Changing the MCS

[unguided1]

So what your saying Fuzzy is my loyal customers who I have done work for, for many years some of them over 20 years I should tell them to use someone else?

 

[MickW]

the blog suggests this forces people to use larger companies as they are the ones more likely to be able to satisfy the mcs scheme. Is that a bad thing?

Once the Boiler Scrappage scheme was announced, my life went completely mad. In conjunction with boiler manufacturers, I spent a huge amount of time being interviewed for radio etc and our main message was always the same - get more than one quote for the replacement job.

The utility companies had a brilliant marketing campaign - as soon as the scheme was announced, they 'matched' the government's grant with £400 of their own. £800 off your installation sounds good doesn't it? My message to get more than one quote ensured that the householder would get a quote from smaller installers as well.

Why is this relevant? You can read the Guardian report here on prices and who installed what Energy suppliers charged inflated prices in gas boiler scrappage scheme | Money | The Guardian The important facts to come out of this:

1. Utility companies were on average 33% more expensive than independent installers.
2. Only just over 14% of installations were carried out by the utility companies

We got the message over then!

My fear is that if the whole renewable marketplace is predominantly left to the big boys, the figures will be reversed this time round with them getting more than 80% of installations.

Prices to the householder would be miles higher with little competition from smaller guys, take up will be less and, as a consequence, governments renewable targets will NOT be reached.

That's why it would be a bad thing!

 

[Worcester]

I am news to this forum, however I am fairly active over on the electricians forum in the renewables area, so please bear with me.

I am fully aware of all the MCS paperwork on the Solar PV side (it is onerous).

So A quick question, as part of the MCS for this area (heatpumps) when did anyone last carry out the detailed SAP calculations for a job , or don't you bother?

Thx, Worcester

 

[Worcester]

@ all , this isn't actually off track, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your gripes.

 

[unguided1]

Hi Worcester Renewables and welcome to the plumbers forum, I have never done a SAP assesment and I am not trained to do so Niether am I MCS accredited but I do inspections and and MCS sign offs as well as installations.

 

[fuzzy]

So what your saying Fuzzy is my loyal customers who I have done work for, for many years some of them over 20 years I should tell them to use someone else?

I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways

 

[Gray0689]

I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways

I've seen the work these so called qualified mcs company's do total rubbish just in it for a fast buck then go bust iv not seen a lot but the ones I've seen my wee girl could do a better job

 

[unguided1]

Hi Fuzzy I am not MCS accredited, I am self employed, The QMS does not work with my style of running my business the physical cost of becoming MCS accredited is prohibitve to me along with all the paperwork that I am required to keep.
I currently inspect MCS accredited installers work as well as unacredited installers and DIYers work. I have witnessed shocking work by so called MCS accredited installers to the point where I have been employed by the customers to put the work right.

So yes because I refuse to become MCS accredited I am therefore branded a cowboy, my customers will tell you different and as I have stated before I am still debating with my self if I wish to remain on the Gas Safe register

 

[MickW]

I wouldnt suggest anyone carries out work they are not experienced and qualified to do. If you have the skills and appropriate quals then whats the issue, not sure I follow your point.


I have seen many threads criticizing non qualified engineers doing work, these schemes are there to protect clients, customers and trusted qualified installers/engineers. They are designed for the right reasons, we cannot have it both ways

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is ok for unqualified people to do the work.

Competency in design, installation and safety is what is important, not whether the small business has a booking in procedure, logs the conversations with his customer and has quarterly meetings or not!!

So, yes, fuzzy, you are right - it is just the definition of qualified that is arguable and I would argue that the QMS part of MCS is OTT for small business.

 

[fuzzy]

We need to keep this discussion balanced. You have witnessed poor workmanship from mcs accredited installers who are qualified. I have witnessed poor workmansip from gas safe registered installers who are qualified. Does this suggest that being qualified and registered = poor workmanship?

Does this mean we should employ people who have picked it up as opposed to been trained and asked to complete and join a 'quality assurance' scheme? Or is it simply using an extreem to justify not adhering to the rules? Would we be better if people made their own choice as to 'what works with my style of running a business?" If something doesnt suit an individual does it mean it is wrong?

 

[CES]

MCS has nothing to do with being qualified. It is a scheme in place to ensure that government funding is being spent on installations and products that have been installed according to MCS guidelines. The main issue is with the paperwork or Quality system that the MCS requires everyone to have. Larger organisations already have these in place, some have quality departments that do nothing but scrutinise processes and update procedures every day. Smaller businesses are being lumped in with these organisations and the difference in capability, paperwork wise, is causing an unfair balance of competitiveness. By restricting government grants to businesses who may not be able to cope with the quality side of things but are more than capable practically it is essentially putting the smaller guy out of competition.
Not being MCS accredited does not make you a cowboy, neither does being MCS accredited prevent you from being one.

 

[Gray0689]

No but what it does mean is the system is wrong and needs changing as I think we all know it don't work to suit smaller company's

 

[unguided1]

I agree Fuzzy a balanced discussion is extremly important to make people realise that that what is being asked for is not a complete dissalusion of the MCS but the fact that it is more important to look at the engineering side of installations than the paperwork side of it. Also why does there have to be another seperate body covering renewables when their should be just one body covering the whole aspect of an installation. I hate the way our industry has been splintered with all the focus on individual types of appliance forcing companies to specialise or pay out thousands of pounds to different professional bodies This is fine for medium or large companies but is far beyond the reach of the self employed man who may only do one or two of each type of installation per year.

More focus should be spent looking at qualifications and when I say this I am not talking about some 2 day or 2 week trainning course that is all that are designed so that you are trained to pass an exam not to give you the practical knowledge to do your job and is all that is needed for joining these bodies for example MCS require that you have done a trainning course hence you now have double glazing companies advertising and installing solar thermal and PV

 

[markfxy]

What is the MCS definition of a competent installer from what i can gather it is someone who has experience in office work & qms systems with little regard given to the actual quality of the installation, I"ve just come across an MCS registered companies website where the two clowns running it have previously been selling phones for carphone warehouse and if you want to be on there list of subcontractors they will watch you do an installation to see if you meet their standards!!! I think i'l be packing it all in soon it's a complete joke and become a double glazing installer probably install more renewables that way.

 

[fuzzy]

yeh i know what you mean, not sure of the answers but the new 2399 C&Gs qual is the way forward it would seem

 

[unguided1]

yeh i know what you mean, not sure of the answers but the new 2399 C&Gs qual is the way forward it would seem

Hi fuzzy I am completly unaware of the new qualifications I just know that the ones I attained 30 years ago are no longer worth the paper they are written on

 

[fuzzy]

2399 is renewable energy quals, solar, gshp. ashp etc etc. It is the new qcf suite and very thourough. It puts installers on the new skills database so clients can check (see my other thread)

Quals completed 30 years ago are very out of date in relation to renewable technology. I agree with supporting engineers in our industry to upskill as this will be to the benfit of all

 

[GQuigley67]

do you know how long the course is and how much it costs fuzzy ?

 

[fuzzy]

if you did all of the course its around 350 hours of learning
i guess most centres will break it up into parts
initial over view and exam - 15 hours prob run 1 day ish with half done on your own away from centre

solar
pv
heat pumps (air and ground)
rainwater and greay water harvesting

all around 70- hours in total

i guess they will split this up too

if done as part of advanced apprenticeship it will be free
if adult upskilling it will range from £150ish - £1,000s???
id hope the government come up with some funding

this is a better course than the short courses designed just for installers

check out my other thread, it has a link

 

[MickW]

DECC published the Microgeneration Strategy today. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...ogeneration/2015-microgeneration-strategy.pdf

In that document, the importance of small business is recognised in Action 25 and the explanation in clause 4.14.

Action 25
Industry bodies to reach out to the small installer community who are potential advocates of microgeneration technologies as part of their everyday business.

4.14 At present, small installer companies may be not be clarifying the case for microgeneration to potential consumers. The trade associations and other industry bodies have an ideal opportunity to work with their respective members to promote microgeneration. SMEs will want clear concise information about what the opportunities of microgeneration mean for them and how they can get involved.

​

Well, they have got this spot on, but most small installers are not even talking microgeneration to potential consumers and they won’t until they feel able to get involved.

I think most of us agree with the sentiments of Action 25, but as it stands, the smaller installer community are not ready to be advocates, but quite the opposite. I believe my proposal to exempt small business from the QMS element, if implemented, will help this part of the strategy succeed.

 

[CES]

I hope this does not mean the industry bodies will use this as a green light to take up MCS as a standard for qualification.

 

[SimonG]

I hope this does not mean the industry bodies will use this as a green light to take up MCS as a standard for qualification.

So I wasn't the only one reading between the lines that they will require everybody to have level 3 training. So would that mean that us older guys pre NVQ would have to splash out to get that as well?

Interesting times, but at least some acknowledgement for the smaller businesses.

 

[CES]

It was more a thought of Gas Safe etc saying we now needed to have a QMS in place in order to be registered.

 

[SimonG]

It was more a thought of Gas Safe etc saying we now needed to have a QMS in place in order to be registered.

Just as well I'm not gas safe, unless they do it for oil!

 

[CES]

Well it would only take one industry body to start it I suppose..

 

[unguided1]

Well having looked through the whole of that document, I suspect that the tosser who wrote it was suffering from verbal diarrhea or it was written by one of those MPs who takes backhanders from the sort of people this sort of garbage will benefit.

 

[MickW]

Well having looked through the whole of that document, I suspect that the tosser who wrote it was suffering from verbal diarrhea or it was written by one of those MPs who takes backhanders from the sort of people this sort of garbage will benefit.

and I thought I was gobby!! :cheesy:

I read the whole document as well :icon9: and a lot of it makes sense, but I think that they'll have their work cut out to convert most of you lot into advocates right now! They could, though, with a small adjustment to MCS for small business!

 

[unguided1]

and I thought I was gobby!! :cheesy:

I read the whole document as well :icon9: and a lot of it makes sense, but I think that they'll have their work cut out to convert most of you lot into advocates right now! They could, though, with a small adjustment to MCS for small business!

Yeah it only needs a small adjustment at that, scrap the whole danmed thing!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MickW]

Yeah it only needs a small adjustment at that, scrap the whole danmed thing!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think we have a hope in hell of getting it scrapped, which is why I want small business to be exempt from the QMS part of it.

 

[unguided1]

I am surprised that more people are not posting on this blog, this is your trade and it is being decided how our trade proceeds by pen pushing beurocrats so come on guys what does it take for you to try and claim your trade back, right now a couple of minutes righting on a blog in the future you may regret not spending the time to object

 

[SimonG]

I am surprised that more people are not posting on this blog, this is your trade and it is being decided how our trade proceeds by pen pushing beurocrats so come on guys what does it take for you to try and claim your trade back, right now a couple of minutes righting on a blog in the future you may regret not spending the time to object

Been on and done it, also trying to spread the word but majority haven't even heard of MCS. Bit of a worry when a couple of these are advertising solar thermal!

 

[unguided1]

Hi SimonG

I know you have and your comments are apreciated and what you have said lays at the core of the argument for having a super regulatory body that encompasses all technologies at the present time the regulatory bodies are only interested in what they are regulating, there is no one out there to regulate the sytems that are installed and having been on the electricians forum to gain some form of support I have found that they have infact embraced the MCS as a good thing because it appears that their industry is much better organised than ours and much less splintered, so when I started a thread bleating on about the MCS, they in fact have no idea what I am moaning about, Where as you speak to many installers in the plumbing trade as you have quite rightly said many plumbers do not know about it or they are not interested because of the physical cost and the QMS. This is definatley not going to help the government reach its targets and our industry is going to be in more of a mess

 

[MickW]

Lee Davies is the new President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering (CIPHE). He has written a blog, which is very supportive of our campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS. Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12

He also talks about the plethora of legislation and micro-regulatory bodies and suggests that one body could replace all these.

Excellent blog all round and a good start for the new president in my opinion.

 

[unguided1]

Sounds like the campaign is getting some real teeth, To be Honest I do not know anything about CIPHE, but I have heard them mentioned.
Now if a body like CIPHE could sort out some sort of registration scheme encompassing all technologies and it cost about the same as Gas Safe each year I would be very interested, especially If it got rid of Gas Safe, Oftec, Heatas and this bleeding MCS.


Oh and by the way I finally opened one of my Gas Safe magazines, dunno what month it was and yup just as I expected a load a tripe saying how wonderfull every one is and a lot of back slapping, a shed load of adverts fer trainning courses, wish I had saved me strength having to rip open the plastic bag

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I am surprised that more people are not posting on this blog, this is your trade and it is being decided how our trade proceeds by pen pushing beurocrats so come on guys what does it take for you to try and claim your trade back, right now a couple of minutes righting on a blog in the future you may regret not spending the time to object

The reason i have not written might be the same as some others who remain silent (so Far)
That is i agree with what is said on the blog and what you say unguided1 but it is complicated
so other than stating that we broadly are in support I am not sure what i can add that would be constructive.
I will post my support there.

For us and most small businesses I think the cost of being involved (including the person -hours it will take) are too high set against how quickly we could recover that investment through actual work.
We are already busy ALL the time doing boiler changes and new bathrooms.

I would like to be involved in promoting and installing these technologies but the upfront costs o us to get involved in this scheme are simply not justifiable.

I think if the govt want to promote new technologies AND manufacturers want to sell their products then the upfront cost should be falling largely between them - ultimately it is always the customer & tax payer who pays.

- while i'm on a moan let me add it is bad enough that we already have the burden of being unpaid tax collectors via VAT, PAYE and subcontractors schemes.... and all the other red tape