove to be an advantage.

My main obstacle at the moment I guess is the job market and the recession because it turns out I'm being turned down endless times already despite offering to work for free for a few months until I begin to be of use and then for minimum wage. When you aren't accepted to work for free, at the wage of and in the job position of a starter apprentice, with your own tools and transport and the C&G Tech Cert under your belt... well I didn't quite see that coming. Maybe virtually no apprentices are being taken on at all.

 

[Mushybees]

I have recently finnished a fast-track course and am now looking for work as a plumber's mate or apprentice. That's how I viewed the course. Not as the equivalent of an apprenticeship, you'd have to be mad (or already very experienced in closely related work) to think so.

That's a healthy way of looking at it.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, on this forum alone, to suggest that plumbers aren't as in demand as these training centres claim. Yet people still demand that the market accommodates them.

It doesn't make sense.
If I really wanted to be, for instance, a museum curator but there were very few vacancies and many qualified people applying for the same job, I'd rule out that career as the one for me.
I don't blame the people who are flooding the market. I blame the unscrupulous types who have marketed plumbing as the quick and easy way of being your own boss whilst making mega bucks. It's all lies.

 

[gravytrain]

hi everyone, just joined this forum today. this is a really interesting discussion.

i also did a fast track course. i would say there is a big difference between the quality of courses offered. i did the full C + G 6129. this is the same course your average 17 yr old does at college over two years. however i still had to pass the same exams and pass all the same practicals. all work must be +- 2mm or its a fail, and i didn't get ANY lee way. i also really usefully learned how to make a box out of a piece of lead but without any joints or seams, since this comes in really handy these days.

what of course you don't get is experience. many of these training centres claim that you can become a plumber with no previous experience at all. this is the bit that is untrue. if you've never done any building or serious DIY i think you would struggle once you start work. i'm lucky that i have a lot of experience over the years which i have put to good use since.

the other thing is if someone didn't get the chance to do an apprenticeship when they left school at 16 does that rule out anyone from joining a trade.

i'm so glad i left my last job, i've really enjoyed the last six months. i really look after my customers and do the best job i can. any self employed plumber will tell you that work comes from a good reputation and reccommendation so what's the point of doing a crap job.

so far ive had more work than i expected, so i'm really happy.

rob

 

[PJE1098]

I think that your personal achievements are great but unfortunately many "Quickies" are not like yourself...

If this perception of "qualified" was the same in other professions like, Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers Etc... The world would be an even scarier place..

Anyway all the best in your business.. PJE

 

[alph250]

James, Where abouts in the country are you?

There are fors and against for yourself as an apprentice, anyone employing you would be getting a mature level headed person who wants to undertake an apprenticeship, plus you would already be driving (i assume) so it would put you in good stead.

On the other hand they cant pay you a sh*t wage but then if there only after cheap labour it kind of reflects on them. I also think that if you chose an apprenticeship over fast tracking then it would show the potential employer that you are commited to the training and prove yourself as a worthwhile investment.

Also I can't see the logic in spending £5-6K on a fast track course as a 'hop up' onto an apprenticeship, surely your better of saving that £5-6K to supplement your wgaes for the first 1-2 years! or is that common sense!

 

[HTB]

A nice debate with good points all round, thanks PJE, good luck to you and all, hopefully we'll all make through the hard times and reap the benefits when things get better.

 

[dontknowitall]

Hmmm - somehow I just knew that I'd get flack for the post I made!

 

[james017]

James, Where abouts in the country are you?

There are fors and against for yourself as an apprentice, anyone employing you would be getting a mature level headed person who wants to undertake an apprenticeship, plus you would already be driving (i assume) so it would put you in good stead.

On the other hand they cant pay you a sh*t wage but then if there only after cheap labour it kind of reflects on them. I also think that if you chose an apprenticeship over fast tracking then it would show the potential employer that you are commited to the training and prove yourself as a worthwhile investment.

Also I can't see the logic in spending £5-6K on a fast track course as a 'hop up' onto an apprenticeship, surely your better of saving that £5-6K to supplement your wgaes for the first 1-2 years! or is that common sense!

I live in west london and i am 22yrs old, i just dont know where too look for someone to take me on as an apprentice and my local college is telling me apprentice's are being laid off as there is not enough work. Because i am 22yrs old i consider myself as still young and doing a apprenticeship for 3 years with a crappy wage would not effect me

 

[paulbrogden2007]

about tony bryden from train for trade skills


hi i had 2.5 hours interview today from a college adviser a so called person who seemed very nice but at the end i realized he was a salesman turning up in a black audi wanting to discuss the plumbing course where he talked about the shortages being out their however i have a relative in the plumbing trade who says because the down turn plumbers are not needed as much as the gov, say. any way tony discussed my situation such as my debts too wanted to know about my work history the things i had done i live in batley but i found it a very intense interview at the end then he discussed the costs by the end i felt if i had the money would have signed up.... if its a scam i must say its a very good one. any way the costs involved was £3950 or 22.50 per week i think they offer you fianance for the coursethe domestic course part lasts for 1 year which involves 6 weeks practical the rest is theory and virtual relialty training on the computer... their after another year for nvq level 3 and gas training. the full training including the proffesional part costs £5700 and or £35 a week.

he was still insistant their is work out their and claimed after doing the first year... could work doing basic plumbing to pay for the course it is still a loan you have to pay it is quicker than college he claimed full training takes in all about 2-3 years he claimed.

but given what plumbers are saying as well as my relative it appears work is short so maybe becoming a plumber is not a good idea but he was insisting that you need qualifications in a set trade to make a good living and was banging on about this he was saying the evening welding course i was doing wont get me any where as its only a certificate it seems i wont be able to get a job at all based on what he saying very depressing he kept going on about how does it feel to be unemployed how depressed does it make you.. what do you people think? thanks for reading...

 

[Mushybees]

he kept going on about how does it feel to be unemployed how depressed does it make you.. what do you people think? thanks for reading...

The fact that he stooped this low and became that personal speaks volumes about him in my opinion.
As for a certificate not leading to employment it's a funny thing to mention. One of the biggest complaints about these courses is that they provide the relevant qualifications but they are only pieces of paper. They mean nothing to an employer.

 

[alph250]

I live in west london and i am 22yrs old, i just dont know where too look for someone to take me on as an apprentice and my local college is telling me apprentice's are being laid off as there is not enough work. Because i am 22yrs old i consider myself as still young and doing a apprenticeship for 3 years with a crappy wage would not effect me

James, i would search around the facilities management companies, buildings always require maintenance whatever the economic conditions.