MCS Accreditation

[CES]

I'm booked on the BPEC heat pump course next month, I was fully intending to go down the MCS route but after reading your history Kev I don't know if Ill bother now. My mate is doing Solar PV and we were clubbing together to get MCS accredited. I was intending to join NAPIT too! but that looks like a non-starter.
Why has the renewables market place been throttled by all the different certification bodies with their hands out? The high costs dont seem to be justified within a relatively new industry sector, if the market is there then surely having lower costs for smaller companies would increase the take up of installers? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[unguided1]

Hi Mike,

We are not an MCS Accredited Installation company as we do not install the MCS Technologies, we train installers such as yourselves and support you through MCS Accreditation. Otherwise you would be being trained by your competition.

Fair point so how about your company leading the the call to lobby the government to fight for the one man band to cut the red tape and make it easier and cheaper for one man bands doing limited installs,

I realise that this might cut your profit margins but then surely its better to have a lot of people who can afford to do it.

 

[markfxy]

I think the manufacturers should offer schemes such as nu-heats umbrella scheme maybe if you do a manufacturers course and get approved installer status they could sort out the MCS side of things which would surely lead to more sales of that brand

 

[CES]

I think the Government has to look very closely as to who is benefiting from this scheme, from where I am it doesn't look like the installer is getting anything, in fact we are being charged in order to help Britain meet its CO2 targets, the consumer is also having to meet a higher installation cost due to small businesses having to pass it on. The manufacturers are paying in order to get their products approved. The only real incentive to get involved with MCS is to open up as a training centre or certification body.
Before I looked at it I usually accepted certification as a cost of doing business, now I see they are the business, they provide nothing and all they appear to be doing is milking our industry.

 

[dontknowitall]

Why do we need schemes to check that we keep customers' names and addresses and mark every single appointment on their record and keep notes on the conversations or whatever these schemes entail? OFTEC doesn't require this detail, nor GasSafe (I suspect).

What the customer wants is to be able to phone their plumber/heating engineer and ask him (and her!) for the various options on renewables. They'll want a fairly good knowledge and opinions on solar thermal, ground source, wind (hot air?), photovoltaics etc. They'll want to know the pros and cons of these and what would probably be the best system(s) for their situation.

They'll want to know the total cost of installing (including VAT) and will appreciate being told about the on-going costs. They'll want information on things like feed-in-tariffs and other government grants.

Finally, they'll want a system that is installed correctly, to the current regulations and one that works and saves them money.

None of these previous three paragraphs applies to keeping details of appointments, who was seen, for how long and all that stuff. If the installer/plumber/heating engineer can't be bothered to keep his customers' telephone numbers and directions on where they live, then that installer is going to run out of customers.

What I want is knowledge on how to install these systems properly, advantages and disadvantages of the different systems, the costs of each type of system, knowledge on repairs and how to identify faults and how to repair and an ID card showing I have these relevant qualifications. I don't need to have someone teach me how to create and maintain a database or how to write letters or how to document loads of meaningless bumph.

I know I continue to gripe about this MCS stuff but please note that this time I'm not on about the money. If I want qualifications and someone to teach me then I have to pay for it. I don't expect this for free. What I don't want someone to teach me and don't want the barrier of keeping a telephone and address book and learning how to write an email. And I especially don't want to pay hard earned money on "learning" this stuff and having it done to the authorities' rules.

 

[markfxy]

There used to be half a dozen estates agents on every street now they're training centers!!

 

[Iocchipinti]

I have heard very recently that there is a proposal to raise the 'amount per install' for an MCS installation from £5 to around £15, what would people's view be on this?

Would it make much difference in the greater scheme of things or would it be seen as another barrier to becoming registered and fitting these technologies?

 

[MickW]

I have been following this thread with a great deal of frustration, because I know that what most of you are saying is true. MCS accreditation is too expensive and too complicated for smaller installers!

Some of you may remember that I'm the guy that started the petition and campaign for the Boiler Scrappage scheme. Once the scheme was announced, I spent an incredible amount of time talking to the media and the main message that I gave to the public then was to make sure they get more than one quote for their boiler change. This was to ensure that the utility companies, with their massive marketing budgets, did not get the lion's share of the work. (Remember that within hours of the scheme being announced, BG & Npower matched the £400 grant with £400 of their own)

The message seems to have hit home! The utility companies were, on average, 30% more expensive than independent installers (60% in some places), BUT of all the boiler replacement jobs, only 17% were fitted by the utility companies and 83% were fitted by independent installers.

My fear is that those pleasant reading figures will be reversed when renewables take off unless something is done to remove the MCS barrier for small installers.

I don't really have any good news for you at the moment, except to say that I am in campaigning mode again!

I am currently working to unite the industry in order to get the message across to the government that they will not reach their renewables target without getting smaller installers on board and to get them on board, MCS MUST be less expensive and less complicated - my own belief is that the QMS side of accreditation should be scrapped entirely and should be competency based only.

I will keep you informed on here as the campaign progresses.

 

[dontknowitall]

Some of us here might be willing to assist in one way or another as many of us want to:

Get started in renewables without massive expense and time consuming admin
Help our customers become more environmentally friendly
Provide a good, safe and workable installation
Keep some of the payment for our wages instead of spending it all in administration
etc, etc, etc

If we can help (just one example would be to write to our MP with a list of facts on how difficult the QMS is and how to phrase the letter) please feel free to shout and/or start a thread where we can set out some arguments.

 

[unguided1]

I have been following this thread with a great deal of frustration, because I know that what most of you are saying is true. MCS accreditation is too expensive and too complicated for smaller installers!

Some of you may remember that I'm the guy that started the petition and campaign for the Boiler Scrappage scheme. Once the scheme was announced, I spent an incredible amount of time talking to the media and the main message that I gave to the public then was to make sure they get more than one quote for their boiler change. This was to ensure that the utility companies, with their massive marketing budgets, did not get the lion's share of the work. (Remember that within hours of the scheme being announced, BG & Npower matched the £400 grant with £400 of their own)

The message seems to have hit home! The utility companies were, on average, 30% more expensive than independent installers (60% in some places), BUT of all the boiler replacement jobs, only 17% were fitted by the utility companies and 83% were fitted by independent installers.

My fear is that those pleasant reading figures will be reversed when renewables take off unless something is done to remove the MCS barrier for small installers.

I don't really have any good news for you at the moment, except to say that I am in campaigning mode again!

I am currently working to unite the industry in order to get the message across to the government that they will not reach their renewables target without getting smaller installers on board and to get them on board, MCS MUST be less expensive and less complicated - my own belief is that the QMS side of accreditation should be scrapped entirely and should be competency based only.

I will keep you informed on here as the campaign progresses.

Hi Mickw

The fact that you have form in executing this type of campaign and also have the contacts as well is extremely encouraging, I would be more than willing to assist you. I can honestly say that I do not envy the task Having tried to deal with government departments and MP,s on other issues before, ( complete bunch of brainless muppets) I am much happier and more comfortable with a lump hammer in me hand than I am with putting a pen to paper so with this in mind I would be more than happy to throw me lump hammer at an MP or two, given half the chance.

I also Like the words you use about uniting the industry and I realise that it can only be done one step at a time but one thing I would like to see that would assist one man bands is some way of merging all technologies under a one off payment system, but as I say one step at a time.
Regards
Mike

 

[kay-jay]

Blimey eco I only smoke after sex and I is already on forty a day!

crikey, perhaps you can register your knob as a renewable heat source!

 

[unguided1]

crikey, perhaps you can register your knob as a renewable heat source!

its how I really light me ****

 

[MickW]

It was good to meet Toddyplumb at the BDR training centre today, where we were discussing the hoops required to be jumped through to fulfil the requirements of the MCS Management system.

It made me even more certain that MCS has been designed for bigger firms and is totally disproportionate for small businesses!!!

 

[Toddyplumb]

Nice to meet you Mick .
I agree it is designed for bigger firms. I am lucky in one respect as I have dealt with similar systems in the past, and it is different/strange/a pain etc.
If the entire plumbing industry was properly regulated / licenced there should be no need for any of this extra crap we have to do and have to repeat every few years.
I would add it was us (a few installers) who initially asked BDR for help with this as we could, like you ,see it as being a problem for the small installer and I appreciate their time in using us as guinea pigs for the course.
I think am going to pusue the MCS (not that I agree with it !) I will keep you all informed of my trials and tribulations.

 

[SimonG]

Hi All,

I am sorry to sound like teachers pet but I cant help but think some of the meaning behind the QMS is being missed in this thread. I was of the same opinion as most in this thread when i first started looking at the QMS requirements but i soon and thank fully understood the requirement when i had my first customer complaint who tried to tell me i had said i would do somthing on the job that i had never quoted nor priced for. I had followed the procedures within my QMS to the letter and could pull out my Quotation and order confirmation along with the T&C's set out in my contract of sale leaving the customer without a leg to stand on and preventing them from holding money back on the job i had completed. I have also started to use sub contractors following the procedures outlined by MCS and i have now a record of the contractors qualifications and when they need to be reviewed to ensure they maintain compliant.

I hold a quaterly meeting (internal review) with my business partner where we get the chance to address any issues and record them to ensure they are rectified resulting in my business operating in a professional and correct manner which my customer deserve with when hadning over the money that these systems cost.

I have to say i am a big fan of my QMS and i think this will stop the "quote on the back of a *** packet " installers from entering the renewable sector, which i am extremely in favor of!

Each to their own but I don't need a QMS to show a customer what I included and excluded in an estimate.

 

[Toddyplumb]

You may not Simon , but then you may not want MCS.
The subcontractor route is one way to go , but then the costs start going up , the contractors price high to cover the cost of the Tax you are deducting , your time doing paperwork goes up (CIS deductions )

 

[SimonG]

Please explain?

My response was to the first paragraph and a customer complaint about what was included in a quote. I can do that without a QMS, I would hope with the anticipated cost and effort to attain MCS it's going to give me more than I can do at the moment without one!

Be interested if you could expand on the sub-contractor route.

Cheers,

Simon.

 

[MickW]

Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

My thoughts on MCS accreditation for smaller businesses:

Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

This article will form the basis for my campaign to present an industry view to government. It is already getting widespread support.

All comments gratefully received.

Mick

 

[CES]

Hi All,

I am sorry to sound like teachers pet but I cant help but think some of the meaning behind the QMS is being missed in this thread. I was of the same opinion as most in this thread when i first started looking at the QMS requirements but i soon and thank fully understood the requirement when i had my first customer complaint who tried to tell me i had said i would do somthing on the job that i had never quoted nor priced for. I had followed the procedures within my QMS to the letter and could pull out my Quotation and order confirmation along with the T&C's set out in my contract of sale leaving the customer without a leg to stand on and preventing them from holding money back on the job i had completed. I have also started to use sub contractors following the procedures outlined by MCS and i have now a record of the contractors qualifications and when they need to be reviewed to ensure they maintain compliant.

I hold a quaterly meeting (internal review) with my business partner where we get the chance to address any issues and record them to ensure they are rectified resulting in my business operating in a professional and correct manner which my customer deserve with when hadning over the money that these systems cost.

I have to say i am a big fan of my QMS and i think this will stop the "quote on the back of a *** packet " installers from entering the renewable sector, which i am extremely in favor of!

Each to their own, I'm in favour of a quality management system too, I just don't agree that the particular quality management system is designed for the industry as a whole. The one-man-band installers (incidentally not all of us estimate on the back of *** packets) would be considerably more out of pocket in adapting these systems unlike the big guns in the industry who already have these departments in place. It seems like it is more a case of those who already have these systems "ringfencing" the market for their own use. One way is to make the MCS less affordable for the little guy, lets face it if it was too easy we would all be doing it, demand would increase and prices would drop. This would possibly spur on the economy and might even make some headway in achieving the CO2 targets that have been set. Wow, What a crazy idea for a Friday eh?

 

[MickW]

I have heard very recently that there is a proposal to raise the 'amount per install' for an MCS installation from £5 to around £15, what would people's view be on this?

Would it make much difference in the greater scheme of things or would it be seen as another barrier to becoming registered and fitting these technologies?

Sorry, I meant to reply earlier - you are right, it is £15 now.

I'm don't think that it will be a significant extra barrier - the whole QMS part of MCS is the barrier...

 

[dontknowitall]

Cracking argument in the blog!

 

[Toddyplumb]

Simon you will need a QMS with a customer complaints procedure and a paper trail from it.
The Subcontractor route : when you pay a subcontractor there is a bit of paperwork to do and you deduct tax on behlf of the revenue and you then pay the revenue on your subcontractors behalf (unless your subcontractor has managed to agree with the revenue payment gross) At worst you will be deducting 30% from their labour as Tax. Subbies know this and put their prices up . You will need to be VAT registered so that you can charge at 5% . You will be better off employing VAT registered subbies as well , for similar reasons

 

[MickW]

Cracking argument in the blog!

What blog?

Can you give us a link to it, please?

 

[dontknowitall]

Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

 

[SimonG]

Well third time lucky, deleted my first two posts before I posted them, beer and politics just don't mix.

Firstly, Electrofy, if you could just clarify are you a plumber/heating engineer? If not what do you do, if you don't mind sharing?

Secondly, could you expand on 'administration'. Mine at the moment consists of estimating, invoicing and bookkeeping, all of which I do by myself as a sole trader.

Thirdly, used many a QMS, dating back to my apprentice days right through to my 'time out' period when I was working for a pharmeceutical company which was quality assured to death. Couldn't take a dump without following procedure. All well and good for injectables, batch traceability and trying your damnedest not to kill people. But taking a product like solar thermal, installing it correctly having been trained and assessed to do so using qms is complete overkill.

Fourthly, setting aside the part that I could go out and 'buy' a qms and 'adopt' as you state (something that has previously been stated by easy mcs, site sponsor, is not the way to do it), is that really something I would want to do when we are still awaiting just what the RHI will do for the domestic market come 2012.

To summarise, it appears, or as you say it works for you, good. The general concensus is that it will drive unnecessary cost towards the 'one man band brigade' and ultimately onto the customer. As the system currently stands I cannot see it working for me, doesn't mean I won't install renewables though, just that I'll do it whatever way I can to avoid MCS involvement and the costs involved with it.

Rant over.

 

[unguided1]

Well I still do not have my MCS accreditation, I am still signing off my MCS installations and I am inspecting other installers installations.
I still say that the MCS is a complete joke and completely irrelevent, the main problem that I am finding is that installers need to be educated in the correct sizing and correct installations of these products, The fact that many of the inspections that I do involve MCS accredited engineers and companies proves that the MCS QMS system is irrelevant as I am constantly looking into problems that are caused by incorrect instalation.
Its all about money and I can assure everyone I will never be MCS accredited as long as the focus is on QMS and not on installation.
A prime example is the fact that if your Gas Safe you only have to look at the gas appliance not the whole system and MCS is the same when there is a problem the first thing that is blamed is the appliance, when I turn up to sort out a problem with an appliance that is not working properly I can guarantee that the majority of the time there is nothing wrong with the appliance, but there is always something wrong with the system and usually they are basic fundamental mistakes that even a first year loveslave properly beaten would never make.
So as more of these regulations keep coming in the more I am being dubbed a cowboy as I refuse to pay to become a member of these organisations. I am also debating as to whether I will be renewing my Gas Safe this year as I am sick and tired of not getting value for money

 

[Toddyplumb]

The only problem I have with MCS is COST. Yet more money for the plumbing heating engineer to find for more hangers on .
QMS no problem as long as it is tailored to our needs

 

[SimonG]

Hi Simon, I am a heating engineer by trade but I also have 17th edition and part P and act as the quality supervisor for a firm who carry MCS for PV by subcontract, but my main business is Heat Pumps and Solar Thermal this is the area I carry MCS in.

With regard to the admin side its just a case of ensuring we follow the procedures we set up from the initial enquiry through to commissioning. Utilising the correct forms and documents etc. it has helped me but sounds like it aint for everyone. It really aint that big a deal you just put pen to paper and make bullet points on each stage of your business / sale process.

- Enquiry comes in
- Site Assessment completed
- Calculations produced
- Quotation
- Order confirmation
etc etc etc
I think I have about thirty procedures, each an A4 page part filled. all you do is elaborate on each stage e.g Enquiry - Enquiry comes in and is recorded on the enquiry form, this is then placed in the new enquiry tray.
Then we had our internal review and asked the question which advertising had shown results, answers was we didn't know cos we were not recording the enquiry source so now we ask where did here about us. This will hopefully save us money as we will only advertise where we are getting results.
On your fourth I am unsure as to your thoughts behind waiting for the RHI to be confirmed in 2012 I have at least 20 installations waiting until for the 1st July to take advantage of the RHI Premium payment. Which I calculate to be a similar to the annual payment on the RHI anyway, but to be honest when my customers see the savings they make on other fuels the RHI is just a bonus.
Finally I would be interested to see what the cost implication people have towards getting MCS mine cost me £550 the £15 per installation, that seems pretty cheap to me!

Cheers Electrofy, appreciate you taking the time to respond and a very interesting response, particularly around the cost side. Theres been many a post on here indicating costings way in excess of what you have paid.
Definitely a lot more food for thought.

 

[MickW]

Just a quick update...

The document I previously posted, calling for QMS exemption for small business, has been adopted without amendment as the briefing document for the campaign by a number of leading players in the industry including manufacturers such as Vaillant, Baxi and Worcester.

It is early days yet, but I am encouraged by the support I am getting to present a united industry front and we are currently arranging meetings with DECC and other officials.

In case you missed it, here is the document again: Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up

 

[CES]

[QUOTE

without the QMS and the details required for business to operate to a high level of quality control the renewable industry will fall flat on its face.[/QUOTE]

I think you may find that when the funding for FIT and the Greendeal or whatever form it will take runs out then MCS may fall flat on its face.
On the funding issue How did you manage to do it for just £550? NAPIT who are providing my Certification for £380 (1 technology), REAL assurance at £204, GEMSERV at £110 all plus VAT. That makes it £832 for my one technology?

 

[MickW]

Without the support of the independent installer, the UK will not reach it's renewable targets and the QMS is a barrier to independent installers.

Large firms have the infrastructure to cope with the QMS, but it is disproportionate for one man bands and other smaller firms. Many thousands of these businesses have been trading successfully for years and are highly qualified & experienced engineers and to suggest that they would contribute to the renewable industry falling flat on it's face is ridiculous and insulting. If it came to a choice between a qualified heating engineer, trained in solar, but without a complaints procedure or meeting log OR an MCS accredited double glazing firm, I know which I and most other members of the public would choose.

I don't intend to get dragged into an argument with you, electrofy - you are just not credible to me! Interesting that you have only just joined - HMM!

 

[eaton]

Glad to hear your earning from it. My total cost was around £1600 that was training at local bpec place and my qms plus napit for heat pump/ solar. Got my assessment on the 20 July so hoping my outlay is as productive

 

[MickW]

Glad to hear your earning from it. My total cost was around £1600 that was training at local bpec place and my qms plus napit for heat pump/ solar. Got my assessment on the 20 July so hoping my outlay is as productive

Good luck!

 

[CES]

I think you may find that when the funding for FIT and the Greendeal or whatever form it will take runs out then MCS may fall flat on its face.
On the funding issue How did you manage to do it for just £550? NAPIT who are providing my Certification for £380 (1 technology), REAL assurance at £204, GEMSERV at £110 all plus VAT. That makes it £832 for my one technology?

Once the funding runs out then yes the scheme may well close but this was not the point I was making.

The REAL Fee is not included in my figures as I was a member of an OFT prior to joining MCS so was just a simple transfer over and my figures were excluding VAT as i am VAT registered so i claimed this back.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for making the funding issue clear.

 

[unguided1]

I find the QMS completely irrelevent when I am inspecting MCS accredited installers and unregisterd installers and DIYers and finding the DIYers and unregistered installers doing a better job than the MCS guys and I will still refuse to become MCS as for my mind it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth and is definately noy value for money for the customer the government or the Installer and I defy anyone to call me a cowboy because I am refusing to be MCS accredited, by the way signed anotherone off today.