Thinking aloud - online boiler survey

[Ray Stafford]

Here's an idea I have been kicking around, and would appreciate some input from you guys.

We see hundreds of "whats the best boiler" threads, not just here, but on FB etc.

We also know that there is no "right" answer, and pretty soon the thread deteriorates to "rip 'em all out and fit a xxxxx". We also get answers based, not on the current model, but on the back-catalogue which although important to maintenance engineers, is of no interest at all to people buying new.

However, we could get a much better answer if we structured the question better.

For example, break it down into categories - "premium", "mid-market" and budget, and name models and manufacturers.

Also break it down into ease of install, reliability, aftercare, price and availability of parts, support from reps etc.

I'm thinking of running such an organised survey, and maybe joint branding it with UKPF if the mods and admin are in agreement? I would host it on Survey Monkey, which has much more sophisticated question structuring that UKPF does, but post the results here. I know that there are other surveys, but I think that installers and householders would put more faith in a thorough survey of professional installers.

To avoid spoofing by manufacturers, we would ask for a GSR number and postcode, and reject responses not confirmed by Gas Safe.

What other factors should we measure? And what brands would you want to see in addition to the following list. Please bear in mind that I am only talking about brands that are currently on sale as new appliances in the UK, so brands like Saunier Duval or Remeha would not be included, despite being very common.

Worcester
Vaillant
Glowworm
Baxi
Potterton
Main
Ideal
Intergas
Viessman
Heatline
Ravenheat
Ariston
Atag
Vokera
Alpha
Keston
Biasi
Ferroli

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

fine by me

 

[dancinplumba]

I am happy to take part Ray

 

[Dotty]

No commercial?

 

[Atouchofgas]

Sounds a good idea, maybe adding the current length of warranty included as standard & if fitted by a trained installer gives you x extra

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

No commercial?

nah,would be like you tube with adverts :tongue3:

 

[townfanjon]

Yep, I am in, good idea.

 

[AMW]

Sounds like a good idea, I'd happily take part

 

[Ray Stafford]

No commercial?

Not at first, but if the concept works then why not extend it into other product areas, like commercial, oil etc?

 

[Rickster123]

Is it all gas safe fitters or just those who work for themselves??

 

[Ray Stafford]

Is it all gas safe fitters or just those who work for themselves??

My initial thinking was any GSR. Is there a reason to consider employment status?

 

[Rickster123]

My initial thinking was any GSR. Is there a reason to consider employment status?

Well I suppose I don't deal with aftercare, price of parts etc. but I probably throw more boilers at the wall each year than most.

 

[Leo21]

Well I suppose I don't deal with aftercare, price of parts etc. but I probably throw more boilers at the wall each year than most.

Do they all land on the brackets?

 

[Rickster123]

Do they all land on the brackets?

Mostly..... Condense will hold it up there...

 

[Dotty]

nah,would be like you tube with adverts :tongue3:

No you dingbat!

Hamworthy, Buderus, Elco et al......

 

[newcastle phill]

I am interested

 

[lame plumber]

would be interesting, like to see some justification of choices, rather than because they are..........

 

[Riley]

Good idea ray I'm in

 

[Masood]

I'm in...

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

I'm more then happy to help where I can

 

[hammers4spanner]

same here would be happy to put my input in Ray

 

[jonnyswamp]

Yep, me too

 

[woodsy]

Yep include me

 

[Nostrum]

Nope

 

[stevetheplumber]

really only breakdown engineers can give a true result if your chucking six a week on the wall you would hope to be getting a 99.9 percent sucess rate. Also with long manufacturers warranties those manufacturers are not going to show the true picture obviously a raven heat with only a 2 year warranty is going to fare badly against a vouge with ten years
only the manufacturers can get the true picture either from the warranty records or spares sold

 

[stevetheplumber]

incidently my local spares retailer thinks vailants keep him in work

 

[hammers4spanner]

incidently my local spares retailer thinks vailants keep him in work

Failing worcesters keep most busy down this way

 

[stevetheplumber]

Failing worcesters keep most busy down this way

maybe its a regional thing depending on the amount of sales in a particular area get a good rep in an area say 10 years ago and now all those boilers are coming onto the radar as they get older

 

[stevetheplumber]

maybe ray has some stats regarding national sales and regional variations

 

[AlexGas]

What other factors should we measure?

How pricey the parts are.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I don't have much by way of regional variation, although traditionally London has been very strong for Vaillant (and previously Saunier Duval) and unsurprisingly you find lots of Pottertons in Warwick, Baxis in Preston etc - clustering around the home factory.

Currently, Worcester have about 30% market share, Ideal are probably 2nd on about 20%, Vaillant just a sniff behind them - perhaps 19%, with BDR group maybe 16% and Glowworm at about 6%. No one else has anything worth mentioning - for all the noise we hear about the lesser brands, they are chickenpoo in terms of numbers. For a lesser brand, 3% market share (50,000 units per year) is the holy grail - but none of them currently have that. I doubt any of them have 2%.

But thats current sales. In terms of the installed base of boilers, the numbers would change a bit - with Baxi and its sub-brands increasing, Ideal decreasing, but the big brands still accounting for 85% + of the installed base.

Obviously in areas with large numbers of private rented properties, you tend to see more cheap "landlord special" boilers. Service engineers will see more of these because a) they break down more often and b) landlords have to have annual inspections. Home owners don't, so the 24kw Biasi will be seen every year, but the WB 42CDi in an affluent household may well never get serviced.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Following the positive response on here, I have formally approached the RGE Gas Safe magazine people to see if they are interested in partnering with us on running the survey.

May as well get them doing something useful.

 

[Riley]

Ha ha well done ray

 

[solutions]

I like the idea. But im not sure how usefull the survey results will be. There are so many variables, biases and differing personal preference which sway individual engineers choices I think it would struggle to provide relevant data on reliability efficiency and life time cost. Most repairs I attend are the result of either poor install standards homeowner neglect / poor system knowledge (the occasional side effect of a poor install or result of moving to a home with a system they don't know or understand) or age. How can the survey be an indication of reliability focused on the current models when half of them came out last week and non have been installed and in regular use long enough to show there weaknesses.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I like the idea. But im not sure how usefull the survey results will be. There are so many variables, biases and differing personal preference which sway individual engineers choices I think it would struggle to provide relevant data on reliability efficiency and life time cost. Most repairs I attend are the result of either poor install standards homeowner neglect / poor system knowledge (the occasional side effect of a poor install or result of moving to a home with a system they don't know or understand) or age. How can the survey be an indication of reliability focused on the current models when half of them came out last week and non have been installed and in regular use long enough to show there weaknesses.

You're right Tim, in that by the time we all know whether a product truly stands the test of time, the manufacturer has long since discontinued.

However, what it can do is to provide a more balanced and structured answer to the question "what boiler do you recommend".

Whether its sensible or not, consumers want to ask that question. Although I agree its far from definitive, I believe that the combined wisdom of 1000 installers is likely to give a better picture than the picture painted by the three installers that you call to quote, or the 15 random contributors who might respond to a thread on this forum.

I also think its useful to see how installers respond when asked about different aspects - ease of installation, quality of back-up, etc. I have mentioned many times that installers consider "ease of installation" to be high up THEIR list of priorities, whereas I suspect that householders don't give a flying flip about it. Teasing out WHY people rate particular brands above others may lead to other paths of enquiry.

Finally, like many surveys, value can be obtained from trends over years more than absolute values. Given a sufficiently large sample to rule out blind chance, then seeing manufacturer A improve their feedback compared to manufacturer B decline would tell a story. For example, if it were not for social media, do you think that Ideal could have tripled their market share in the few years since the Icos/Isar shambles?

So whilst I agree its not the whole story, I don't think its without value. It just has to be seen as a part of the information infrastructure of the industry.