Not paying for a job

[stevetheplumber]

personally if that was my work i would get a job in tescos

 

[hammers4spanner]

That work is pants and aint from any decent plumber

 

[IND_Nick]

The whole install looks poor and unfortunately the only way to fix the leak would be to start again, silicone on grout is not a solution. As it has already been stated I would talk to Citizens advice or a consumer lawyer to get the facts right but no one should pay for workmanship this poor.
As said everyone gets the odd leak or something that doesn't go right bit this is terrible from top to bottom. Good luck with it and hopefully you find a decent tradesman to put it all right.

 

[joni os]

Building new wall will be disruptive. Fix 18mm ply, floor to ceiling, and screw tilebacker board to ply. Ply can be fixed to stramit with plugs and adhesive, and screwed through to pads recessed into reverse side of wall. Reinforce joints, scrim, in backer board prior to tiling.
As alternative you could consider shower panels, !0mm faced ply. these would fix to stramit with adhesive.

 

[Stanios]

Hi Triple! Sorry you had such a terrible experience. I also feel sorry for your contractor because if only he knew how to silicon properly he would have gotten paid. I suspect your bath leak is coming from a poor seal.

A good plumber would know to silicone bone dry surfaces only and to tile after fitting the bath so tiles sit on top. If this goes to court please keep us updated and best of luck!

 

[Tonycane]

How did you find this so called plumber? Recommendation or on a web site? Did you see any previous work or ask to see any qualifications/ trade memberships?

 

[firemant]

Rocketman, with respect, I think you are being a bit harsh in the OP. Assuming he is telling the truth re the newness of the product, I probably would not pay for the parts. At the very least, I would be deducting the cost of the ruined product supplied by me.
RM, can you honestly say that the work looks like that of a reasonable tradesman, let alone one at the top his trade.?
I am not a plumber, but a Gas Service Engineer, and HATE bathroom work etc. But I would be embarrassed to put my name to that pile of rubbish.
That said, we know that we only ever hear one side of an argument, but pictures do speak volumes.

 

[TripleD]

How did you find this so called plumber? Recommendation or on a web site? Did you see any previous work or ask to see any qualifications/ trade memberships?

It was on the local street life forum with some recommendations. Saw pictures of his work, apparently been a plumber for 25odd years and lived locally. Didn't see physically any work and didn't see or ask for qualifications. My fault there.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Rocketman, with respect, I think you are being a bit harsh in the OP. Assuming he is telling the truth re the newness of the product, I probably would not pay for the parts. At the very least, I would be deducting the cost of the ruined product supplied by me.
RM, can you honestly say that the work looks like that of a reasonable tradesman, let alone one at the top his trade.?
I am not a plumber, but a Gas Service Engineer, and HATE bathroom work etc. But I would be embarrassed to put my name to that pile of rubbish.
That said, we know that we only ever hear one side of an argument, but pictures do speak volumes.

That's your opinion.

It's up to the op what he wants to do. It's gone from a leak & dodgy silicone to putting in new walls etc.& ripping everything out.

For £1400 compared to other quotes of £2500 imo I think someone thought he was getting a deal.

I ain't involved & as said wouldn't wanna be the one to rectify unless it was all ripped out & started again but it'd cost the right money for the right job & I'd want a depo up front!

I wish the op the best. The job looks crap as we can all see.

 

[TripleD]

That's your opinion.

It's up to the op what he wants to do. It's gone from a leak & dodgy silicone to putting in new walls etc.& ripping everything out.

For £1400 compared to other quotes of £2500 imo I think someone thought he was getting a deal.

I ain't involved & as said wouldn't wanna be the one to rectify unless it was all ripped out & started again but it'd cost the right money for the right job & I'd want a depo up front!

I wish the op the best. The job looks crap as we can all see.

The initial quote was for £2500. The invoice he provided after I refused to pay was for £1400. I paid £340 directly to electrician that was part of initial quote. To date that's £1740.

I wasn't after a deal, I was after a good job, which is far from what I got.

The walls being ripped out is a question and advice that I'm taking on board with reference to cracked grout and wobbly tiles. Not saying that's what I'm doing but surely must be a consideration.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Rocketman, with respect, I think you are being a bit harsh in the OP. Assuming he is telling the truth re the newness of the product, I probably would not pay for the parts. At the very least, I would be deducting the cost of the ruined product supplied by me.
RM, can you honestly say that the work looks like that of a reasonable tradesman, let alone one at the top his trade.?
I am not a plumber, but a Gas Service Engineer, and HATE bathroom work etc. But I would be embarrassed to put my name to that pile of rubbish.
That said, we know that we only ever hear one side of an argument, but pictures do speak volumes.

Also Pal did I say it looked reasonable?

No, I never, it looks like he's done it himself with no practise ever.

The job looks crap.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

What you need is someone in to look & tell you exactly what's wrong & what's needed.

It's all well & good trying to get advice on a forum but it's too difficult as its all - what if this & what about that.

You've had lots of advice & im sure you've spoken to friends etc. about it.

The bathroom needs attention & fixing to your standard that's for sure. You wanted a job done & it's no good.

As I said, if you feel so strongly that you don't want this chap back then you need to get someone else in soon to sort it & if it ends up in court then you fight your battle.

Good luck. I hope it gets sorted.

 

[joni os]

The plumber should have consulted you as soon as stramit was discovered. You obviously didn't realize it was unsuitable for tiling but as a professional he should have. In any tiling work it is essential to have a stable background.
Should you receive a County Court claim, be sure to defend within the time limit and put in counter claim for whole cost of new work. The original claimant must also defend the counter claim within the time scale. If he fails to do this, seek a judgement by default and you will be awarded the counter claim without appearing in court.
As the counter claim will exceed the original the "plumber" would be stupid to pursue you through the court.

 

[TripleD]

Thanks everyone. As Rocketman says I need to get someone professional in to review and quote, but the advice from everyone is much appreciated.

 

[joni os]

You have posted on a plumber's forum suggesting you don't pay your plumber. No one has attacked you. After this, appearing in court before a neutral judge should hold no fears.

 

[TripleD]

You have posted on a plumber's forum suggesting you don't pay your plumber. No one has attacked you. After this, appearing in court before a neutral judge should hold no fears.

Lol

 

[plumben]

Thanks everyone. As Rocketman says I need to get someone professional in to review and quote, but the advice from everyone is much appreciated.

personally when im asked to provide a qoute for a bathroom i tell all my customers that standard is between £3000-£6000 depending on the work and materials the customer wants
as i do everything apart from any plastering and final decoration

My advice would be to rip out and start again, all walls need to be solid if tiles are going on any movement will result in cracked tiles, although you can use shower wall/wet wall instead of tiles, less joints

 

[julesverne]

Shocking work. I wouldnt pay him a penny and certainly never get him back and never ever use PVA for tiling or plastering for that matter

 

[joni os]

PVA ok for plastering. Controls suction on porous surfaces and aids adhesion when skimming old plaster. Just don't use in continuous damp conditions. SBR for damp and mixing with cement based tiling adhesive for additional bond.

 

[REDSAW]

seen better jobs done by a builder, joiner, tiler, sparky landscape gardener taxi driver i know!.

must pay him for materials on production of cost only receipt there un-paid for goods!.
dont have to pay for labour charge but can charge him for job to be rectified.

the silicone can be pealed off chrome with thumb.
the rest wants ripping and re-doing though. start with water supplies and check for leaks before anything else is installed.

as for the tiles, i would fit pvc shower boards and glue to wall, that would never leak if done properly. it would take me a day to do that at half the price of tiles you bought.
timber and batten the bath/shower so it dont move and leave for a couple of days to set.

job done!.

btw, the leak might be coming from the screen upright section. not filling the base before fitting gives an un-detected leak that runs along the bath. sealing inside makes it worse as the section fillswith water through glass seals and other places.

 

[TripleD]

Have spoken with Citizens advice, they have said:
I could pay the invoice in full under protest to stop any court proceedings then try and claim back part of the money once it's fixed.
Or I can pay for materials only.
Or I should keep up communication with him, until such time as the faults have been rectified by him or another trades person and come to a mutual agreement.

I'm thinking that his materials minus the cost of what has been damaged or needs replacing, i.e. having to re-tile the bathroom so new tiles, damaged pipe to bath filler etc and then paying the balance. he wouldn't end up with much.

Not sure I want a court battle but CA said you have a strong position as you have let him try and fix it 6 times and photographic evidence, but they advise that it's better to come to a mutual agreement than drag it through court.

So pretty much said what most people on here have said. It's christmas now so nothing is going to get done until the new year, I'm looking at shower panels as a replacement to the tiles if that is the issue, but will have to be guided by another trades person, so I'll have to start my hunt for one in January.
__________________

 

[quality]

there are plenty of decent trade people on here

 

[TripleD]

there are plenty of decent trade people on here

Any around the Ipswich or Suffolk area want to price it up?

 

[quality]

I will bet santa coming tonight that there is, put a post in the I am looking for a plumber forum

 

[joni os]

Do not part with any money at this stage. Before court action, claimant must send, "letter before action" giving you notice and time to pay. On receipt of such letter, respond, recording his 6 failed attempts to rectify the problems and notification that should he proceed with action through the courts, you will counter claim for the full cost of all remedial work, together with your direct and consequential losses.

 

[s.hemming]

personally if that was my work i would get a job in tescos

best reply ever

 

[Phil]

Another rushed bodged bathroom. Total and unequivocal rip out and redo.

Don't pay him his labour, he made the decision not to get paid by rushing and bodging. Look at the state of those tile trim mitres.

I say mitres, he hasn't even bothered!

 

[Ric2013]

It's rough indeed. I think, though, he'd have got away with it if it only hadn't leaked. To smear more silicone on top of old and leave it that rough is not excuseable - there is no reason not to make it look neat.

I wonder whether the plumber has developed dementia or something - this does not look like even an experienced DIYers work. Or he has no experience whatsoever.

 

[Chalked]

Stramitt board is awful stuff to tile to, but it can be done.

Mix powdered flexii adhesive with a water and SBR mix (like a slurry) apply a thin coat, ike plaster. When dry tile as normal.

 

[Phil]

Stramitt board is awful stuff to tile to, but it can be done.

Mix powdered flexii adhesive with a water and SBR mix (like a slurry) apply a thin coat, ike plaster. When dry tile as normal.

I've come across it once but never tiled to it, I don't think I'd dare for fear of problems. What is the idea of this board? How old is the stuff? does it pre date plasterboard?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Easy to put up like the cardboard walls and didmt require much structure but you have to be careful as some did contain ab

 

[Staffy85]

from what ive read, looks like the walls should of been stripped off to the bare stud work and wedi boarded, tiles don't just come loose and no amount of silicone will fix that, IMO its his fault for tiling on top of crap, he could argue the price in that no allowance was made for that but you wouldn't build a house on crap foundations and if you did then it would still be your fault! bathrooms aren't cheap and you certainly don't want to cut corners as you have found out, even though the o.p didn't cut corners as he probably thought it was all being taken care of professionally! sucks but IMO It all needs stripping out...

 

[Phil]

Is this stuff attached to studwork? or is it some kind of prefabricated eggbox and straw wall?

If it can be simply ripped back to studwork I cant understand why he didn't do this.

 

[WaterTight]

it's rubbish work but i see every bit as bad work every day. if it hadn't leaked and the tiles had stayed put for 12 months he'd have probably got away with it as it would have just been "bad finishing."

the flexi is fit to burst but there are currently 50 billion out there in the same condition happily biding their time. i change one that burst this morning. bank holiday monday call out thank you very much what what.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Is this stuff attached to studwork? or is it some kind of prefabricated eggbox and straw wall?

If it can be simply ripped back to studwork I cant understand why he didn't do this.

not may studs/ timbers they come in i think 8 foot by 4 panels so every 4 foot theres a timber

 

[JCSPLUMBING]

Horrific workmanship. Rip out and redo in my opinion

 

[andyplumber2009]

Definitely rip out. but possibly not all.
Get some proper quotes, you may only have to replace a few rows of tiles.
Seems odd to me to silicon inside and outside of shower enclosure.
flexi's will definitely have to be replaced.
IMO, you should compromise on materials, NOT labour. Move on, get several quotes and start a new year on a positive note

 

[Radioman]

Oh dear. It's all been said earlier but here are a couple of tips and hints for the future. And for my 2 cents worth: you will never make that job any good without ripping it out and starting from scratch. You will never make that mess look good. Personally I detest poly wall panel I think it looks poor and I hate working with it.

With the amount of water leaked into the walls and floor it will take some time to dry out. And it must be dry before further work is started. I have only come across a similar material once before and due to a slow leak from a cwt the wall actually started to grow, swell, and sprouted. It was made from hay I believe. Judging by the black mould in the video, is this leak new or just worse?

Check to see if a fitter has a public liability insurance that covers the trades that you are paying for. If not then do not use him. If he has then you can claim against his insurance to have the work done again due to the damage he has caused.

Also some PLI have what's known as an efficacy clause. This insurers for bad workmanship.

Did you get a Building Reg Prt P cert from the electrician? If not then chase him up for it. He has a limited time to register your work. If he is not part of the self cert scheme you will need to get building controls in to cert the work. Average cost in the UK is £150 to £350 for that. Legally You will need that cert if you sell the property.

Check to see that the aqualisa shower was fitted as per manufacturers exact spec. If not the 5 year warranty will be invalid. As a retired aqualisa approved installer I can tell you they are getting much stricter with that. BTW the aqualisa web site is a good place to find an approved bathroom installer.

Consider making a claim on your buildings insurance for the water damage if your installer does not have a valid PLI. You may recover all your costs that way.

Normally I tend to side with the tradesman in these disputes but if everything you have told us is the truth and you would need to swear to that in court, then I think you have been badly done by. If you do go to court you are entitled to legal representation, the cost of which is reclaimable. Most house insurance has that thrown in anyway.

I would not entertain any further visits from your man.

 

[Daniel Hall]

If it was me coming to sort that out then it would be getting taken out, cleaned up the fitted back in properly. That would be the only option id offer

 

[TripleD]

Oh dear. It's all been said earlier but here are a couple of tips and hints for the future. And for my 2 cents worth: you will never make that job any good without ripping it out and starting from scratch. You will never make that mess look good. Personally I detest poly wall panel I think it looks poor and I hate working with it.

With the amount of water leaked into the walls and floor it will take some time to dry out. And it must be dry before further work is started. I have only come across a similar material once before and due to a slow leak from a cwt the wall actually started to grow, swell, and sprouted. It was made from hay I believe. Judging by the black mould in the video, is this leak new or just worse?

There was a leak originally which was why we looked at getting a whole new bathroom. We advised all fitters of this when they came round, and pointed out the issues plus the type of walls they were dealing with.

Check to see if a fitter has a public liability insurance that covers the trades that you are paying for. If not then do not use him. If he has then you can claim against his insurance to have the work done again due to the damage he has caused.

Also some PLI have what's known as an efficacy clause. This insurers for bad workmanship.

I didn't check these, how do I find out if they have insurance? or is this only done by contacting them and requesting it?

Did you get a Building Reg Prt P cert from the electrician? If not then chase him up for it. He has a limited time to register your work. If he is not part of the self cert scheme you will need to get building controls in to cert the work. Average cost in the UK is £150 to £350 for that. Legally You will need that cert if you sell the property.

I have checked this, the job has been registered so I have been told.

Check to see that the aqualisa shower was fitted as per manufacturers exact spec. If not the 5 year warranty will be invalid. As a retired aqualisa approved installer I can tell you they are getting much stricter with that. BTW the aqualisa web site is a good place to find an approved bathroom installer.

I have been looking round for trades today to come in and quote for the remedial work, I have asked them to check all aspects of the plumbing work, separately I have been looking for a tiler via the checkatrade website hopefully they can advise on what needs to be done.

Consider making a claim on your buildings insurance for the water damage if your installer does not have a valid PLI. You may recover all your costs that way.

Normally I tend to side with the tradesman in these disputes but if everything you have told us is the truth and you would need to swear to that in court, then I think you have been badly done by. If you do go to court you are entitled to legal representation, the cost of which is reclaimable. Most house insurance has that thrown in anyway.

I would not entertain any further visits from your man.

Thank you for your advice, never thought about Buildings Insurance claim, I will see what the cost of the work will come to, and make a decision from their.
What I have put is the truth, I thought this site would be full or trades people that will just back each other, but I wanted to get some advice from proper trades people on which way I should take this, and everyone has given useful advice, and things I hadn't thought of. Ripping out and starting again isn't something I really relish, but if that's how it gets sorted properly, then that's the way it will have to be.

Just hope second time round it will all work out.

 

[Best]

If you do need evidence of bad workmanship for court, take plenty of photographs at all stages of removal and also get reports from experts (qualified plumbers and other trades).
Courts won't just accept your word

 

[Chalked]

Don't use checkatrade for references, ask your neighbours if they have had any work. Or know anyone. Personal recommendation is always best.
Ask the new guy for examples of his work and contact those customers to confirm!

You won't offend, I get asked for pictures of my work on bathrooms all the time.

 

[Millsy 82]

Don't use checkatrade for references, ask your neighbours if they have had any work. Or know anyone. Personal recommendation is always best.
Ask the new guy for examples of his work and contact those customers to confirm!

You won't offend, I get asked for pictures of my work on bathrooms all the time.

What's wrong with Checkatrade? I'm on I don't bodge things, rip people off leave leaks (or if I do by mistake I sort it)

 

[Chalked]

What's wrong with Checkatrade? I'm on I don't bodge things, rip people off leave leaks (or if I do by mistake I sort it)

All I'm saying is the best way of checking someone's work is to see it.

 

[Millsy 82]

All I'm saying is the best way of checking someone's work is to see it.

I agree but unless you take people round to jobs that you have done how do they know that's your work off photos and not something you have pinched off the internet?

 

[Radioman]

There was a leak originally which was why we looked at getting a whole new bathroom. We advised all fitters of this when they came round, and pointed out the issues plus the type of walls they were dealing with.



I didn't check these, how do I find out if they have insurance? or is this only done by contacting them and requesting it?



I have checked this, the job has been registered so I have been told.



I have been looking round for trades today to come in and quote for the remedial work, I have asked them to check all aspects of the plumbing work, separately I have been looking for a tiler via the checkatrade website hopefully they can advise on what needs to be done.



Thank you for your advice, never thought about Buildings Insurance claim, I will see what the cost of the work will come to, and make a decision from their.
What I have put is the truth, I thought this site would be full or trades people that will just back each other, but I wanted to get some advice from proper trades people on which way I should take this, and everyone has given useful advice, and things I hadn't thought of. Ripping out and starting again isn't something I really relish, but if that's how it gets sorted properly, then that's the way it will have to be.

Just hope second time round it will all work out.

You should receive a form from the electrician which is a self certification form issued by one of the only two bodies in the UK legally authorised to do so. NIECC AND NAPPI. The tradesman has to submit this form to the organisation and a few weeks later you will get a cert from building control. The trade has to give you that paperwork. If they don't you need to report this to building control. They will prosecute.

Ask trades for copies of their insurance. I always supplied one with the estimate, not offended or suspicious if asked. In fact proud to give it, also same for certs of qualifications, references etc etc.

Don't reckon check a trade etc etc. Too easy to fake results imho.

Also imho tilers are tilers. Builders are builders. Word of mouth and personal recommendations are always the best imho. You're local trading standards will have a list of qualified trades. So will building control. Well they do in Hertfordshire anyway.

 

[TripleD]

Sorry to resurrect my thread, but an update on proceedings.
On the 5th Jan I issued a letter to the fitter stating the issues we found, and our intent to withhold payment it was reviewed but other professionals, if the quote for rectification work was under the invoice amount, we would subtract this from the invoice and pay the remainder.

No answer to letter.

We had a family recommended plumber to quote, the shower has all been plumbed incorrectly so warranty is void, pipes not lagged etc. Has quoted for work.
Recommended tiler laughed at pictures of before, said there's 2 choices, Tiler Backer/Aqua panel 12mm put onto wall, and then tiled over or replace wall.
Also have the shower screen manufacturers technician visit to review the shower screen, he noted the amount of silicone, said it had not been fitted correctly, pointed out the thick bead of silicone on the outside was to cover the holes that had been drilled in the tiles where the screen had been incorrectly fitted, and said it's still not fitted correctly.

Total for rectifying work is £1800

Sent follow up letter to fitter stating this, and formally refusing payment. So as not to have this dragging on we have suggested that he can keep the £250 deposit and that is the matter finished with him and allows us to commission the repair work. He has 10 working days to respond of which 5 is over currently. No response as yet.

I did see his van this morning when walking the dog, felt like warning the home owner, but not sure that's my place to do so.

 

[TripleD]

Duplicated post - Sorry

 

[oz-plumber]

Sounds fair and reasonable - from what you have told us.

You may want to get legal advice to make sure you are acting within the Law.
You may want to get a lawyer to send letters for you.

As for warning the other homeowner about your experiences - don't get involved.
If they ask you, tell them as much as you dare

 

[TripleD]

As for warning the other homeowner about your experiences - don't get involved.
If they ask you, tell them as much as you dare

True, best keep out of it. I just want my situation sorted.

As for the solicitor, I could but it's all additional cost on my side to do that. Ideally he responds accepting the situation, and the agreement is made. I need to tread carefully after 10 days, but checking with the CAB it's best to make an agreement outside of solicitors.