fully qualified plumber in two weeks.

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just the way you wrote that there :p yeah but its the total 4 year they do now, not the 3 year they used to do
 
why can they not be trained on the job and work as a plumbers mate, no responsibity and about 85% of a plumbers wage
 
adult apprentices done 3 year instead of 4, was unfair as i had a guy 5 years older than me in my year but because he was an adult done 3 years, was unfair so i think that's why they changed it....or maybe this was just a scottish thing ?

they just done the 3 years of college and then they were time served
 
fuzzy said:
why can they not be trained on the job and work as a plumbers mate, no responsibity and about 85% of a plumbers wage
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If it's the fast trackers you mean, then this is a good idea and would be even better if part government funded. Otherwise they'd need to have a bit of experience before being paid 85% of the rate.
Apprenticeship-City and Guilds Advanced Craft took me 4 years and it takes about same again to become good at what you do. Every day's a school day as far as I'm concerned and ALL plumbers learn new things every day. It's a mockery to do it in 2 weeks and then claim to be a plumber.
 
fuzzy said:
like i said they still run, i know adults on apprenticeships
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The adult aprenticeship scheme in Scotland was closed in 2008. There may be some still on it but as Gerry said they did 3 years so the last of them will be done this year.

Bathgate no more, Linwood no more, Lochaber.............no ...mo....arrrrrrrrr:D:D:D
 
didnt know it was that different in scotland, they sill run in the mighty england
 
jase158 said:
Don't Know if you read it properly, but Its About 120-130 days in total on the fast track, Where as the college is 144 or so days.

Are you saying that people are only worthy to be a plmber if they start from the bottom up, passing tools, watching how someone else does it, making tea and working your way up?
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ahould they not start at the botttom? you want to start on the same conditions and money as somebody who has qualified and worked their way up?????
 
jase158 said:
I understand that people have done 4 years to become fully qualified, But if plumbers will not take anybody over the age of 19 because of training fees, what are these people suppose to do?
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Try a different career?
 
go to canada you dont start your apprentiship til your 21, Ive got family over there plumbers all their life got big houses swimming pools and bars in their basement :) thats the life but sadly for me they cant understand what I'm saying :p
 
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GQuigley67 said:
go to canada you dont start your apprentiship til your 21, Ive got family over there plumbers all their life got big houses swimming pools and bars in their basement :) thats the life but sadly for me they cant understand what I'm saying :p
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What do they do until they're 21 then?
 
A little update for y'all. You may be pleased to know that HSE is 'reviewing' fast track gas courses & defining a set path with a view to possibly abolishing the route that was sold to me along with redesigning the ACS ie; 1 day per year instead of 1 week per 5 years. As I stated earlier that there was no defined path into the industry & it is possible to jump ahead. This may soon change as Fuzzy said NVQ2 then NVQ3. Got it from the horses' mouth yesterday! (local Gas Safe Inspector). Oh & did you know that Wat1 is being scrapped & will be included with CEN1 from April?(still have to be assessed on it)
 
sounds like someone has seen sense at last! Suggest if anyone hears any updates on this, we share it around and perhaps all pitch in to support it in someway. If enough of the 'trade' shouts loud enough, maybe, just maybe we might get some civil servant to listen!
 
Dormouse said:
A little update for y'all. You may be pleased to know that HSE is 'reviewing' fast track gas courses & defining a set path with a view to possibly abolishing the route that was sold to me along with redesigning the ACS ie; 1 day per year instead of 1 week per 5 years. As I stated earlier that there was no defined path into the industry & it is possible to jump ahead. This may soon change as Fuzzy said NVQ2 then NVQ3. Got it from the horses' mouth yesterday! (local Gas Safe Inspector). Oh & did you know that Wat1 is being scrapped & will be included with CEN1 from April?(still have to be assessed on it)
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good news if it happens,i'm sure the powers that be understand the situation and with the scrapping of tec cert as we no it,can only be good for industry,now all we need now is a big fat incentive to employ an apprentice(if self employed).
 
do you mean that we are going to have to train for ACS every year now instead of 5 years ?
 
Oh at least £200 I should think. ACS is a joke anyway it needs to be tightened up e.g closed book and not allowing people to pretty much give the answers. Last time I went there were three council lads there, didn't have a clue but got through anyway one had to go back the next day I didn't think that was allowed.
 
GQuigley67 said:
do you mean that we are going to have to train for ACS every year now instead of 5 years ?
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i would of thought if yearly it will be updates and new procedures etc,if they get it right at the grass routes,like you can't do a acs course unless you have the experience and the qualification to prove you av the experience ,like the way it's mean't to be, the yearly makes sense to me.with a re-fresher on the basics every five yrs.
 
tackleburger said:
Oh at least £200 I should think. ACS is a joke anyway it needs to be tightened up e.g closed book and not allowing people to pretty much give the answers. Last time I went there were three council lads there, didn't have a clue but got through anyway one had to go back the next day I didn't think that was allowed.
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thats the fault of the centre, not the ACS. dont blame the qual for the cheating centres
 
well they should be regulated then to prevent it happening, and fined heavily if doing so.

So were going to have to sit in a classroom doing gas training every year soon ?
 
GQuigley67 said:
well they should be regulated then to prevent it happening, and fined heavily if doing so.

So were going to have to sit in a classroom doing gas training every year soon ?
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its presumed better to sit a one day assessment every year to ensure your up to standard.

they are regulated internally, but if they are cheats they may cheat this also, and externally once a year full audit, many centres get shut down every year, if they cheat its only a matter of time. best way is to complain, if nobody does its harder for the auditors to pick out the issues
 
plumber in two weeks !! never happens,master plumber 12 weeks total delusion,earn £40k afterwards your dreaming,
 
The 1 day a year thing has been floating around for years!! One of the major changs i saw proposed will probably be allowing some large companies to assess in workplace but even this has probs when type of work is limited and impartiality could be questionable!
 
Every 5 years or 1 year? We won't have a say. It will just be imposed on us.
At the end of the day ACS is a paper pass the buck excersise. It is not designed to fail, (2 attempts then spear the answer out of you by interrogation) if it was who would do the work? The few who could pass closed book would never be able to cope with the work demand and the powers that be know this. So, they put us through this sham every 5 years, not for the benefit of few, but for the many. You could be brain dead and illiterate and still pass.
Once you have "passed" you are then officially the "responsible person" ie the buck stops with you. It is your call but call it wrong and you will pay the price personally.
The main beneficiaries are the industry built up around training. There will never be a need or call for less training, only more.
In house training will happen as the influence of the big players is too great to resist. Generally the likes of BG are far in advance of smaller companies with their in house stuff as it is.
Transco already do this through Advantica and believe me there is no impartiality on that side. It is a lot more in depth and far stricter.
What they do need to look at is on the job experience tied in to the ACS which i have many opinions on but don't know the answer to, but neither do those in charge.
The whole fast track system is flawed in this respect. How much is enough experience? 10, 20, 30 jobs? who can say. Everyone is different. Only the man giving the practical training knows what that person is like. Some may be quick to learn, some may be slow.
This goes back to a proper apprenticeship. Anyone who has had an apprentice under them knows what they are capable of doing without supervision and let them progress accordingly. Some will take to the gas it in a few months, some will take to other things quicker and may take years to be ready.
As an employer and trainer, i personally know when someone is capable of being let loose as would any journeyman.
I (unlike any training establishments AND the ruling bodies) have a conscience. I could never let a lad loose who didn't know what he was doing even if he thought he could. He would be ready when i decided. If hemessed up then i have too, in my responsibility not only to him but to the public.
Perhaps i may be old fashioned in my thinking but i know any apprentice (trainee if you like) i have ever had, knew what he was doing before i let him do it on his own unsupervised.
Our world is changing and not all for the good but we have little influence over it:(
 
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tamz said:
Every 5 years or 1 year? We won't have a say. It will just be imposed on us.
At the end of the day ACS is a paper pass the buck excersise. It is not designed to fail, (2 attempts then spear the answer out of you by interrogation) if it was who would do the work? The few who could pass closed book would never be able to cope with the work demand and the powers that be know this. So, they put us through this sham every 5 years, not for the benefit of few, but for the many. You could be brain dead and illiterate and still pass. Those who fail should be ............well i just deleted that bit..........it wasn't nice..........to them!
Once you have "passed" you are then officially the "responsible person" ie the buck stops with you. It is your call but call it wrong and you will pay the price personally.
The main beneficiaries are the industry built up around training. There will never be a need or call for less training, only more.
In house training will happen as the influence of the big players is too great to resist. Generally the likes of BG are far in advance of smaller companies with their in house stuff as it is.
Transco already do this through Advantica and believe me there is no impartiality on that side. It is a lot more in depth and far stricter.
What they do need to look at is on the job experience tied in to the ACS which i have many opinions on but don't know the answer to, but neither do those in charge.
The whole fast track system is flawed in this respect. How much is enough experience? 10, 20, 30 jobs? who can say. Everyone is different. Only the man giving the practical training knows what that person is like. Some may be quick to learn, some may be slow.
This goes back to a proper apprenticeship. Anyone who has had an apprentice under them knows what they are capable of doing without supervision and let them progress accordingly. Some will take to the gas it in a few months, some will take to other things quicker and may take years to be ready.
As an employer and trainer, i personally know when someone is capable of being let loose as would any journeyman.
I (unlike any training establishments AND the ruling bodies) have a conscience. I could never let a lad loose who didn't know what he was doing even if he thought he could. He would be ready when i decided. If he fkd up then i have too, in my responsibility not only to him but to the public.
Perhaps i may be old fashioned in my thinking but i know any apprentice (trainee if you like) i have ever had, knew what he was doing before i let him do it on his own unsupervised.
Our world is changing and not all for the good but we have little influence over it:(
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I agree totally.

I have come across a fully quallified gas safe installer who wanted £45 p/h and was outraged whin I said £20 was more like it subbing

This person could not solder but when I watched dripped solder onto a fitting , the fitting never reached soldering temp! and then wondered why it leaked?

It had taken this person 7yrs to reach this standard!

Doing a gas fire service forgot to do a spillage test?

This person was in no way suitable to be RGI but was was qualified for everything domestic and LPG but didn't have a clue

In my opinion shouldn't be allowed to fill a gas lighter
 
ecowarm said:
In my opinion shouldn't be allowed to fill a gas lighter
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Met a lot like that Eco and as you say, they think because they have a "qualification" that if we are honest, the dog could pass, they should be on major money! I wish i was on 45 quid an hour with all the guys i have working with me but the reality is i'm £1.32 short :D (never counted it week to week).
There needs to be a reality check here. Sure you have a responsibility but the main responsibility falls to the employer. You personally mess up but if you are employed the buck will stop with your employer, not you. Some i have seen i wouldn't give minimum wage. They are useless! On ther other hand i have a guy on £18/hr but he does what he does very well.
 
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i agree most time tamz but im not sure this time. most centres are honest, most people have a conscience, most people wouldnt mind doing their acs every year or every 5. the yearly thing is to stop it taking so long, one day a year, every year.
I am sick of hearing the blame be put on the qual, the quals fine, its a good qual and certainly tighter than many other training schemes. what else can they do? they have a rigorous assessment and a body designed to be a policing authority, tell me what else can be done, and be sensible please. to blame the qual for some bad centres, what next, ban all cars because some people speed, its not the person ts the car at fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
i dont think the acs is a sham, centres may be a sham tamz, not the qual

i agree with fast track though, learning a trade takes at least 4 years and just to be a new plumber, not an experienced one. i come out of my time after 4 years and then started to learn wwhen i was out on my own. they used to say you do your most learning between 4-8 years and in my expereince thats right. fast track dont make sense, it would for a flag layer or concreter or soemthing, not gas or plumbing. absolute nonesence. prob is you and others seem to be blaming the authorities, alot of the time their hands are tied, they do their best and design quals with good intentions but people find a way round, loop holes, greedy people owning centres with no idea of plumbing at all just want money, they make promisises and move onto the next big thing after its all passed over, computers, IT, plumb what next?
as i said dont blame the car for people speeding, blame those at fault, not the qual
there are many excellent centres, when all this passes over do you think private centres will remain? colleges will
 
Just a thought. If someone can potentially kill or maim someone by qualifying as a plumber, electrician or gas fitter in only one week, does this mean that I can become a surgeon in a week and carry out surgical procedures on the general public?
 
I'm all too aware of the reputation of fast trackers (and I'm one too) especially on this forum. In fairness though, as long as you treat the course like a driving test (it's only when you pass that you really learn how to drive) you can only pick up proper experience and diagnostic skills when you're out trying to earn a living. It's not the job of fast track centres to give you all the knowledge you might require.

The role they do fill though is in teaching you some of the basics (e.g. cold water pipes below hot water, decent soldering skills, awareness of where to cut through joists, etc. Taking the last point it's potentially quite dangerous to cut and notch joists without real knowledge. So while fast track courses do not give you everything they do at least give the basics and make you aware of the pitfalls.

The best way of learning though is through an apprenticeship. But when you're 30+ no one is interested in taking you on as an apprentice and if you want a career change (because you've run out of work as your sewing machine repair workshop gets no more work) fast tracking is the only option to you.
 
dontknowitall said:
I'm all too aware of the reputation of fast trackers (and I'm one too) especially on this forum. In fairness though, as long as you treat the course like a driving test (it's only when you pass that you really learn how to drive) you can only pick up proper experience and diagnostic skills when you're out trying to earn a living. It's not the job of fast track centres to give you all the knowledge you might require.

The role they do fill though is in teaching you some of the basics (e.g. cold water pipes below hot water, decent soldering skills, awareness of where to cut through joists, etc. Taking the last point it's potentially quite dangerous to cut and notch joists without real knowledge. So while fast track courses do not give you everything they do at least give the basics and make you aware of the pitfalls.

The best way of learning though is through an apprenticeship. But when you're 30+ no one is interested in taking you on as an apprentice and if you want a career change (because you've run out of work as your sewing machine repair workshop gets no more work) fast tracking is the only option to you.
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Well said mate
I belive that most fast fast trackers may not be very good at the job but some are just as good and somtimes better than apprentice trained I think it's how good the firm that teaches you is and the men or woman (lol politiclly correct) you learn from
 
I'm not saying the centres are dishonest (but some are certainly bending the rules) or that we shouldn't have to do retraining but the ACS stuff is not set up to make sure you can actually do the job but to provide you with the knowledge of the regulations that have to be applied. There are many who come out ACS centres having passed, that you would as Eco said, not allow to fill a gas lighter. Now you are not going to tell me the trainers don't know this too but as they have passed the test, their hands are tied.
If they make it an annual thing then it will surely only cover any changes to the regs. Do you think it would be better to only learn what has changed or run through the lot again?
I think it is better the way it is where at least they may hopefully learn something but it is still not ideal.
 
tamz said:
I'm not saying the centres are dishonest (but some are certainly bending the rules) or that we shouldn't have to do retraining but the ACS stuff is not set up to make sure you can actually do the job but to provide you with the knowledge of the regulations that have to be applied. There are many who come out ACS centres having passed, that you would as Eco said, not allow to fill a gas lighter. Now you are not going to tell me the trainers don't know this too but as they have passed the test, their hands are tied.
If they make it an annual thing then it will surely only cover any changes to the regs. Do you think it would be better to only learn what has changed or run through the lot again?
I think it is better the way it is where at least they may hopefully learn something but it is still not ideal.
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My point exactly though tamz, the ACS isnt designed to train you as a gas fitter, so dont blame it for not training people. It is there to ensure your work safe. Its not deemed safe to let somebody pass their gas C&G and then 50 years later still be working without ever having to prove their regulations/safety knowledge or update their knowledge. I pilot or similar would be expected to have safety checks/knowledge updates periodically.

People think that acs is a qual, its not much more than a safety license needed every 5 but maybe soon, year. Centres misuse it as a qual. the thing with the categories is top people doing it without relevant evperience or quals, not to stop people getting into the industry but because it isnt a qual for newbies. its like taking your advanced driving test without passing your test or driving in the first place. Stop using it for newbies, the qual is fine, leave it be, it is what it is, dont misuse it then blame the qual, blame the centres and people who abuse it
 
agree with lots of you, but fuzzy is right, acs is fine, but a minority of centres (just like everything else in life) are passing people who maybe they shouldn't! Lets not forget though, everyone registering on gs gets a personal visit/inspection from local inspector and is tested again.
One other point, most of you' like me are....plumbers, not 'gas engineers'. Gas engineers have done a 4 year apprenticeship with bg or similar and they are 'gas engineers', most on here are 'plumbers' with some knowledge of gas. Lets not forget, it's the gas engineers/companies/organisations that 'set-up' the acs, update the acs and set the criteria for us to pass.
Also, gs have been emailing all reg'd gas persons regarding 'input', feedback' and running workshops around the country for your views! Like the vote, if you don't use it don't winge later!!!!!!!
 
another good point, gas engineer or plumber who does gas, alot differnt in my experience, horses for courses. if it wernt for boilers most plumbers wouldnt do acs
 
I mainly do bathrooms and wetrooms and rarely do boilers, but I did my acs. Would think twice about doing it again if I had to do it every year.
 
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