Changing the MCS

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unguided1

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So many people that I speak to around the country are complaining about the MCS being too expensive for one man bands and small companies and have no idea what to do about. There have been many people on this forum asking and talking about the MCS, and saying its to expensive, especially me, well now is the time to stop whineing about it and get off our backsides and do something to claim our trade back that is rightfully ours, the trade that we have worked hard for, and trained hard for all our lives.


Mickw has a proven track record for getting something done when he got the industry and the government to adopt the boiler scrapage scheme. How many of you would have gone under with out that boost to our industry, I know I made money out of it.

He has now agreed to be our industry voice to get something done about the ridiculous MCS that has been proven to be a complete nonsense since its invention and is holding back many a good business because of its physical cost and office mentality, all well and good if your a trained office chimp, well I for one am not, I have been a heating engineer since 1979 I was trained on solid fuel, oil and gas, even more importantly I was also trained to design and install heating systems, what are the qualifications worth that I attained today absolutely nothing, the fact that I am Gas Safe registered means that I can install an appliance on to any system wether safe or dangerous doesnt matter as the only thing that is important is the appliance and right now it is the same for MCS. So I say it is time that we tell the industry and the government that they have got it wrong and it is high time that things changed for the better with more focus on the engineering of the whole system instead of turning us engineers into puppet like office chimps, If they want a QMS and I am doing something I dont want then I want to be paid for it, but why should I pass my costs on to my customer.


So Mickw has got this Blog and he is one voice, one voice will never be heard without support so back him in his fight to help the little man because without support we will lose our industry to a never ending pile of paperwork beurocrats extortionate charges with more hidden charges regulations and fine print, and that is not the trade I signed up for Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
 
I feel exactly the same, I started my apprenticeship in 1978 and I agree about having to re-learn what we already have qualifications in........ City and Guilds actually meant something then.
 
It'll be like trying to get the brown stuff to flow uphill, surprising how many times you see piework trying to do just that!

Anyway count me in, I love a challenge. :)
 
I'm happy to help if I'm told what to do and how I can help.

There's something wrong where the "bigwigs" are on at the public about global warming but not helping the little wigs (earwigs?) try to do something about it without having to pay enormous sums of money on paperwork.

Same is happening with the water shortage this year. Have any of you plumbers received ANYTHING on advising customers? Has the public been told not to wash cars?* Has industry started to save water?

Nothing will happen until (temporary) legislation is in place to lower our consumption.


* I'm thinking of enscribing my van with "Dirty van - Saving water".
 
the Link to mickw blog is at the bottom of my post, let your fingers be your voice give him the support so that he can assist us to claim our trade back as our own, Be brave whats the worst that could happen!!!!!!!!!!!.............. well OK we could end up drinking Dr Pepper.........Uuuuuurgh
 
Dr Pepper.. didn't he poison those folk way back... erm, nope sorry, that was Crippen...:dunce2:
 
Dr Pepper is ok, its the root beer I can't stand. The youngest loves it, smells like germolene.
 
guess that answers our question about how many gas engineers there are...120,000 lol

but how to do we show our support ?
 
Thing is I'm a 1 man band and got my assessment on 20july so I'd be gutted if I went through all this to suddenly find there was an easy way out. Personally I've adopted my business too it and have incorporated a few bits. Don't get me wrong it's still ott but if it protects us from cowboys unlike gas safe I'm all for it, likeI said I've got used to it so it's not impossible it's about making your business work for you
 
GQuigley67 said:
guess that answers our question about how many gas engineers there are...120,000 lol

but how to do we show our support ?
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Its a blog so to show your support say how you feel on it whether for or against,you will be amazed at the sort of people who read these things, the time for action is now so make your voice heard
 
eaton said:
Thing is I'm a 1 man band and got my assessment on 20july so I'd be gutted if I went through all this to suddenly find there was an easy way out. Personally I've adopted my business too it and have incorporated a few bits. Don't get me wrong it's still ott but if it protects us from cowboys unlike gas safe I'm all for it, likeI said I've got used to it so it's not impossible it's about making your business work for you
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Hi Eaton
I would say this, you now have a business model for your business that you can be proud of and works for you and in the long term it will enhance your business. The MCS does not stop the cowboys despite all the claims being made, as I have stated I have met DIYers doing a better job than an MCS accredited engineers, Also the MCS only covers the appliance and does not encompass the whole heating system which to my mind is like some teenage muppet putting a V12 engine into an Austin Allegro arguably the worst car ever built.
I feel that it is not just the MCS that needs changing but the whole industry including how we train new engineers. Currently to be a proffesional costs us thousands of pounds a year, those costs we have to factor into every job we do, so our overheads are a lot higher than the cowboys.
 
I totally agree, the MCS doesn't "prevent" anything, it promotes and helps create a Quality business model which long term may improve the competitive edge of a business. It is basically a badge to prove that you have set up a working business model based on a QMS and the "technical" side of assessment is supposed to prove that you are working to the business model. It doesnt assess whether your installations are quality, only your business procedures. This is only too evident that we now have double glazing firms offering solar PV and solar thermal installations. How can a business which predominately installs windows suddenly be expert at installing renewable technologies? It takes years of experience and unless they have all acquired heating/electrical businesses then I can only assume they are subcontracting the work, which in my view doesn't prevent cowboys, as the installers are effectively by-passing the MCS.
I'm not detracting from businesses who are MCS,I myself am in the process purely to try and get some of the work which is being directed away from me.
 
Thanks for all the support.

As unguided1 said, the best way that you can show your support right now is to add a comment to the blog (Comment box at the bottom)

It only takes a minute and the more comments that are there the better.

I have to say, that I admire the guys that are going for accreditation now. It is tough, expensive and totally over the top to attain accreditation and a large ongoing overhead, but it is important that small businesses don't let the big boys have it all their own way when the grants and incentives eventually get here.

Please leave your comment, for or against, on the blog and let's see if we can make a difference!
 
eaton said:
Thing is I'm a 1 man band and got my assessment on 20july so I'd be gutted if I went through all this to suddenly find there was an easy way out. Personally I've adopted my business too it and have incorporated a few bits. Don't get me wrong it's still ott but if it protects us from cowboys unlike gas safe I'm all for it, likeI said I've got used to it so it's not impossible it's about making your business work for you
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I understand how you feel, Eaton, and I wish you luck with your assessments - if you get it you will at least have a head start and a chance to stop the big boys getting it all!!
 
Ive looked into it before and it was the paperwork and the many different prices being quoted thats put me off so lets hope it changes and gives smaller firms more of a chance
 
So guys are you happy with the industry as it is, where organisations such as The MCS are taking the focus away from the engineering side of your business and making you become part of the british governments obsession with beurocracy or would you prefer to go back to less beurocracy and more focus on what you have trained to do???

I have just looked at mickw's blog and since I posted on there, there has only been 5 other posters, my upmost thanks to those guys who made the effort, on my original post I have recieved thirteen thanks, so I can only assume that you are in support of the campaign if so I would rather you posted on the blog than gave me your thanks.


The whole point of the campaign is to save your industry and if you guys do not participate you will eventualy loose the right to complain about the state of the industry in the future because you sat back and didnt participate when you had the chance, your chance is now to make a difference please do not let this golden oppertunity to pass you by, so lend your support and let your voices of dissatisfacation be heard.

It is my honest belief that the MCS qms is a current experiment to supposedly improve the industry and as I have said before, you will all pig and moan when the likes of Gas Safe Oftec and Heatas take up this QMS idea.

I remeber when it became mandatory to be corgi registerd, there was no real internet then and all the old guys in the industry bitched and moaned about having to do more trainning and spend money becoming registerd those close to retirement didnt bother and I am talking about really experianced heating guys who would be retiring in the next 10 to 15 years being forced to stop installing boilers and just do cylinder changes and fit bathroom suites and I am talking about the sort of guys who have forgotten more than I have ever learned, overnight because of beurocracy they went from experianced heating engineers to little more than bathroom fitters how humiliating was that and you had guys half their age poorly trained having done 2 week courses trying tell them their jobs

Just had a thought, maybe the MODS can do a poll or tell me how I can set one up to really gauge if there is support for the MCS or not because I feel there is not much real support from it from the installers its aimed at only support from the big industry movers
 
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We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I will say: It is to wage war, by sea, land, and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be. Winston Churchill June 4 1940.
 
ecowarm said:
We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I will say: It is to wage war, by sea, land, and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be. Winston Churchill June 4 1940.
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Praise the lord and pass the ammunition, Frank Loesser

Cheers Eco
 
I won't do any more Winston Churchill Quotes I will just say I take up my task with buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men. At this time I feel entitled to claim the aid of all, and I say, "come then, let us go forward together with our united strength."
 
i with you ecowarm, im with you mate

not sure what your point is but ill follow
 
tbh, if this keeps out the cowboys and improves the skills of the installers and know how of the business case then it is for the better
 
Can we link this post and the others that have 'discussed' the issue with the blog?
 
SimonG said:
Can we link this post and the others that have 'discussed' the issue with the blog?
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That's a really good idea, Simon, but I don't think I can, because you can only read a very limited amount of posts unless you are a member and logged in!

Thanks for your comment, by the way, it was excellent!
 
the blog suggests this forces people to use larger companies as they are the ones more likely to be able to satisfy the mcs scheme. Is that a bad thing?
 
fuzzy said:
the blog suggests this forces people to use larger companies as they are the ones more likely to be able to satisfy the mcs scheme. Is that a bad thing?
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No its not a bad thing if you own a big company, but I dont and it is not cost effective for me to be MCS accredited
 
unguided1 said:
No its not a bad thing if you own a big company, but I dont and it is not cost effective for me to be MCS accredited
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well would it be a bad thing for all medium/large/recognised companies to get the work and install it then register it? they can then ensure standards are high. could always use smaller companies to sub contract too
 
So what your saying Fuzzy is my loyal customers who I have done work for, for many years some of them over 20 years I should tell them to use someone else?
 
fuzzy said:
the blog suggests this forces people to use larger companies as they are the ones more likely to be able to satisfy the mcs scheme. Is that a bad thing?
Click to expand...
Once the Boiler Scrappage scheme was announced, my life went completely mad. In conjunction with boiler manufacturers, I spent a huge amount of time being interviewed for radio etc and our main message was always the same - get more than one quote for the replacement job.

The utility companies had a brilliant marketing campaign - as soon as the scheme was announced, they 'matched' the government's grant with £400 of their own. £800 off your installation sounds good doesn't it? My message to get more than one quote ensured that the householder would get a quote from smaller installers as well.

Why is this relevant? You can read the Guardian report here on prices and who installed what Energy suppliers charged inflated prices in gas boiler scrappage scheme | Money | The Guardian The important facts to come out of this:

1. Utility companies were on average 33% more expensive than independent installers.
2. Only just over 14% of installations were carried out by the utility companies

We got the message over then!

My fear is that if the whole renewable marketplace is predominantly left to the big boys, the figures will be reversed this time round with them getting more than 80% of installations.

Prices to the householder would be miles higher with little competition from smaller guys, take up will be less and, as a consequence, governments renewable targets will NOT be reached.

That's why it would be a bad thing!
 
I am news to this forum, however I am fairly active over on the electricians forum in the renewables area, so please bear with me.

I am fully aware of all the MCS paperwork on the Solar PV side (it is onerous).

So A quick question, as part of the MCS for this area (heatpumps) when did anyone last carry out the detailed SAP calculations for a job , or don't you bother?

Thx, Worcester
 
@ all , this isn't actually off track, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your gripes.
 
Hi Worcester Renewables and welcome to the plumbers forum, I have never done a SAP assesment and I am not trained to do so Niether am I MCS accredited but I do inspections and and MCS sign offs as well as installations.
 
unguided1 said:
So what your saying Fuzzy is my loyal customers who I have done work for, for many years some of them over 20 years I should tell them to use someone else?
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I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways
 
fuzzy said:
I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways
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I've seen the work these so called qualified mcs company's do total rubbish just in it for a fast buck then go bust iv not seen a lot but the ones I've seen my wee girl could do a better job
 
Hi Fuzzy I am not MCS accredited, I am self employed, The QMS does not work with my style of running my business the physical cost of becoming MCS accredited is prohibitve to me along with all the paperwork that I am required to keep.
I currently inspect MCS accredited installers work as well as unacredited installers and DIYers work. I have witnessed shocking work by so called MCS accredited installers to the point where I have been employed by the customers to put the work right.

So yes because I refuse to become MCS accredited I am therefore branded a cowboy, my customers will tell you different and as I have stated before I am still debating with my self if I wish to remain on the Gas Safe register
 
fuzzy said:
I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is ok for unqualified people to do the work.

Competency in design, installation and safety is what is important, not whether the small business has a booking in procedure, logs the conversations with his customer and has quarterly meetings or not!!

So, yes, fuzzy, you are right - it is just the definition of qualified that is arguable and I would argue that the QMS part of MCS is OTT for small business.
 
We need to keep this discussion balanced. You have witnessed poor workmanship from mcs accredited installers who are qualified. I have witnessed poor workmansip from gas safe registered installers who are qualified. Does this suggest that being qualified and registered = poor workmanship?

Does this mean we should employ people who have picked it up as opposed to been trained and asked to complete and join a 'quality assurance' scheme? Or is it simply using an extreem to justify not adhering to the rules? Would we be better if people made their own choice as to 'what works with my style of running a business?" If something doesnt suit an individual does it mean it is wrong?
 
MCS has nothing to do with being qualified. It is a scheme in place to ensure that government funding is being spent on installations and products that have been installed according to MCS guidelines. The main issue is with the paperwork or Quality system that the MCS requires everyone to have. Larger organisations already have these in place, some have quality departments that do nothing but scrutinise processes and update procedures every day. Smaller businesses are being lumped in with these organisations and the difference in capability, paperwork wise, is causing an unfair balance of competitiveness. By restricting government grants to businesses who may not be able to cope with the quality side of things but are more than capable practically it is essentially putting the smaller guy out of competition.
Not being MCS accredited does not make you a cowboy, neither does being MCS accredited prevent you from being one.
 
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No but what it does mean is the system is wrong and needs changing as I think we all know it don't work to suit smaller company's
 
I agree Fuzzy a balanced discussion is extremly important to make people realise that that what is being asked for is not a complete dissalusion of the MCS but the fact that it is more important to look at the engineering side of installations than the paperwork side of it. Also why does there have to be another seperate body covering renewables when their should be just one body covering the whole aspect of an installation. I hate the way our industry has been splintered with all the focus on individual types of appliance forcing companies to specialise or pay out thousands of pounds to different professional bodies This is fine for medium or large companies but is far beyond the reach of the self employed man who may only do one or two of each type of installation per year.

More focus should be spent looking at qualifications and when I say this I am not talking about some 2 day or 2 week trainning course that is all that are designed so that you are trained to pass an exam not to give you the practical knowledge to do your job and is all that is needed for joining these bodies for example MCS require that you have done a trainning course hence you now have double glazing companies advertising and installing solar thermal and PV
 
What is the MCS definition of a competent installer from what i can gather it is someone who has experience in office work & qms systems with little regard given to the actual quality of the installation, I"ve just come across an MCS registered companies website where the two clowns running it have previously been selling phones for carphone warehouse and if you want to be on there list of subcontractors they will watch you do an installation to see if you meet their standards!!! I think i'l be packing it all in soon it's a complete joke and become a double glazing installer probably install more renewables that way.:D
 
yeh i know what you mean, not sure of the answers but the new 2399 C&Gs qual is the way forward it would seem
 
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