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I would say put exactly what you have said on the blog, I now beleive that the fact that the Elctrical industry has taken to the MCS like a duck to water, means that the powers that be honestly believe that the plumbing industry will follow. The main problem with the plumbing industry is at this moment things are moving faster than anyone realises and the fact is the majority of people in our trade have barely heard of a heatpump let alone seen one, and to be honest I have found customers know more about heatpumps than the installers.

Now the Government are dithering around with indesicion about the RHI for heatpumps because at this moment there are debates going on as to whether heat pumps can really save money,energy efficient and are renewable, Well I reckon that they are, and the biggest problem for heatpumps is misselling and missunderstanding their limitations most important of all the fact that the majority of installers not understanding the best way of using this technology to get the best out of them, so the government have introduced the MCS with a really costly focus on QMS and not on the technology itself and because of this incompitance they are harming our industry by splintering it even further by forcing more companies to specialise instead of allowing us who are trained and understand heating systems to just get on with what we are trained to do.


I am a one man band so picture this say I have a customer who wants a heating system in their house and they want a bivalent system utilising a heat pump, solar thermal, a woodburner of some type and an oil boiler, because I am a one man band and I am gas safe right now I have lost a customer, I am fully capabable and trained to install of the above but because of the physical yearly costs of registrations, I only register the with the one body I am most likely to use, So what does my customer do, use companies that they do not know and trust, do they get a different installer for each technology.


One other thing as well I have a confession to make regarding Mickw's original boiler scrappage scheme when I first saw it I had my doubts and honestly believed Mick was waisting his time, I never signed the pettition, why because I honestly believed he was wasting his time fighting beaurocrocy. when I heard that the boiler scrappage scheme was really going to happen I was shocked and surprised at what he had achieved in what appeared to be a very short time. I am usually the first to bleat and moan when I am not happy and usually the last to do anything about it, well this time its different
 
I'm a Member of the CIPHE and they have this [DLMURL="http://www.ciphe.org.uk/greenplumb/"]GreenPlumb - CIPHE[/DLMURL] a free registration scheme for plumbers (its not free if you're not registered with CIPHE)

This could be used instead of the MCS but as unguided is saying we need ONE body to cover ALL the heating technologies, could CIPHE do this?

I have just finished altering the heating system on an extension for a customer, the builder has installed a wood burning stove which I presumed the customer would have asked me to install. They have not followed the MI on any part of the fitting, 2 young labourers did the fitting, in my opinion it is dangerous and have not fitted a carbon monoxide alarm which is now required. I'm not HETAS registered but would and do install solid fuel appliances. But I do it right.

Why can it not be possible to be registered with one body and be able, if competent to install and register all heating appliances?
 
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I'm a member of CIPHE too Ecowarm, IMHO there are too many different organisations that say we should be members of, most of which are moneypits who don't provide any real value for money. If it came to us having one organisation then I would embrace it like we all should in the industry.
 
Life is so frustrating sometimes!

I sent the briefing paper, calling for exemption from the QMS part of MCS for small business, to my MP asking for his support. He wrote to Greg Barker, the minister of state for DECC, who replied last week. Neither my MP or Greg Barker addressed the point I was making!! Instead, I was pointed to the Microgeneration Strategy document.

I phoned my MPs assistant last week explaining that they had both completely ignored the important point that I am making and demanding to see him so that I can explain the campaign face to face.

Today, I get a phone call from his assistant saying that he will be pleased to meet me - so far so good! He then went on to tell me that his diary secretary will phone me sometime this week to arrange the meeting!!

His diary secretary??? SOMETIME THIS WEEK??? Couldn't the bloody diary secretary have phoned me today???

Ok, rant over - I suppose I am being unreasonable, but it is now nearly a month since I first raised the subject with him..........
 
And we are supposed to entrust the future of our industry to these people? No matter how they dress things up a government department is a slow moving dinosaur, obviously they don't follow the same rigorous quality systems that they have forced upon our industry in order to streamline their own processes!
 
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Just sent a stinger of a mail to my MSP and the prime ministers office directing them to your blog Mick. Ill probably hear back around April next year!
 
Just sent a stinger of a mail to my MSP and the prime ministers office directing them to your blog Mick. Ill probably hear back around April next year!
Hahahah!! Thanks for that, it actually made me laugh out loud!
 
Looks like "head in the sand mentality" avoidance if I can put them off long enough they might go away!
Having just gone through the long drawn out process of MCS and the QMS (which is totally OTT for small businesses),
I become more convinced that it just another instance of them that can do do and them that cant (just watch,and charge us for the privilege!
 
According to somebody called Mark Weston:

"Making MCS a free for all for small installers would destroy the industry over night, flood it with smaller companies who possibly couln’t cope (ie. didnt have a structure for growth in place which MCS creates), possibly were out to make a fast buck and weren’t bothered about customer protection or best practice."
:eek:mg_smile:

Needless to say, I have responded ...
Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
 
Right all you guys who are members of CIPHE go onto the CIPHE forum and have your say there as well as here . The president is singing Micks praises , but unless the membership start expressing their views on there I fear the institute will do nothing but blog.
 
Right all you guys who are members of CIPHE go onto the CIPHE forum and have your say there as well as here . The president is singing Micks praises , but unless the membership start expressing their views on there I fear the institute will do nothing but blog.
What are they saying on the Baxi forum, Toddyplumb? (not allowed on there..grumble..moan...grumble) :)
 
RE: Micks Blog & Mark Weston
I think this guy has been drinking MCS "Kool-aid". The consumer protection that MCS provides?? uh.. I think that will be REA listing nothing to do with MCS QMS. He seems to think that because someone is MCS accredited then the consumer will get higher standards of installation? I reckon Unguided could show him a few "high standard installations".
Its noticeable to see that out of the posts that are on Micks blog, only this individual is against the arguments for it to be reconsidered.
 
How is the Government going to achieve the renewables target set by Europe without getting the small firms involved I know people would rather use someone from a recommendation rather than a large company with a glossy ad.
We should all write to our MP's and state that we will from now only be promoting the use of gas and oil boilers and persuade customers not to use renewables as the standard of installation from MCS registered companies is very poor and massively overpriced, If enough plumbers did this maybe they'd take notice.
 
I have replied to Mark's message on Mick's blog with this,

Some of the MCS certified companies that I have had dealings with are installing Solar Thermal and ASHP's with no previous experience of plumbing, they are a detriment to the industry. And to say small companies would be in it for a fast buck is a joke, the like of "fit the best" double glazing companies aren't! I see they can offer 35% discount in the summer sale, well as a small company I'm sure if I was MCS certified and then added 400%
to my £3000- £4000 for solar thermal I could then have a summer sale!!!!!!!!! Oh and yes they do try to charge £18k for a small domestic solar system!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
What about san izal toilet roll from school, it was more like sanded greaseproof paper.
 
I know all of our MP's are whiter than white and totally honest but just imagine if they decided to invest in renewable energy companies to cream off some of the massive profits being made from solar PV they wouldn't want too many small installation companies undercutting them would they!
Of course it would never happen in this country would it:smilewinkgrin:
 
Well, I just ranted on the CIPHE forum, hopefully I haven't upset anyone! lol
 
CES , so you have , you will be lucky to upset anyone hardley anyone uses it , so come on you CIPHE members go rant.
Mick , the chap at Baxi who instigated the course and had experience of MCS has left the company
 
CES , so you have , you will be lucky to upset anyone hardley anyone uses it , so come on you CIPHE members go rant.
Mick , the chap at Baxi who instigated the course and had experience of MCS has left the company

Where in the CIPHE forum is it?
 
Its in the private members forum, You need to login to the private forum using the password in the members section of the main website.
 
Its in the private members forum, You need to login to the private forum using the password in the members section of the main website.
Arrgghhhh! Another bloody Baxi forum, I suppose - only registered installers allowed!!

I'll go and look!
 
Mick , the chap at Baxi who instigated the course and had experience of MCS has left the company
Wonderful! (Mind you, his experience was with solar pv, which could provide far greater profit margins than solar thermal - different ball game, although that may be changing shortly!)

How are you getting on with their QMS Template?
 
To deal with the MCS and customise your QMS I can recommend the services of www.supermac.biz freelance PA who offers back office support for small businesses made my life a lot easier!
 
To deal with the MCS and customise your QMS I can recommend the services of www.supermac.biz freelance PA who offers back office support for small businesses made my life a lot easier!

Not much point putting that on this thread Flamethrower, were trying to do away with the need for any QMS for small businesses so cmon and join the fight for a fair deal for small independant businesses and put some encouraging words on Mickw's Blog, we hope that in the long run it will save us a fortune and put us on a better footing when pricing against the real cowboys that are big business. With a bit of luck it may also save our industry from being splintered further if the retards who invented the MCS actualy listen to the real people who actualy do the real work in our industry
 
MCS don't want you, the small guy, to have any part of their industry. All the excuses are groundless as they only want to keep the prices high and make a shed load of money. They are part of the Summit Skills quango. These people are the ones who wanted to implement 6129 plumbing in schools for 14 year olds about 5 years ago. They don't check your work they check your paperwork and catch you out on this to fail you. They failed this guy who my teacher knew on an import ticket he submitted of a pellet boiler.
It is changing and you will be able to access it more easily. I will find out more info regarding how and bring it here to you all. At present I don't have exact information. Only bits and I don't wish to confuse anything.
 
how do you propose we eliminate cowboys?

Hi Fuzzy firstly I admit I do not have all the answers and considering the state of our industry niether do the muppets that are supposed to be regulating our industry but I reckon that the whole industry desperatly needs a huge shake up also as we are all agreed that rougue installers are definetly cowboys, why not have a bounty system where every time a cowboy is prosecuted who ever assists with getting them caught gets a reward, more importantly this your industry as well as mine what are your suggestions to improve it
 
MCS don't want you, the small guy, to have any part of their industry. All the excuses are groundless as they only want to keep the prices high and make a shed load of money. They are part of the Summit Skills quango. These people are the ones who wanted to implement 6129 plumbing in schools for 14 year olds about 5 years ago. They don't check your work they check your paperwork and catch you out on this to fail you. They failed this guy who my teacher knew on an import ticket he submitted of a pellet boiler.
It is changing and you will be able to access it more easily. I will find out more info regarding how and bring it here to you all. At present I don't have exact information. Only bits and I don't wish to confuse anything.
I'm at a meeting in the House of Lords next week with APHC sustainability group, which consists of mainly big businesses, but includes other groups like Summit Skills and Zero Carbon Hub, both of whom have input to government. I'm the only person there who is anywhere close to the sharp end of the industry and my only reason for being there is to make sure they don't forget small business.

I will be getting an update on the Green Deal and MCS and I will, of course, be talking about the industry campaign - I just haven't decided yet how best to handle it! I'll keep you all posted about how I get on.
 
how do you propose we eliminate cowboys?

I'll suggest buying some bows and arrows, until I can come up with a much more sensible solution.


To be honest, a CLOSED book set of exams on the basics of heating and ventilating a house, wet plumbing, basic building regulations, water regulations and unvented cylinders and so on. A proviso that no examination can be taken within 4 weeks of attending a course. I find it all too easy to pass an exam when I've read the books that morning. I'd have much more difficulty if there was a time gap if I was new to the industry. If experienced then these basic exams would be quite simple.

Then subsets of exams on various forms of providing heat, i.e. gas, oil, solar, ground source, etc. A separate exam for basic electricity to be covered by plumbers and electricians and then more detailed exams for electricians.

Okay, I know it's more exams but IF THERE WAS ONE SINGLE BODY FOR PLUMBING, HEATING and ELECTRICITY instead of GasSafe, OFTEC, HETAS, MCS, REAL, CIPHE, ELECSA, NICIE, Mrs Jones's Trusted Plumbing and Heating Engineers, etc it would cut costs of registration and would also give customers a single contact point if they had an issue with a tradesman.

To me, all the above will stop those people just setting themselves up as a renewable heat source company and installing systems that don't work properly or are poorly installed. Please note there's nothing about recording phone calls, complaints procedures, etc, etc. It is purely trying to create a better standard of installation. I'm not trying to stop new companies - only wanting them to have sufficient knowledge and good installation techniques to make a good job as opposed to having great salespeople selling the wrong type of system to customers or not sticking to sensible installation standards.

As a separate topic I'd also like to see people like me who are reasonably new to the industry, having to pass a basic exam in building techniques (e.g. where to notch joists, sleeving pipes through walls, preparing walls before tiling, etc, etc). I'm sure most of us have taken an educated guess in the past when confronted with a difficulty and perhaps done jobs where we have since realised that we did something wrong.
 
I'm at a meeting in the House of Lords next week with APHC sustainability group, which consists of mainly big businesses, but includes other groups like Summit Skills and Zero Carbon Hub, both of whom have input to government. I'm the only person there who is anywhere close to the sharp end of the industry and my only reason for being there is to make sure they don't forget small business.

I will be getting an update on the Green Deal and MCS and I will, of course, be talking about the industry campaign - I just haven't decided yet how best to handle it! I'll keep you all posted about how I get on.

I hope you dont miss any of them Mick. I take exception reading on the Summitskills website about how they are "Taking the lead role in putting together part of the action plan focusing on the skills and knowledge that will be required, SummitSkills was able to draw on its bank of expertise gained by working closely day-to-day with employers and trade associations in the plumbing, electrotechnical, heating and ventilating, refrigeration and air conditioning industries. These are the people who will be responsible for installing environmental technologies."
I for one have nothing to do with summit skills. I as a small business owner have never had any dealings whatsoever and no one has ever asked about my views on the industry. Maybe its time the people who make the decisions should take a little bit more care about whom they appoint as trusted advisors.
Most of these folk wouldn't know what a heat pump was if it bit them on the chorus (rhyming slang there).:mad2:

Goes to show just who is being catered for with this MCS. A training provider advising the government? hmm...
 
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I'm at a meeting in the House of Lords next week with APHC sustainability group, which consists of mainly big businesses, but includes other groups like Summit Skills and Zero Carbon Hub, both of whom have input to government. I'm the only person there who is anywhere close to the sharp end of the industry and my only reason for being there is to make sure they don't forget small business.

I will be getting an update on the Green Deal and MCS and I will, of course, be talking about the industry campaign - I just haven't decided yet how best to handle it! I'll keep you all posted about how I get on.

I can lend you a pair of size tens a lump hammer and a Kango, with a bleeding loveslave for effect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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