Not paying for a job

[TripleD]

Hi All,

I'm on the other end of of this stick, I employed a bathroom fitter/plumber to replace my bathroom completely, paid him a £250 deposit.
It took him about a week on and off (on and off as plasterer, electrician, floor fitter was doing work), a week ago last friday he installed the shower screen and setup the shower.
On Saturday we advised of a leak on the floor, he came back Monday to finish other work and re-sealed the bath, Tuesday morning advised the leak was still there, he came back each day Tuesday - Friday and apparently 'fixed' the leak. It leaked over the weekend, so he came back this monday just gone, and made it a whole lot worse, now instead of a small leak I now have a water fall under the bath!

I have refused to pay him any money, and refused entry. He's had 6 chances to rectify the situation, and from what I can see it's not in the realms of bodging it. Silicone is everywhere including grout lines and slurged up the inside of the bath where it meets the wall from underneath.
He wants to be paid for the parts at least, and I'm refusing. From what I can see the tiles have not been correctly put up, the grout is cracked and tiles move.
I can't trust his work, and now face the bill of getting another trades person in to remove the tiles, and I need to order another £250 worth of tiles to do the job properly.

Am I being too harsh not paying him a penny, or am I well within my rights? There was no intention of not paying him, but with all these problems, and the mounting number of finishing issues I feel it's the only way.
I've already been threatened with ripping the pipe work out and small claims court.

I know most people here are going to be plumbers, and I may get crucified, but I'm asking advice as a consumer.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Hi TripleD, and welcome to the forum.

It would be helpful to see some photos, and even if you are not comfortable putting them on the internet, I would recommend taking copious photos anyway.

Without hearing both sides of the argument, its difficult to give an informed answer. For example, if he has supplied £10,000 worth of materials, and you are refusing to pay him a penny, that sounds pretty unreasonable to me.

On the other hand, if, through poor workmanship, he has rendered materials worthless - then he can't expect you to pay for them.

I'd want to see pics, and hear the other side of the story before coming to a conclusion. (Unless the pics were really bad!)

 

[SimonG]

Welcome to the forum

Leaks occur, it's a fact of life. It's how you deal with them that makes the difference.

There are also two sides to a story, not that I'm doubting what you have said.

I would say that half a dozen attempts is more than enough. Very frustrating for yourself. I have had an issue with a particular shower install that I have been back to twice. Customers been very good, but I have booked in with the customer for next week to pull the enclosure and tray and resolve once and for all, at my expense. I want the customer to be happy and have confidence in the install.

I'm afraid that you have somebody at the other end of the spectrum. Was he the cheapest? Did he come recommended? Did you see other works he completed? Did he supply primer, adhesive and grout?

I would think you need to take advice of your rights, as the law changed in October this year to afford more protection to the consumer.

You could post your location for somebody on here to have a look at it for you.

 

[TripleD]

Thanks all.
I supplied all large items, bath, tiles, shower etc.

He supplied Plasterer, pipe work, electrician, grout, adhesives, tile trim, new wooden floor etc. We're not talking vast sums of money, his invoice was for £1400 given the issues with parts and labour, I was initially quoted around £2500.
Electrician billed me directly, there was no issues with his work, his invoice was paid promptly.
Plasterer did an appalling job, came back and offered me £40 refund (I have not paid plasterer that was paid by fitter).
He wasn't the cheapest, and was found on a local forum with recommendations, he lives nearby < 1 mile, I met him, he showed me pictures of his work.

I agree there are two sides to every story, but I'm currently in a position where it's nearly christmas, and with only 1 bathroom in the house I cannot have a shower.

I would much rather a happy person working in my house and doing a good job and pay them a reasonable amount of money then a cheap bodge it person.

I don't want to post pictures. but I have taken copious amounts of pictures and video's of the issues.

 

[SimonG]

Why do you not want to post pictures?

 

[TripleD]

Why do you not want to post pictures?

No other reason than if he becomes difficult I want to have an amoury of pictures whereby he doesn't have time to make up some bad excuses.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

? is he on here then?

 

[Ray Stafford]

No other reason than if he becomes difficult I want to have an amoury of pictures whereby he doesn't have time to make up some bad excuses.

If you end up in court, you will normally have to supply in advance any photos which you want to be admitted as evidence.

I'm not sure what you want from the forum TripleD? If you are looking for an informed judgement, then inform us by sharing the photos. If you just want people to agree with you, post a trite, sentimental quote on facebook!

 

[SimonG]

For the work he has done then its cheap.

Sounds fishy then. If it's poor work then it's poor work. Maybe sounds not as poor as you are making out.

Definitely two sides.

 

[TripleD]

? is he on here then?

No idea.

If you end up in court, you will normally have to supply in advance any photos which you want to be admitted as evidence.

I'm not sure what you want from the forum TripleD? If you are looking for an informed judgement, then inform us by sharing the photos. If you just want people to agree with you, post a trite, sentimental quote on facebook!

Ok, point taken. Like the facebook quote

For the work he has done then its cheap.

Sounds fishy then. If it's poor work then it's poor work. Maybe sounds not as poor as you are making out.

Definitely two sides.

I think the £1400 represents that I'm not happy with the work.

Pictures and video's uploading soon then....

 

[TripleD]

Okay, forum says I'm unable to post URL's?

Try this with the usual in front: 1drv.ms/1OiT4DI

 

[Ray Stafford]

That link in full

 

[Ray Stafford]

Quite a lot of silicon around!

 

[rocketmanbkk]

The shower tray & enclosure don't look new

 

[rocketmanbkk]

In pic 2 bottom left it looks like old scale/leak discolour. Pic 2 top right ish looks like the chrome enclosure isn't new.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

There is a lot of silicone but imo £1400 isn't a lot of money. He's spent half that in silicone ! Only joking

Back to the point, the tray & enclosure aren't new.

What the plumber saying then?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Look at that flexi it's bent 90 right on the fitting

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Hi All,

I'm on the other end of of this stick, I employed a bathroom fitter/plumber to replace my bathroom completely, paid him a £250 deposit.
It took him about a week on and off (on and off as plasterer, electrician, floor fitter was doing work), a week ago last friday he installed the shower screen and setup the shower.
On Saturday we advised of a leak on the floor, he came back Monday to finish other work and re-sealed the bath, Tuesday morning advised the leak was still there, he came back each day Tuesday - Friday and apparently 'fixed' the leak. It leaked over the weekend, so he came back this monday just gone, and made it a whole lot worse, now instead of a small leak I now have a water fall under the bath!

I have refused to pay him any money, and refused entry. He's had 6 chances to rectify the situation, and from what I can see it's not in the realms of bodging it. Silicone is everywhere including grout lines and slurged up the inside of the bath where it meets the wall from underneath.
He wants to be paid for the parts at least, and I'm refusing. From what I can see the tiles have not been correctly put up, the grout is cracked and tiles move.
I can't trust his work, and now face the bill of getting another trades person in to remove the tiles, and I need to order another £250 worth of tiles to do the job properly.

Am I being too harsh not paying him a penny, or am I well within my rights? There was no intention of not paying him, but with all these problems, and the mounting number of finishing issues I feel it's the only way.
I've already been threatened with ripping the pipe work out and small claims court.

I know most people here are going to be plumbers, and I may get crucified, but I'm asking advice as a consumer.

You say you can't trust his work, tiles & grout no good etc.

Why didn't you approach him when you noticed it? Don't say you didn't look before he finished as I know that when a tradesman leaves a property for the day customers go & have a good old look at what's going on, I know I do.

Why won't you pay for materials?

Are you disputing his materials as well as his labour charge?

 

[TripleD]

There is a lot of silicone but imo £1400 isn't a lot of money. He's spent half that in silicone ! Only joking

Back to the point, the tray & enclosure aren't new.

What the plumber saying then?

All was brand new and unpacked when they started on the 7th Dec.

Plumber wants paying for materials, or to come back for a 7th time to fix the leak.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

The op supplied larger items - as I said to me from the pics supplied they don't look new.

But saying that the chap took the work on.

It's seems a case of you vs him

Tell us what he's saying about your disputes

Have you pointed out specifically what you're not happy with?

List them here.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

All was brand new and unpacked when they started on the 7th Dec.

Plumber wants paying for materials, or to come back for a 7th time to fix the leak.

How do you explain the rusty colour stain on the bottom left of pic 2. That's a stain that won't occur overnight.

 

[TripleD]

You say you can't trust his work, tiles & grout no good etc.

Why didn't you approach him when you noticed it? Don't say you didn't look before he finished as I know that when a tradesman leaves a property for the day customers go & have a good old look at what's going on, I know I do.

Why won't you pay for materials?

Are you disputing his materials as well as his labour charge?

I looked around and noticed bits that I mentioned like tile trim mitre, leak etc.

I'm disputing paying anything as the job has not been completed, and is substandard.
As been mentioned, the flexi pipe being bent is something more recent as we have been going through checking.
Why should I pay parts or anything?

With grout cracked and tiles wobbling, I paid for the tiles so I now need to pay again for more tiles, so my parts costs are going up. Why should I be out of pocket?

 

[rocketmanbkk]

I looked around and noticed bits that I mentioned like tile trim mitre, leak etc.

I'm disputing paying anything as the job has not been completed, and is substandard.
As been mentioned, the flexi pipe being bent is something more recent as we have been going through checking.
Why should I pay parts or anything?

With grout cracked and tiles wobbling, I paid for the tiles so I now need to pay again for more tiles, so my parts costs are going up. Why should I be out of pocket?

Don't have a pop at me pal. You're here for advice. If you don't like what you hear then don't ask.

Bye

 

[TripleD]

How do you explain the rusty colour stain on the bottom left of pic 2. That's a stain that won't occur overnight.

From the plastering? He fitted bath, and tiled wall before plasterer came in.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

No more interest from me

Maybe others will have

Take him to court

What else do you want to hear?

Pay a chartered surveyor to calculate the jobs worth. Spend good money after bad.

Seems your the type

 

[TripleD]

Don't have a pop at me pal. You're here for advice. If you don't like what you hear then don't ask.

Bye

Sorry, I'm not having a pop at you, please don't take it like that. I was trying to explain that I don't want to pay for anything because as it sits at the moment I will have to spend out more money on buying the tiles again to redo the wall.
If I pay his materials and not his labour fine, but then I'm out of pocket for his bad workmanship.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Sorry, I'm not having a pop at you, please don't take it like that. I was trying to explain that I don't want to pay for anything because as it sits at the moment I will have to spend out more money on buying the tiles again to redo the wall.
If I pay his materials and not his labour fine, but then I'm out of pocket for his bad workmanship.

What's the so called plumber saying?

 

[TripleD]

What's the so called plumber saying?

that's just it, he's saying nothing except:
1) Wanting to be paid for Materials
2) Wanting to be let back again to sort the problems.

If I don't do 1), he's threatened small claims court, if I allow 2) then he'll hold off on the small claims court.

Apart from that there has been nothing else.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

So it's your choice, if you're not happy & you can find someone else to do the work (I wouldn't) negotiate with him his fee less whoever agrees to fix it.

Or, let him try again

Or DIY

Or court. If you genuinely feel you've got a case to dispute then go to court.

I don't seen any other options

what town are you in?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Are his previous "return visits" to fix problems documented? (emails, texts etc?)

You are entitled to have a proper and workmanlike job done. You are not obliged to pay for a shoddy job.

If there are problems, he is entitled to the opportunity to correct them. However, he isn't entitled to endless re-tries. Whats reasonable depends on the nature of the job, but probably two or at most three attempts would be the max. Final decision would be up to the court.

However, if you don't pay him for materials that he has supplied, then he is entitled to have them back. Once they are fixed, he cannot simply un-fix them - he would have to go to court to claim them, but they are his property, not yours. The same does not apply to consumables - if he consumes consumables in the course of doing an unsatisfactory job, thats tough on him.

The point that Rocket was making was pertinent. The photos look like they are of quite an old installation. Has this dispute been going on for a long time?

 

[jonnyswamp]

I don't like slagging people off, but that's **** poor work
That flexi looks like a 1/2" x 15mm comp, with the parralel thread of the comp end being used as 1/2" MI
From what you've shown, I doubt I would pay either
If the tiles are loose as well, it would be better to strip it all out and start again

 

[TripleD]

So it's your choice, if you're not happy & you can find someone else to do the work (I wouldn't) negotiate with him his fee less whoever agrees to fix it.

Or, let him try again

Or DIY

Or court. If you genuinely feel you've got a case to dispute then go to court.

I don't seen any other options

what town are you in?

I'm in Ipswich.

So you would suggest letting them come back, detailing out an issues list and letting them try again?
They have been back 6 times already to try and fix the leak, and each time more silicone is being used, and the job is getting more messy. You have seen the amount of Silicone and silicone residue on the shower screen. I asked for this to be cleaned as he has removed the shower screen multiple times to reseal it.

DIY isn't an option, I know my limits and plumbing a strong one.

Court, well if I have to, but would rather not.

I'm thinking another person to fix the issues. Then minus the cost of replacements/fixing from the bill, then paying him the balance.

 

[TripleD]

The point that Rocket was making was pertinent. The photos look like they are of quite an old installation. Has this dispute been going on for a long time?

Work started on the 7th December this year the last visit was on the 21st December when the second leak started.
I'm worried your thinking/seeing these as used or old parts, everything is brand new.

 

[jonnyswamp]

What sort of bath tap/shower mixer have you got, looks like some sort mixing valve mounted on the bath, if that's the case then that is what could be leaking when shower is being run and not the silicon joint
That's just speculation as you haven't posted a pic of the bath tap etc

 

[TripleD]

What sort of bath tap/shower mixer have you got, looks like some sort mixing valve mounted on the bath, if that's the case then that is what could be leaking when shower is being run and not the silicon joint
That's just speculation as you haven't posted a pic of the bath tap etc

Yes, sorry, I have an Aqualisa Quartz Digital with Bath filler. So there are no taps it comes out of the overflow to fill the bath with a processing unit in the loft and a diverter to control the switch between bath fill and shower.
Leak I believe is not silicone related but more to do with the cracked grout and wobbling tiles. Although I was told that your should always fill a bath before using silicone to see the bath to the tiles. This was not done.