Changing the MCS

[CES]

I reckon that they will "tighten" things up to make it even harder for us, typically not understanding where the fault lies.

 

[MickW]

I like the bit where they mention salesmen sent out to do technical assessments (double glazing salesmen) I might be wrong but to price and assess a system shouldn't you be under MCS rules be a competent person, I wonder how many lose their MCS accreditation because of this probably none of the bigger companies but a one man band would be booted out straight away.

Sad isn't it that I think you're probably right! Bugger off you, I absolutely refuse to be depressed! :30:

The campaign is going well and I've got meetings on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday which will help!!

 

[fuzzy]

They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry

 

[CES]

They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry

You are probably correct in your thinking Fuzzy, but no-one could ever admit that as it goes against all competition laws. I find it quite interesting that some of these big firms use smaller businesses to install the technologies on their behalf, effectively by passing the rules of MCS. Who wins out of that? certainly not the customer and then the industry takes a pounding.
Maybe they should remove the clause that lets an MCS accredited company use subcontractors? Atleast that way every installer is responsible for the job. Big firms would be forced to employ their own trained staff, smaller subcontracting firms would have to apply to be MCS accredited and therefore responsible for their installs and to bring them alongside the one man band who at the moment has to provide both the admin AND technical expertise.
I still disagree with the QMS but thats another tangent.

 

[MickW]

I reckon that they will "tighten" things up to make it even harder for us, typically not understanding where the fault lies.

Not if I've got anything to do with it!!

 

[fuzzy]

do you not want the industry to be tightened up?

 

[MickW]

do you not want the industry to be tightened up?

I was replying to CES - I don't want the industry 'tightened up' to exclude decent competent installers and let dodgy bigger firms get away with stuff.

My campaign is nothing to do with letting standards or consumer protection diminish. Have you read the update to my blog?

 

[fuzzy]

I saw your response to 'tightening up' post and based on your comment considered it to mean you dont want the industry to be controlled.

I read all the time plumbers complaining that sole traders doing poor workmanship ruins the reputation of the industry, we cannot then complain about being regulated, we cannot have it both ways.

They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?

 

[SimonG]

They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry

Maybe it's just me, but I've always found the larger or national companies give a much poorer service than the '1 man bands', but being a 1 man band I'm biased.
I'm all for giving my customers a great service and would say 99.9% would agree, you always get the odd one now and again that can never be pleased, and I speak to customers about their options. I can't give them specifics about cost savings, grants etc but to give them an overview of whats available. I also tell them it if they want to seriously investigate renewables to make sure they use an MCS installer and make sure the equipment is MCS accredited, which then prompts the 'why don't you do it?' and the long winded conversation about costs involved etc.
I'm sure I will do it at some point, but not just yet.

 

[SimonG]

They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?

Interesting point, but surely thats what they should be doing enforcing regulation on bad plumbers. I thought thats the point of being Gas Safe, Oftec, G3. If they're not going to enforce the regulations/poor workmanship why be a member?
Why does the renewable sector require a QMS when other parts don't?

 

[markfxy]

Fuzzy where do you get the idea that one man bands give the industry a bad name? I think it's the opposite how many times do bg condemn a perfectly serviceable boiler just to get an install. Bigger firms carry a lot of dead wood that get away with dodgy work on a far bigger scale than any one man band.

 

[CES]

I think the issue about tightening the industry up is at the moment its not a level playing field. Big firms may have the admin side sewn up but still use subbys. Small firms dont have the admin expertise so install for MCS accredited firms.
Who is accountable? If you follow the MCS guidlines its the MCS accredited firm, but they will escape punishment by promising not to use a subcontractor who doesn't produce a good job. The subcontractor isn't MCS so will just move to the next big firm.
Put this into the case of a one man band, who is responsible for both sides, they have to provide a good job or they will lose their MCS accreditation as they will ,in most cases , not use subcontractors. Not only that, a bad job will tarnish any reputation they may have.
As has been said countless times, the industry has its fair share of cowboys but don't necessarily think these cowboys all drive vans, a lot of them drive company cars and work in large company offices. It would be very dangerous for the government to think that the one man band is the one causing the harm to an industry sector that has barely started up.

 

[fuzzy]

Interesting point, but surely thats what they should be doing enforcing regulation on bad plumbers. I thought thats the point of being Gas Safe, Oftec, G3. If they're not going to enforce the regulations/poor workmanship why be a member?
Why does the renewable sector require a QMS when other parts don't?

gas safe is for all plumbers/gas fitters, not just bad ones

 

[fuzzy]

Fuzzy where do you get the idea that one man bands give the industry a bad name? I think it's the opposite how many times do bg condemn a perfectly serviceable boiler just to get an install. Bigger firms carry a lot of dead wood that get away with dodgy work on a far bigger scale than any one man band.

Not all one man bands or small traders but rarely do blaggers, poor plumbers go on to build a large empire!!! many cowboys i have come across move on quickly, regulation/registration etc is there to protect from that.

 

[GQuigley67]

surely the inspections of the installs should catch out the cowboys and the bad workmanship ?

 

[fuzzy]

surely the inspections of the installs should catch out the cowboys and the bad workmanship ?

so the best way of controlling is by allowing bad installations and regulating it after the event?

 

[GQuigley67]

get them to rectify the problems or either bill them for the remedial work which was carried out by another sub-contractor

 

[SimonG]

gas safe is for all plumbers/gas fitters, not just bad ones

But if the regulatory bodies did their jobs then the 'bad' plumbers would be routed out. I know this doesn't happen, should do because that's why we pay our money. So why would MCS be any different?

I agree that the industry should be tightened and the idiots driven out or their tools taken off em, but then again there's people who look forward to world peace. It won't happen. Not until all these organisations actually resppond to all complaints and actively pursue them.

The MCS in its current form is just a trade restriction, make it as expensive as you can, create as many hoops to jump through as you can and then you may be in a position to compete against a double glazing salesman. Yes you need rules and regulations, but surely not ones that are boaed in favour of larger companies or organisations? After all is the large company/organisation going to turn out to a customer at daft o'clock and sort something out?, you'd probably end up waiting 3 days and being told that it will the engineer will turn up sometime between 7 in the morning and 7 at night.

 

[fuzzy]

i dont think its that easy, cowboys are notoriously hard to get back to a job they have finished.

If we want renewables and installers of them to be held in high regard we would find that hard if we allow poor installations and use a reactive measure instead of controlling it at source

 

[fuzzy]

But if the regulatory bodies did their jobs then the 'bad' plumbers would be routed out. I know this doesn't happen, should do because that's why we pay our money. So why would MCS be any different?

I agree that the industry should be tightened and the idiots driven out or their tools taken off em, but then again there's people who look forward to world peace. It won't happen. Not until all these organisations actually resppond to all complaints and actively pursue them.

The MCS in its current form is just a trade restriction, make it as expensive as you can, create as many hoops to jump through as you can and then you may be in a position to compete against a double glazing salesman. Yes you need rules and regulations, but surely not ones that are boaed in favour of larger companies or organisations? After all is the large company/organisation going to turn out to a customer at daft o'clock and sort something out?, you'd probably end up waiting 3 days and being told that it will the engineer will turn up sometime between 7 in the morning and 7 at night.

I doubt a customer would expect you to turn up at daft o'clock to install a solar panel. Regulations and competence schemes are there for control of the industry, it should be put together to ensure safety and quality.

I'm sure your very competent and professional, but unfortunately not all are, therefore we need controls/rules. As I previously said, they cannot just check the cowboys, it either a rule for all or none. Reactive control is a very poor way of helping consumers.

 

[SimonG]

I doubt a customer would expect you to turn up at daft o'clock to install a solar panel. Regulations and competence schemes are there for control of the industry, it should be put together to ensure safety and quality.

I'm sure your very competent and professional, but unfortunately not all are, therefore we need controls/rules. As I previously said, they cannot just check the cowboys, it either a rule for all or none. Reactive control is a very poor way of helping consumers.

Didn't say to install, I said sort something out.

Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist! Surely these cowboys work under the same rules as you and I, but yet nothing is done. The regulatory bodies are not interested in policing the cowboys, just making money from people willing to toe the line.

My OFTEC inspection case in point. The inspector,(self confessed failed engineer, not my words), performed the inspection and went to the far end of a fart, chapter and verse. Good I thought at least my monies being well spent. Now at the end of the inspection I asked what is OFTEC doing about unregistered installers, 'We don't exist to deal with that, we are only here to police it's members'.

 

[fuzzy]

In the old days the qualification was the proof of competence and professionalism. With so many courses, employer courses, fast tracks etc we now need more regulation for control. Just make the quals thorough enough, difficult assessment to assure ourselves that people have met the standard and then there would be less need for retrospective policing. It aint fool proof i know, but as youve pointed out I dont think the systems now are. With so many poorly trained, experienced, qualified tradesman and women i think we are forced to have tighter control

 

[SimonG]

So all this poses the question of how cowboys persist, rules and regulations are obviously no deterrent so it must all be down to cost!, and if it's down to cost then surely the customer has an element of accountability. After all you get nowt in this life for nothing. If a customer is prepared to pay considerably less for something then do they accept it may be far from perfect!

I totally agree with what you are saying, we need rules, regulations and quality in what we do. But having these will not deter the cowboy.

 

[fuzzy]

Didn't say to install, I said sort something out.

Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist! Surely these cowboys work under the same rules as you and I, but yet nothing is done. The regulatory bodies are not interested in policing the cowboys, just making money from people willing to toe the line.

My OFTEC inspection case in point. The inspector,(self confessed failed engineer, not my words), performed the inspection and went to the far end of a fart, chapter and verse. Good I thought at least my monies being well spent. Now at the end of the inspection I asked what is OFTEC doing about unregistered installers, 'We don't exist to deal with that, we are only here to police it's members'.

If OFTEC are flawed imo we should aim to make them better not get rid of all regulatory bodies. There is a reason they exist, that reason remains even if there are issues that need addressing

"Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist!" Do you think we should stop regulating because cowboys exist? There are rules for speeding in a car, but people still do it, do we abolish speed limits? No, we need to tighten up, Im pointing out the contradiction in peoples views and arguments, complain about cowboys and complain about tightening up, we cannot have it both ways

 

[SimonG]

In the old days the qualification was the proof of competence and professionalism. With so many courses, employer courses, fast tracks etc we now need more regulation for control. Just make the quals thorough enough, difficult assessment to assure ourselves that people have met the standard and then there would be less need for retrospective policing. It aint fool proof i know, but as youve pointed out I dont think the systems now are. With so many poorly trained, experienced, qualified tradesman and women i think we are forced to have tighter control

Agreed.

Buyt whilst training centres are £££££ orientated, getting bums on seats by questionable measure and not caring about who passes then things aint going to change.
My two recent experiences of training where my OFTEC 2 1/2 years ago and my G3 in March. The OFTEC assessment was a bit of joke but that just maybe how it looked from my perspective, only three of us on it and very much geared to passing at all costs. But I don't know how much of this was because we all new what we where doing, may have been different if there had been 16 of us and a couple of numpties in the group. I got the impression the guy taking the assessments sussed us out pretty quick. The G3 assessment was a full day and I was back in the van before noon having passed.

 

[SimonG]

If OFTEC are flawed imo we should aim to make them better not get rid of all regulatory bodies. There is a reason they exist, that reason remains even if there are issues that need addressing

"Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist!" Do you think we should stop regulating because cowboys exist? There are rules for speeding in a car, but people still do it, do we abolish speed limits? No, we need to tighten up, Im pointing out the contradiction in peoples views and arguments, complain about cowboys and complain about tightening up, we cannot have it both ways

Interesting discussion this.

I'm not saying we should stop regulating because cowboys exist, I'm saying the regulating does not work.

I can see the contradiction, but I don't believe the tightening up on renewables is the best way of doing it. If we want to tighten up the industry we should start at the beginning as one of your previous posts states. Training, make it more thorough and the assessments to mean something. Not just going through the motions with a pass at the end.

But I still believe you can tighten everything up but you won't do away with the cowboys. It may get tougher for them but they will persist.

 

[CES]

I don't think its an issue of complaining about tightening up, with MCS the rules are there and the cowboys are thriving due to an ill thought out clause where you can be accredited and not be competent to install or you can install and not be accredited. This is even before the one man band companies have embraced this accreditation.
No one is saying we should have rules for the cowboys and different rules for others. The issue is with the rules themselves that allow this situation to develop.
Can I for instance install a gas appliance without being registered as long as I am subcontracted to a company who is? No.
Can I be registered with a registration body without being competent to install? No.
Can I do this with MCS? - short answer yes. as long as I have a list of subcontractors to use,a quality manual in place and a large enough budget in order to register for the accreditation body, REAL and advertising.
Where is the sense in allowing this rule to exist in this sector?

 

[markfxy]

I've got no issues with companies subcontracting work out a faulty heat pump wont kill anyone, Most of the problems with heat pumps are due to undersizing and commisioning or lack of this is where MCS falls down because its not based on the quality of the installation merely that you have followed procedure and complied with the QMS paper trail. This in itself benefits the larger cowboy installation companies which are giving us one man bands a bad name!

 

[MickW]

I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting, fuzzy, but I'm sure we're on the same side!

I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.

1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!

The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12

2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys.

I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more.

I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name.

My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered.

 

[fuzzy]

I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting, fuzzy, but I'm sure we're on the same side!

I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.

1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!I'd vote for a single body

The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12

2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys. They should be tougher

I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more. Mmmm, not sure, I dont profess to know what to tighten and how but i'm sure it could be better

I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name. yes there should be a better way of controlling, maybe a single body would be better and hopefully cheaper? They dont have enough inspectors, we are paying for a service it should be managed better. I would not agree to stopping it because it isnt good enough as some people seem to suggest, just improve it

My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered. im not MCS so cannot say precisely what parts are good and what are not, but i dont like people knocking the regulation of our industry, some type of regulation is required, as ive said before my preference is through qualifications as opposed to registration. For example, we do our ACS then have to register? shouldnt it be automatic? let the quals determine who is competent and have 1 competence scheme with one anual fee, then add the quals to thata [/QUOTE

 

[fuzzy]

blimey, just read the link after posting and it started with single regulation body, i promise i read it afterwards, it appears we do agree on some things lol

 

[CES]

I've got no issues with companies subcontracting work out a faulty heat pump wont kill anyone, Most of the problems with heat pumps are due to undersizing and commisioning or lack of this is where MCS falls down because its not based on the quality of the installation merely that you have followed procedure and complied with the QMS paper trail. This in itself benefits the larger cowboy installation companies which are giving us one man bands a bad name!

That's exactly my point, if no one could subcontract work out then they would have to be trained and deemed competent instead of getting a subcontractor in who doesn't need to be either MCS or even REA listed. Its the QMS that seems to be the issue when it should be about getting MCS companies competent themselves to install, not fill in forms authorising "Joe Bloggs" down the road to install on their behalf.

 

[unguided1]

Just like to say that this might be of interest to some of you guys The Microgeneration Certification Scheme Community

 

[CES]

That's an interesting discussion you started Unguided1. I think Ill be joining that..

 

[eaton]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,