MCS Accreditation

[EasyMCSLtd]

HI Guys,

You make some valid points, although accreditation costs are at the lowest they are realisticly going to get to, the cost of equipment has a long way to go. The idea is now that the Feed In Tariffs and The Renewable Heat Incentive will drive down equipment prices and mean that you would be looking at comparable costs to boiler replacements as more and more units get installed. With fuel prices on the Up the aim is that consumers will start questioning replacing with a boiler once the technologies are more affordable. If you look at Solar PV since the introduction of the FITTS prices have started to tumble so it wont be long before the heating side follows.

 

[unguided1]

HI Guys,

You make some valid points, although accreditation costs are at the lowest they are realisticly going to get to, the cost of equipment has a long way to go. The idea is now that the Feed In Tariffs and The Renewable Heat Incentive will drive down equipment prices and mean that you would be looking at comparable costs to boiler replacements as more and more units get installed. With fuel prices on the Up the aim is that consumers will start questioning replacing with a boiler once the technologies are more affordable. If you look at Solar PV since the introduction of the FITTS prices have started to tumble so it wont be long before the heating side follows.

As I have stated before all well and good for the big companies but no use for one man bands, Also if its any help to one man bands wanting to get MCS accredited Have a chat with companies that have already gone through the tedious rigmarol of getting MCS accredited and ask how they got their paperwork, you may find that is cheaper than companies offering to do it for you!!!

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

As I have stated before all well and good for the big companies but no use for one man bands, Also if its any help to one man bands wanting to get MCS accredited Have a chat with companies that have already gone through the tedious rigmarol of getting MCS accredited and ask how they got their paperwork, you may find that is cheaper than companies offering to do it for you!!!

Hi Guys,

It is fine to speak to companies already with MCS, please be aware though, MCS Inspecting bodies are coming down hard on people who try and use systems adopted by existing MCS organisations as it should be bespoke to how you operate. Also it isn't very often that an existing MCS company will encourage a competitor to enter the market.

 

[markfxy]

Hi Guys,

It is fine to speak to companies already with MCS, please be aware though, MCS Inspecting bodies are coming down hard on people who try and use systems adopted by existing MCS organisations as it should be bespoke to how you operate. Also it isn't very often that an existing MCS company will encourage a competitor to enter the market.

surely most companies operate in much the same way therefore what works for one will work for all. the paper trail is much the same as bsi 9001 quality control if you use that system you shouldn't have any problems with mcs.

The thing that pi***s me off is you dont need any plumbing qualifications to be registered as an installer for any renewables so how can mcs be a guarantee of a quality installation when the installer might be good at paperwork but not have a clue about installation.

 

[dontknowitall]

surely most companies operate in much the same way therefore what works for one will work for all. the paper trail is much the same as bsi 9001 quality control if you use that system you shouldn't have any problems with mcs.

Must admit I'd not thought about that.

The thing that pi***s me off is you dont need any plumbing qualifications to be registered as an installer for any renewables so how can mcs be a guarantee of a quality installation when the installer might be good at paperwork but not have a clue about installation.

I think this is where much of my confusion over the MCS has been until I read this. I'd assumed that the QMS was a general view of the renewables industry and how each of the products worked and how they could work together and that you had to do this course before you launched into one of the specific areas. (This scheme applies to new OFTEC technicians who've no oil experience.)

I'd no idea it was simply about administration.

 

[SimonG]

Hi Guys,

It is fine to speak to companies already with MCS, please be aware though, MCS Inspecting bodies are coming down hard on people who try and use systems adopted by existing MCS organisations as it should be bespoke to how you operate. Also it isn't very often that an existing MCS company will encourage a competitor to enter the market.

Don't understand your comments re people adopting systems. Surely the services you would offer would come from your own template that you are selling to companies/individuals after fine tuning. Surely the inspecting bodies would also like some sort of commonality to make their jobs easier.
If I remember back to the company I served my time with, when they went down the Quality Assured route it was basically a set of 15 files for each contract. The auditors wanted commanality.

 

[unguided1]

The thing that pi***s me off is you dont need any plumbing qualifications to be registered as an installer for any renewables so how can mcs be a guarantee of a quality installation when the installer might be good at paperwork but not have a clue about installation.

Despite what anyone else says denying it, this is infact completley true

 

[dontknowitall]

Hi dontknowitall,

I think I may have miscommunicated the costs. Upfront cost for you total to achieve MCS Certification including our time designing your quality management system and getting you to MCS Standards £1100-£1200 then your ongoing cost is £400 for each years audit and approx £150 to be a member of REAL.

That is it so say £1200 then £550 a year. Pleas bear in mind if you are going into a new technology you will need to go on a training course for it (again one off payment only)

Those are the costs involved.

If you have a look at the DECC website they are showing commercial users will see a 12% return and it is widely expected that domestic will see higher, this is on top of high savings off very high oil bills.

Thank you for that info. I'm still a little confused though!

So the cost, as far as I can make out, is £1,100 set up of the Quality Management System.

The course for solar thermal is £300.
The course for photovoltaic is £300.

There is a £400 annual registration cost.

So the first year will cost me £2,100 and each subsequent year will cost me £400.

Are these the ONLY costs? Does this price mean that I can LEGALLY sign off work and my customers can benefit from the feed-in-tarriff or whatever government grant systems there are? Do I have to re-train every so many years?

It seems now that the setup costs are £1,200 and ongoing £550 instead of me thinking it was £1,100 and £400. This, though doesn't include the course costs of £300 each (which is where my £2,100 came from). REAL's subscription for 1-6 employees is £220. So total for the first year is now £1,200 plus £400, plus £220, plus £300, plus £300 equalling £2,420. Hopefully that's including VAT because if not then we're talking about £2,904.

The last part of my quote was asking if there are other costs. There's Gassafe for gas, OFTEC for oil and HETAS for solid fuel. These bodies have inspectors to ensure the standards are maintained by the installers.

Who is the renewables industry "policed" by? Is it the local council or someone else? Is it REAL?

Looking on REAL's website there's an audit form of 10 pages of questions. One question (picked at random) is:

Is a record systematically kept of time spent in a consumer’s premises? If this exceeds two hours, is the reason for this recorded and correlated with the record of any requests to cancel the contract?


Is this the same as the MCS QMS? And if so, do we have to do both?

Once again, I'm sorry, but I'm becoming really confused now!!

Finally, are these the ONLY costs? Does this price mean that I can LEGALLY sign off work and my customers can benefit from the feed-in-tarriff or whatever government grant systems there are? Do I have to re-train every so many years?

 

[unguided1]

Thank you for that info. I'm still a little confused though!




It seems now that the setup costs are £1,200 and ongoing £550 instead of me thinking it was £1,100 and £400. This, though doesn't include the course costs of £300 each (which is where my £2,100 came from). REAL's subscription for 1-6 employees is £220. So total for the first year is now £1,200 plus £400, plus £220, plus £300, plus £300 equalling £2,420. Hopefully that's including VAT because if not then we're talking about £2,904.

The last part of my quote was asking if there are other costs. There's Gassafe for gas, OFTEC for oil and HETAS for solid fuel. These bodies have inspectors to ensure the standards are maintained by the installers.

Who is the renewables industry "policed" by? Is it the local council or someone else? Is it REAL?

Looking on REAL's website there's an audit form of 10 pages of questions. One question (picked at random) is:

Is a record systematically kept of time spent in a consumer’s premises? If this exceeds two hours, is the reason for this recorded and correlated with the record of any requests to cancel the contract?


Is this the same as the MCS QMS? And if so, do we have to do both?

Once again, I'm sorry, but I'm becoming really confused now!!

Finally, are these the ONLY costs? Does this price mean that I can LEGALLY sign off work and my customers can benefit from the feed-in-tarriff or whatever government grant systems there are? Do I have to re-train every so many years?

The truth from me is Im damned if i know, but as a self employed pipe fitter!!! I will not be going MCS accredited accredited until there is some sort of grant or proper tax break for sole traders (not that I pay much tax anyway being self unemployed)

 

[unguided1]

Hi Guys,

It is fine to speak to companies already with MCS, please be aware though, MCS Inspecting bodies are coming down hard on people who try and use systems adopted by existing MCS organisations as it should be bespoke to how you operate. Also it isn't very often that an existing MCS company will encourage a competitor to enter the market.

If it should be bespoke to how I operate, does that mean that I can still use my current fileing system of writing on the back of *** packets and leaving them on the dashboard of me van

 

[SimonG]

Might mean a bigger *** packet!

 

[unguided1]

Blimey I already smoke superkings!!!!!!

 

[ecowarm]

You can use the *** packet filing system, but you have to make sure its backed up in triplicate, I think the *** usage will have to go up Mike. Or take on a smoking apprentice

 

[unguided1]

Blimey eco I only smoke after sex and I is already on forty a day, If I have to do it in triplicate it might be cheaper to register MCS accredited anyway and do it properly at this rate!!!!!!!!

 

[ecowarm]

All that sex and ****! how do you have time to eat!

I am from the writting on the back of bit of paper old reciepts anything that comes to hand realy, but it is not up to MCS standard. I know what Im suppost to do if I get an enquiry, I have enquiry forms to fill in, all the customer details inc. post code, email address, time and date of call etc, etc.

The lady that is trying to get me sorted for Mcs certification tears her hair out when i give her a bit of paper from the floor of me van and it says "Bill 01********** heat pump/ solar" but I will get there eventually......

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

Despite what anyone else says denying it, this is infact completley true

Just to clarify this is in fact not true as you have to show competency on the technology you are installing and on a technology like heat pumps this includes qualifications like G3 regs etc.

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

Thank you for that info. I'm still a little confused though!




It seems now that the setup costs are £1,200 and ongoing £550 instead of me thinking it was £1,100 and £400. This, though doesn't include the course costs of £300 each (which is where my £2,100 came from). REAL's subscription for 1-6 employees is £220. So total for the first year is now £1,200 plus £400, plus £220, plus £300, plus £300 equalling £2,420. Hopefully that's including VAT because if not then we're talking about £2,904.

The last part of my quote was asking if there are other costs. There's Gassafe for gas, OFTEC for oil and HETAS for solid fuel. These bodies have inspectors to ensure the standards are maintained by the installers.

Who is the renewables industry "policed" by? Is it the local council or someone else? Is it REAL?

Looking on REAL's website there's an audit form of 10 pages of questions. One question (picked at random) is:

Is a record systematically kept of time spent in a consumer’s premises? If this exceeds two hours, is the reason for this recorded and correlated with the record of any requests to cancel the contract?


Is this the same as the MCS QMS? And if so, do we have to do both?

Once again, I'm sorry, but I'm becoming really confused now!!

Finally, are these the ONLY costs? Does this price mean that I can LEGALLY sign off work and my customers can benefit from the feed-in-tarriff or whatever government grant systems there are? Do I have to re-train every so many years?

Hi Unguided,

The point i was making was that it isn't £1,100 for your QMS it is £495 then you have you assessment fee from someone like CORGI or NICEIC or NAPIT which depending on who you go with is around £550.

In terms of the consumer code REAL are the one for the renewables industry and meeting the regulations of the REAL code is usually covered within your QMS.

Once you have MCS Certification your customers can benefit, you dont need to retrain but your yearly payment is for an annual audit where the assessing body will inspect you each year.

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

Don't understand your comments re people adopting systems. Surely the services you would offer would come from your own template that you are selling to companies/individuals after fine tuning. Surely the inspecting bodies would also like some sort of commonality to make their jobs easier.
If I remember back to the company I served my time with, when they went down the Quality Assured route it was basically a set of 15 files for each contract. The auditors wanted commanality.

The difference between an MCS QMS and ISO9001 QMS is the fact that the system has to be bespoke to the technologies you are installing and how your company operates internally and externally, the assessors want to see that the QMS has been designed around your company, not a set of templates. We see alot of installers who have tried to adopt template systems who end up failing and having to pay for another inspection.

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

surely most companies operate in much the same way therefore what works for one will work for all. the paper trail is much the same as bsi 9001 quality control if you use that system you shouldn't have any problems with mcs.

The thing that pi***s me off is you dont need any plumbing qualifications to be registered as an installer for any renewables so how can mcs be a guarantee of a quality installation when the installer might be good at paperwork but not have a clue about installation.

We also offer support on achieving ISO standards including 9001 and upwards. Please be aware that many organisations and installers try to achieve MCS Certification using an existing or new ISO9001 system which is no where near the standards, requirements or procedures required for MCS and many end up having to pay for another inspection.

 

[SimonG]

So if competent in the technologies why do we need a qms, at great expense. Just smacks of a very good idea as far as the renewables go but then the government thinks how can we get some money back for all that we will have to pay out and hey presto we have this system.

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

The QMS is designed to ensure your company has the structure in place to offer these technologies, install them following the correct regulations and provides protection to you, the consumer and the government. The scheme is designed to show that installers who are on it not only install to a minimum quality but the company itself has minimum standards in place.

 

[SimonG]

The QMS is designed to ensure your company has the structure in place to offer these technologies, install them following the correct regulations and provides protection to you, the consumer and the government. The scheme is designed to show that installers who are on it not only install to a minimum quality but the company itself has minimum standards in place.

I can do the bits in red without MCS, and as far as quality goes "if its not good enough for my house its not good enough for a cust" a qms has nothing to do with an "install". You could do the same thing with a check list:- Are you using upto the minute data, have you notified BC 48 hrs prior to install (unvented element) etc etc.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Warmfront

 

[unguided1]

All that sex and ****! how do you have time to eat!

I am from the writting on the back of bit of paper old reciepts anything that comes to hand realy, but it is not up to MCS standard. I know what Im suppost to do if I get an enquiry, I have enquiry forms to fill in, all the customer details inc. post code, email address, time and date of call etc, etc.

The lady that is trying to get me sorted for Mcs certification tears her hair out when i give her a bit of paper from the floor of me van and it says "Bill 01********** heat pump/ solar" but I will get there eventually......

Hi Eco
to be honest I have done loads of sign offs and when you go onto the MCS website all you have to do is
Page 1
customers name
email address
date of commision
technology type
product
Post code

Page2
is to fill out the customers address
Page 3
is to mark if its a new installation or not
then page 4
Kwh usage
and thats it

In the meantime you have to keep a fileing cabinet of paperwork for every phone call, every quote, every email. I trained as a heating engineer not as a secretary (although I do have nice legs) and I feel that the MCS is completly overboard, As I understand it you have keep all correspondance even if you dont get the job!!!! Yes we all do a certain amount of paperwork but not to this extreme, All I can say is I am making a big fuss about this but just wait until Gas Safe go down this route because I bet it wont be long

 

[unguided1]

Just to clarify this is in fact not true as you have to show competency on the technology you are installing and on a technology like heat pumps this includes qualifications like G3 regs etc.

Technically you are right but as I have stated before when beaurocrats are involved they leave huge gaps, So I maintain that you can get MCS without ever having lifted as much as a plunger to unblock a bog

 

[unguided1]

Just to clarify this is in fact not true as you have to show competency on the technology you are installing and on a technology like heat pumps this includes qualifications like G3 regs etc.

Your clarification is correct but in the world of beaurocrats the reality of the situation is completly different and there are people out there who I wouldnt let loose withn a bog plunger running MCS companies

 

[dontknowitall]

Hi Unguided,

The point i was making was that it isn't £1,100 for your QMS it is £495 then you have you assessment fee from someone like CORGI or NICEIC or NAPIT which depending on who you go with is around £550.

In terms of the consumer code REAL are the one for the renewables industry and meeting the regulations of the REAL code is usually covered within your QMS.

Once you have MCS Certification your customers can benefit, you dont need to retrain but your yearly payment is for an annual audit where the assessing body will inspect you each year.

Thank you for that.

So the maths for the set up is now:

MCS QMS £495
OFTEC Assessment Fee £550 (assuming OFTEC does this scheme too and assuming that's the cost)
Solar Thermal course £300
Photovoltaic course £300
REAL sub £220

TOTAL £1,865
plus vat £373

Setup TOTAL £2,238

On-going/annual costs:

REAL £220
MSC audit £400
OFTEC £150 ??? I can't see this being free!

So, minimum of £924 including vat per year.

Or am I still wrong?

 

[markfxy]

Having G3 or cps card in solar or heat pumps doesn't mean your competent it only proves you've paid for training and an assessment which is impossible to fail
I sat my G3 and BPEC solar with a Fireman Taxi driver and Double glazing salesman they all passed with flying colours are you saying they now qualified to install renewables without any knowledge or experience of plumbing.

 

[unguided1]

dont forget Gemserv want their cut as well

 

[unguided1]

I have been to an Energy Saving Trust Meeting today for MCS accredited installers and this website I was told might be of interest, The National Energy Foundation: "Promoting a better use of energy to counter climate change" Tell me what you think

 

[SimonG]

The "One Stop MCS Course" looks pretty good.

 

[dontknowitall]

Doesn't look at all one-man-band friendly to me. And the cost of the training!!!!

Too much waffle and turned me off.

 

[unguided1]

might even do it meself £325 including lunch, coffee, and a manual, £299 if I book early BONUS and only just down the road too.

 

[dontknowitall]

Coffee costs £325 but the lunch and training is free ... and those front photos. How many plumbers wear suits to training courses?

[Edit] PROPER plumbers.

 

[SimonG]

Like the fact that you will have a template for creating your own QMS. Appreciate your still going to have to put some effort in but looks good. They just need to get one a lot further north!