Changing the MCS

[MickW]

I can lend you a pair of size tens a lump hammer and a Kango, with a bleeding loveslave for effect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, Mike, but I think I'll make do with my briefing document and a few persuasive words! I might come back for the trade style attack equipment if they don't listen :icon12:

 

[unguided1]

Thanks, Mike, but I think I'll make do with my briefing document and a few persuasive words! I might come back for the trade style attack equipment if they don't listen :icon12:

No worries Mick, are you sure that breifing document will be enough I am sure that me and the guys would be more than happy to assist with some WMC's, (Weapons of Mass Construction)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[unguided1]

Just found this on the Electricians Forum, turns out, they are not very happy either and one of their members TedM has asked question directly from the members to Gideon Richards who apparantly is the interim CEO of the MCS.

So I already know what I will be asking so if you have any questions for him fire away cos he will be getting a phone call for an apointment in the morning,


Here is the thread from the electricians forum Questions for MCS

 

[MickW]

I have just had an interesting 28 minute phone call with Gideon Richards, Chair of MCS steering group, after I criticised him on hearing an interview he gave about MCS accreditation. Needless to say, we did not agree about a few things!!

Credit where credit is due, though, he is coming to see me in the very near future and he is bringing with him the guy who is leading the current consultation on MCS.

I'm looking forward to that

 

[unguided1]

I have just had an interesting 28 minute phone call with Gideon Richards, Chair of MCS steering group, after I criticised him on hearing an interview he gave about MCS accreditation. Needless to say, we did not agree about a few things!!

Credit where credit is due, though, he is coming to see me in the very near future and he is bringing with him the guy who is leading the current consultation on MCS.

I'm looking forward to that

I want to meet that git too

 

[unguided1]

Looks like the message is getting through http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=195094

 

[SimonG]

Looks like the message is getting through Barker admits that the microgeneration certification scheme is under fire

£18,000 per technology? I know it's expensive but?

 

[unguided1]

£18,000 per technology? I know it's expensive but?

What would you expect from a politician they never get all the facts right, but at least they are starting to realise that they have made another complete cockup.

 

[SimonG]

What would you expect from a politician they never get all the facts right, but at least they are starting to realise that they have made another complete cockup.

Aye, true. Should be an interesting 6 to 12 months.

 

[markfxy]

Maybe he mixed it up with the amount he trousers each week from his shares in renewables companies

 

[fuzzy]

we already have those exams unguided, within the original plumbing/heating quals. then there are additional quals for gas, oil, solar, heat pumps etc, so i think the model you suggest is alreay there. i do agree a single registration body would make things so much better

 

[MickW]

Right, I'm off at the crack of dawn to tackle the APHC Sustainability Group!

I'd like to get this lot supporting the campaign!

 

[Gray0689]

Best of luck Mick

 

[CES]

Good luck Mick, hopefully get some good responses.

 

[unguided1]

Good luck mick

 

[MickW]

Thanks lads!

 

[CES]

Would it be worth noting something on the Government's Red Tape challenge website?

Red Tape Challenge - About Red Tape Challenge

 

[ecowarm]

Can this be a sticky ???

It has had more replies and views than the other MCS thread that is a sticky.

Good call CES

 

[mylocalgasman]

DECC published the Microgeneration Strategy today. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...ogeneration/2015-microgeneration-strategy.pdf

In that document, the importance of small business is recognised in Action 25 and the explanation in clause 4.14.

Action 25
Industry bodies to reach out to the small installer community who are potential advocates of microgeneration technologies as part of their everyday business.

4.14 At present, small installer companies may be not be clarifying the case for microgeneration to potential consumers. The trade associations and other industry bodies have an ideal opportunity to work with their respective members to promote microgeneration. SMEs will want clear concise information about what the opportunities of microgeneration mean for them and how they can get involved.

​

Well, they have got this spot on, but most small installers are not even talking microgeneration to potential consumers and they won’t until they feel able to get involved.

I think most of us agree with the sentiments of Action 25, but as it stands, the smaller installer community are not ready to be advocates, but quite the opposite. I believe my proposal to exempt small business from the QMS element, if implemented, will help this part of the strategy succeed.

Apologies if i have come in half way through a thread and this has already been covered, "Who is the driveing force behind the renewable market" , the general public, i dont think so, who on this forum has been inundated with enquiries from customers wanting to pay the extra charge involved in fitting green technolgies. There is not, nor will be any apetite from goverment to fund up-skilling. We are Skint !

 

[MickW]

Would it be worth noting something on the Government's Red Tape challenge website?

Red Tape Challenge - About Red Tape Challenge

Yes, I looked at that a couple of months ago, but it looks like they are inviting comment about specific legislation and I couldn't find anything to do with MCS accreditation there. I've had another look today and still can't find anything relevant. If you, or anyone else, can find a suitable section to place a comment, I'd be very grateful.

I did try to cover this in the closing paragraph of my original blog:

This government talks a lot about the green agenda, encouraging small business, and deregulation. Slimming down MCS to a competence/safety based system for small business will tick all those boxes, with zero downside risk.
​

 

[MickW]

It was an interesting meeting in the House of Lords with the APHC sustainability group.

MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!

I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.

However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.

I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!

Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.

Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!

 

[CES]

Well done for championing the cause Mick. Hopefully we might get some feedback and recognition. As for the guy who sent the text, he obviously doesn't listen, which doesn't really bode well when you are dealing with customers, but that's just my view! What were his reasons just out of interest?.

 

[MickW]

Well done for championing the cause Mick. Hopefully we might get some feedback and recognition. As for the guy who sent the text, he obviously doesn't listen, which doesn't really bode well when you dealing with customers, but thats just my view! What were his reasons just out of interest?.

Oh dear, I was hoping that nobody would ask me that LOL

Truthfully, I tuned out as soon as I heard that he disagreed with exempting from MCS! I was thinking about a diplomatic way of responding so I honestly don't know his reasons!

 

[CES]

Lol, atleast you were awake, I would probably have fell asleep!

 

[unguided1]

It was an interesting meeting in the House of Lords with the APHC sustainability group.

MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!

I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.

However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.

I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!

Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.

Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!

A Massive well done Mick I do not envy you on this huge undertaking and as I said before I am more than willing to help and give any back up you need or I can just be there to get yer back up!!!.

I feel that the magic words that you have put that sums up your meeting, is that they were only there to represent their own organisations and fundamentaly I feel this is the problem with the whole of our industry, we the plumbers are the industry they the organisations are not the installers and the sooner they realise this the sooner we will be able to sort this whole debarcle out as I keep ranting on on there needs to be on scheme in place that represents us the installers not just a splintered group of fat cats only interested in keeping themselves in a job.
I would love to go to one of these meetings and give em a taste of how I feel about these muppets coz I knoe I wouldnt be able to hold my tongue, as indeed Gas Safe is going to find out on Monday the 18/7/11

 

[ecowarm]

Good luck with gas safe mike, lets hope GS don't have any muppets there!!

 

[MickW]

I have added an update to the original post in my blog which will also now be incorporated into the briefing document to be circulated around the industry. The update reads as follows:

UPDATE - 14th July 2011

Following consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, some concerns have been expressed that exempting smaller companies from the QMS elements of MCS could weaken consumer protection, and risk bringing the industry into disrepute. Whilst these concerns are understandable, we think that they are misplaced.

It is important to remember that consumer protection is properly covered by membership of the REAL Assurance Scheme, not by QMS. The REAL requirements are much more clearly written than QMS, and can be easily understood by consumer and installer alike. They cover mis-selling, the provision of technical information, allow for protection of vulnerable consumers and describe general good practice. Critically, they also provide a mechanism for conciliation, rectification and dispute resolution.

QMS tells people how to run their business. BPEC, C&G and other related qualifications teach people how to install systems correctly. REAL sets standards for how customers should be treated. The latter two are far more important than the former, and no-one is arguing that they should be scrapped.

We have not been able to find any critical area in the QMS element which would not be adequately covered for businesses of less than 5 employees either in the REAL Consumer Code, or in the general requirements, or in the technology-specific MIS series of documents. Should other stakeholders identify such a critical omission then it may be necessary to make a minor addition to one of the latter documents.

 

[markfxy]

Nice article Mick, Seems like easy MCS Disagree with this just read this in Renewable energy installer.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”

Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.

 

[unguided1]

Nice article Mick, Seems like easy MCS Disagree with this just read this in Renewable energy installer.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”

Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.

Just like to say thank you for finding that Markfxy, It just goes to show that people like Simon Roberts have no interest in helping small companies go forward in the renewable market unless they are paying extorionate fees for completley irrelevent QMS, They claim to be a voice in the industry but as far as I am concerned they are not the voice of my industry that is heating and plumbing they are the voice of an industry that does not need to exist, Biomass, solar thermal, heatpumps and CHP should be left to the heating engineers, and PV and wind farms could be dealt with by the electricians, why the hell do we need another so called industry creaming money of the backs of the people already trained to do these types of installation

 

[markfxy]

Give it a few years when the cost of solar PV has come down and the massive profits have gone all the double glazing companies and the rest of them that have jumped on the bandwagon will pull out of the renewables market including easy MCS. Then when there's nobody to install other technologies maybe then the government might realise that ignoring the small installer, one man band wasn't such a good idea. just a thought:smug2:

 

[unguided1]

here is someone else saying the same thing Government microgeneration scheme faces shortage of certified engineers | Randstad Construction, Property & Engineering News

 

[unguided1]

this makes an intersting read, admitedly it is very old news in the world of poitics but note the names in the last paragraph Why Whitehall hates solar panels - Telegraph talk about keep it in the family!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[markfxy]

This article makes interesting reading and it shows how the MCS scheme has failed customers Solar industry found guilty of failing to police itself | Energy and Environmental Management (EAEM) Magazine

 

[unguided1]

This article makes interesting reading and it shows how the MCS scheme has failed customers Solar industry found guilty of failing to police itself | Energy and Environmental Management (EAEM) Magazine

Nice find that one it just goes to prove that the customer is not being protected at all by the need for a QMS in my eyes it is a complete and utter pointless exercise

 

[markfxy]

I like the bit where they mention salesmen sent out to do technical assessments (double glazing salesmen) I might be wrong but to price and assess a system shouldn't you be under MCS rules be a competent person, I wonder how many lose their MCS accreditation because of this probably none of the bigger companies but a one man band would be booted out straight away.