Changing the MCS

[markfxy]

Fuzzy where do you get the idea that one man bands give the industry a bad name? I think it's the opposite how many times do bg condemn a perfectly serviceable boiler just to get an install. Bigger firms carry a lot of dead wood that get away with dodgy work on a far bigger scale than any one man band.

 

[CES]

I think the issue about tightening the industry up is at the moment its not a level playing field. Big firms may have the admin side sewn up but still use subbys. Small firms dont have the admin expertise so install for MCS accredited firms.
Who is accountable? If you follow the MCS guidlines its the MCS accredited firm, but they will escape punishment by promising not to use a subcontractor who doesn't produce a good job. The subcontractor isn't MCS so will just move to the next big firm.
Put this into the case of a one man band, who is responsible for both sides, they have to provide a good job or they will lose their MCS accreditation as they will ,in most cases , not use subcontractors. Not only that, a bad job will tarnish any reputation they may have.
As has been said countless times, the industry has its fair share of cowboys but don't necessarily think these cowboys all drive vans, a lot of them drive company cars and work in large company offices. It would be very dangerous for the government to think that the one man band is the one causing the harm to an industry sector that has barely started up.

 

[fuzzy]

Interesting point, but surely thats what they should be doing enforcing regulation on bad plumbers. I thought thats the point of being Gas Safe, Oftec, G3. If they're not going to enforce the regulations/poor workmanship why be a member?
Why does the renewable sector require a QMS when other parts don't?

gas safe is for all plumbers/gas fitters, not just bad ones

 

[fuzzy]

Fuzzy where do you get the idea that one man bands give the industry a bad name? I think it's the opposite how many times do bg condemn a perfectly serviceable boiler just to get an install. Bigger firms carry a lot of dead wood that get away with dodgy work on a far bigger scale than any one man band.

Not all one man bands or small traders but rarely do blaggers, poor plumbers go on to build a large empire!!! many cowboys i have come across move on quickly, regulation/registration etc is there to protect from that.

 

[GQuigley67]

surely the inspections of the installs should catch out the cowboys and the bad workmanship ?

 

[fuzzy]

surely the inspections of the installs should catch out the cowboys and the bad workmanship ?

so the best way of controlling is by allowing bad installations and regulating it after the event?

 

[GQuigley67]

get them to rectify the problems or either bill them for the remedial work which was carried out by another sub-contractor

 

[SimonG]

gas safe is for all plumbers/gas fitters, not just bad ones

But if the regulatory bodies did their jobs then the 'bad' plumbers would be routed out. I know this doesn't happen, should do because that's why we pay our money. So why would MCS be any different?

I agree that the industry should be tightened and the idiots driven out or their tools taken off em, but then again there's people who look forward to world peace. It won't happen. Not until all these organisations actually resppond to all complaints and actively pursue them.

The MCS in its current form is just a trade restriction, make it as expensive as you can, create as many hoops to jump through as you can and then you may be in a position to compete against a double glazing salesman. Yes you need rules and regulations, but surely not ones that are boaed in favour of larger companies or organisations? After all is the large company/organisation going to turn out to a customer at daft o'clock and sort something out?, you'd probably end up waiting 3 days and being told that it will the engineer will turn up sometime between 7 in the morning and 7 at night.

 

[fuzzy]

i dont think its that easy, cowboys are notoriously hard to get back to a job they have finished.

If we want renewables and installers of them to be held in high regard we would find that hard if we allow poor installations and use a reactive measure instead of controlling it at source

 

[fuzzy]

But if the regulatory bodies did their jobs then the 'bad' plumbers would be routed out. I know this doesn't happen, should do because that's why we pay our money. So why would MCS be any different?

I agree that the industry should be tightened and the idiots driven out or their tools taken off em, but then again there's people who look forward to world peace. It won't happen. Not until all these organisations actually resppond to all complaints and actively pursue them.

The MCS in its current form is just a trade restriction, make it as expensive as you can, create as many hoops to jump through as you can and then you may be in a position to compete against a double glazing salesman. Yes you need rules and regulations, but surely not ones that are boaed in favour of larger companies or organisations? After all is the large company/organisation going to turn out to a customer at daft o'clock and sort something out?, you'd probably end up waiting 3 days and being told that it will the engineer will turn up sometime between 7 in the morning and 7 at night.

I doubt a customer would expect you to turn up at daft o'clock to install a solar panel. Regulations and competence schemes are there for control of the industry, it should be put together to ensure safety and quality.

I'm sure your very competent and professional, but unfortunately not all are, therefore we need controls/rules. As I previously said, they cannot just check the cowboys, it either a rule for all or none. Reactive control is a very poor way of helping consumers.

 

[SimonG]

I doubt a customer would expect you to turn up at daft o'clock to install a solar panel. Regulations and competence schemes are there for control of the industry, it should be put together to ensure safety and quality.

I'm sure your very competent and professional, but unfortunately not all are, therefore we need controls/rules. As I previously said, they cannot just check the cowboys, it either a rule for all or none. Reactive control is a very poor way of helping consumers.

Didn't say to install, I said sort something out.

Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist! Surely these cowboys work under the same rules as you and I, but yet nothing is done. The regulatory bodies are not interested in policing the cowboys, just making money from people willing to toe the line.

My OFTEC inspection case in point. The inspector,(self confessed failed engineer, not my words), performed the inspection and went to the far end of a fart, chapter and verse. Good I thought at least my monies being well spent. Now at the end of the inspection I asked what is OFTEC doing about unregistered installers, 'We don't exist to deal with that, we are only here to police it's members'.

 

[fuzzy]

In the old days the qualification was the proof of competence and professionalism. With so many courses, employer courses, fast tracks etc we now need more regulation for control. Just make the quals thorough enough, difficult assessment to assure ourselves that people have met the standard and then there would be less need for retrospective policing. It aint fool proof i know, but as youve pointed out I dont think the systems now are. With so many poorly trained, experienced, qualified tradesman and women i think we are forced to have tighter control

 

[SimonG]

So all this poses the question of how cowboys persist, rules and regulations are obviously no deterrent so it must all be down to cost!, and if it's down to cost then surely the customer has an element of accountability. After all you get nowt in this life for nothing. If a customer is prepared to pay considerably less for something then do they accept it may be far from perfect!

I totally agree with what you are saying, we need rules, regulations and quality in what we do. But having these will not deter the cowboy.

 

[fuzzy]

Didn't say to install, I said sort something out.

Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist! Surely these cowboys work under the same rules as you and I, but yet nothing is done. The regulatory bodies are not interested in policing the cowboys, just making money from people willing to toe the line.

My OFTEC inspection case in point. The inspector,(self confessed failed engineer, not my words), performed the inspection and went to the far end of a fart, chapter and verse. Good I thought at least my monies being well spent. Now at the end of the inspection I asked what is OFTEC doing about unregistered installers, 'We don't exist to deal with that, we are only here to police it's members'.

If OFTEC are flawed imo we should aim to make them better not get rid of all regulatory bodies. There is a reason they exist, that reason remains even if there are issues that need addressing

"Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist!" Do you think we should stop regulating because cowboys exist? There are rules for speeding in a car, but people still do it, do we abolish speed limits? No, we need to tighten up, Im pointing out the contradiction in peoples views and arguments, complain about cowboys and complain about tightening up, we cannot have it both ways

 

[SimonG]

In the old days the qualification was the proof of competence and professionalism. With so many courses, employer courses, fast tracks etc we now need more regulation for control. Just make the quals thorough enough, difficult assessment to assure ourselves that people have met the standard and then there would be less need for retrospective policing. It aint fool proof i know, but as youve pointed out I dont think the systems now are. With so many poorly trained, experienced, qualified tradesman and women i think we are forced to have tighter control

Agreed.

Buyt whilst training centres are £££££ orientated, getting bums on seats by questionable measure and not caring about who passes then things aint going to change.
My two recent experiences of training where my OFTEC 2 1/2 years ago and my G3 in March. The OFTEC assessment was a bit of joke but that just maybe how it looked from my perspective, only three of us on it and very much geared to passing at all costs. But I don't know how much of this was because we all new what we where doing, may have been different if there had been 16 of us and a couple of numpties in the group. I got the impression the guy taking the assessments sussed us out pretty quick. The G3 assessment was a full day and I was back in the van before noon having passed.

 

[SimonG]

If OFTEC are flawed imo we should aim to make them better not get rid of all regulatory bodies. There is a reason they exist, that reason remains even if there are issues that need addressing

"Yes rules and regs are in place currently for plumbing and heating and have done for years, but cowboys persist!" Do you think we should stop regulating because cowboys exist? There are rules for speeding in a car, but people still do it, do we abolish speed limits? No, we need to tighten up, Im pointing out the contradiction in peoples views and arguments, complain about cowboys and complain about tightening up, we cannot have it both ways

Interesting discussion this.

I'm not saying we should stop regulating because cowboys exist, I'm saying the regulating does not work.

I can see the contradiction, but I don't believe the tightening up on renewables is the best way of doing it. If we want to tighten up the industry we should start at the beginning as one of your previous posts states. Training, make it more thorough and the assessments to mean something. Not just going through the motions with a pass at the end.

But I still believe you can tighten everything up but you won't do away with the cowboys. It may get tougher for them but they will persist.

 

[CES]

I don't think its an issue of complaining about tightening up, with MCS the rules are there and the cowboys are thriving due to an ill thought out clause where you can be accredited and not be competent to install or you can install and not be accredited. This is even before the one man band companies have embraced this accreditation.
No one is saying we should have rules for the cowboys and different rules for others. The issue is with the rules themselves that allow this situation to develop.
Can I for instance install a gas appliance without being registered as long as I am subcontracted to a company who is? No.
Can I be registered with a registration body without being competent to install? No.
Can I do this with MCS? - short answer yes. as long as I have a list of subcontractors to use,a quality manual in place and a large enough budget in order to register for the accreditation body, REAL and advertising.
Where is the sense in allowing this rule to exist in this sector?

 

[markfxy]

I've got no issues with companies subcontracting work out a faulty heat pump wont kill anyone, Most of the problems with heat pumps are due to undersizing and commisioning or lack of this is where MCS falls down because its not based on the quality of the installation merely that you have followed procedure and complied with the QMS paper trail. This in itself benefits the larger cowboy installation companies which are giving us one man bands a bad name!

 

[MickW]

I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting, fuzzy, but I'm sure we're on the same side!

I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.

1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!

The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12

2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys.

I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more.

I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name.

My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered.

 

[fuzzy]

I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting, fuzzy, but I'm sure we're on the same side!

I'm not an installer, so I am not too familiar with all the registration bodies, but I do know that there a couple of real problems which trouble many of my customers, the vast majority of which are small business.

1. The number of different bodies for different areas of the same industry that they have to train or register with, at considerable cost. Gas Safe, Oftec, MCS, BPEC etc etc I'm sure most of you could add loads to my list!I'd vote for a single body

The new President of CIPHE touched on this on his blog and it seems to make sense to me! Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12

2. The lack of enforcement and punishment to offending non-registered people. It incenses me to read that some non-registered tw4t has been fined £3,000 for installing a gas boiler (badly & probably dangerously, of course) God knows how you lot feel when they are fraudulently taking business from you competent guys. They should be tougher

I don't feel that further tightening of regulations will make a lot of difference, save make more people do work illegally because proper competent installers either can't afford or can't be bothered any more. Mmmm, not sure, I dont profess to know what to tighten and how but i'm sure it could be better

I like your speeding analogy! The law is there and you take a risk if you speed. If you're caught you face a fine and a possible ban and if you do it again you face a stretch in prison. Something similar for morons who risk peoples lives by illegally installing products that they are not qualified to install, with increasingly severe punishment, would go a long way to ridding this industry of the cowboys who give it a bad name. yes there should be a better way of controlling, maybe a single body would be better and hopefully cheaper? They dont have enough inspectors, we are paying for a service it should be managed better. I would not agree to stopping it because it isnt good enough as some people seem to suggest, just improve it

My campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS will NOT erode consumer protection, nor will it make it easier for people who are not competent to become registered. im not MCS so cannot say precisely what parts are good and what are not, but i dont like people knocking the regulation of our industry, some type of regulation is required, as ive said before my preference is through qualifications as opposed to registration. For example, we do our ACS then have to register? shouldnt it be automatic? let the quals determine who is competent and have 1 competence scheme with one anual fee, then add the quals to thata [/QUOTE

 

[fuzzy]

blimey, just read the link after posting and it started with single regulation body, i promise i read it afterwards, it appears we do agree on some things lol

 

[CES]

I've got no issues with companies subcontracting work out a faulty heat pump wont kill anyone, Most of the problems with heat pumps are due to undersizing and commisioning or lack of this is where MCS falls down because its not based on the quality of the installation merely that you have followed procedure and complied with the QMS paper trail. This in itself benefits the larger cowboy installation companies which are giving us one man bands a bad name!

That's exactly my point, if no one could subcontract work out then they would have to be trained and deemed competent instead of getting a subcontractor in who doesn't need to be either MCS or even REA listed. Its the QMS that seems to be the issue when it should be about getting MCS companies competent themselves to install, not fill in forms authorising "Joe Bloggs" down the road to install on their behalf.

 

[unguided1]

Just like to say that this might be of interest to some of you guys The Microgeneration Certification Scheme Community

 

[CES]

That's an interesting discussion you started Unguided1. I think Ill be joining that..

 

[eaton]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

 

[dontknowitall]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

This doesn't surprise me. So many talk the talk these days but not many walk the walk. I sometimes wonder if any of these regulation bodies actually know what work is involved when it comes to the nitty gritty of installing major items (e.g. boilers, consumer units, hot water cylinders, etc). It's so easy to sit behind a desk and dictate how a job should be done but quite a different matter when you're at the coal face.

The trouble with today's attitude of everyone covering their own backs is that no one's allowed to bend the rules a little because they fear the one stoopid numpty will not think properly and cause a serious problem. The other 999 workers can make a sensible assessment but they're not allowed to. In the meantime we seem to have to accept that we cannot be trusted.

I have also found that if you ask a question no one wants to know just in case they get the answer wrong which means they can be sued. So once again, the worker is left to carry the can.

Must jump off my horse before I get into trouble ...

 

[MickW]

So, the RHPP has been announced and the grant is available from Aug 1st to March next year. Plenty of time for big firms to pretty much charge what they want, because there are next to no small businesses accredited to do the work at a more reasonable price.

 

[MickW]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

I can't guarantee it, Eaton, but I am pretty much working full time now on the campaign to make MCS simpler for small businesses and I want it quick!

I had a meeting on Tuesday with Gideon Richards, the Chairman of the MCS steering group, and Chris Yates, the man leading the current MCS review.

Gideon Richards dismissed, out of hand, the possibility of exemption from the QMS part of MCS for small business, stating that it is impossible because the scheme has to comply with European Standard BS EN 45011. To cut a long story short, I told him that I didn't believe that and I have subsequently asked him to show me where any Standard insists that a one man band has to have a Quality Management System. He hasn't come back to me yet.

In addition to continuing with that campaign, I am going to work with Chris Yates on the review with the aim of getting a vastly simplified version of QMS for small business and getting it quickly (a few months, not years).

Small business has already dipped out on the business generated by the RHPP grant announced today, because if they are not MCS accredited now, they will not have time to become accredited and fit anything before March, which is the cut off for installations.

And to DontKnowitAll - I walk the walk and the powers that be know I don't give up easily. I will get there, one way or another!

 

[CES]

I know I shouldn't get personal, But Id love to hoof that Gideon chap just once in the danglies, just for being an arrogant sod.
Instead of sitting on his chorus on a steering committee lording it, he should be doing something to help people achieve the goal of MCS accreditation instead of dismissing any ideas to help the little guys...

 

[unguided1]

I see that MickW and the campaign are mentioned in this months Gas Safe magazine, just Like to say well done for all the work you are doing on this campaign Mick and many thanks

 

[MickW]

Thank you.

 

[unguided1]

BG should they be banned from the MCS http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safety-register-forum/23622-2-5-million-pound-fine.html

 

[MickW]

BG should they be banned from the MCS http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safety-register-forum/23622-2-5-million-pound-fine.html

It does make a farce of what some people are saying about maintaining standards - All these nasty one off installers not being able to do the job properly or looking after their customers well... Like BG and Anglia FFS!

 

[TVR Steve]

My company (which is small) is booked on the course to be MCS registered. I have read many comments on here but by no means 19 pages of them.
I still dont understand what the problem is (apart from cost - same as GSR). Why have gas engineers got a problem with keeping records?
We all go on about the cowboys taking our business and cheapening the trade, now with renewables tradesmen have to show they give a toss about the customer rather than just saying they do.
If tradesmen/one man bands are so good at looking after the customer then why are they so reluctant to have procedures in place to prove we are doing what we say we are?
To me it is the equivalent of Corgi/GSR actually doing what they say and making it difficult for cowboys.
I do agree that the cost is outrageous, but then so is the potential workload for tradesmen who will take on the big companies and do a good job.

 

[CES]

The thing with the MCS is that it is perceived to be another "add on", yet another fee we have to pay in order to work. MCS might seem reasonable but when you look at the added costs which are in addition to GSR the system is fundamentally flawed and favours the big companies as "one fee fits all sizes".
Another argument is that we have been running businesses before MCS and provided good service so why should the introduction of a new scheme suddenly mean that without a QMS we don't provide good service?
It is now becoming obvious that even the big companies are not practicing what they preach when it comes to MCS. A lot of them are ignoring the REA scheme with regards sales tactics, incorrectly advising the returns of new technologies. Google the "which" report on solar stuff. So if this MCS is all that it is supposed to be then how come it doesn't stop companies who are registered being cowboys? - Truth in the matter is that it doesn't. Just because you are registered doesn't mean you cant be a cowboy and rip people off, by the same token, just because you aren't registered doesn't mean you will rip people off.

 

[boblydon]

I agree with What TVR Steve say's, likewise i have read a a lot of the thread but not every single post.

Yes the cost is outrageous but that's not that bad of a thing, the potential earnings will far out wiegh this cost, one thing it will do is keep these potential earning's within the small group of like minded individuals/companies who are willing to invest their hard earned profits into there future.

Lets face it very few customers would go to the huge expence of having any type of renewables installed with out recieving one of the various grants, feed in tarriffs etc, to get these the installer has to be registered, no Tom Dick or Harry can now jump on this potential cash cow with out training/registation.

If our gas industry had a similar type of closed shop registration, where by for example the customer could cliam the VAT back, or you could not buy gas aplliances with out registration then this may help our trade and give us more work.

My personal opinion is that MCS is good, and Corgi/Gassafe is a pile of ****e that does nothing to help us.

Bob

 

[CES]

The trouble is, every tom dick and harry can and is jumping on the bandwagon as the big companies are subcontracting work out to people who, although maybe trained, do not have to go to the expense of being MCS registered. This kind of proves the point that MCS in its current form is not fit for purpose. We now have Double glazing firms installing Solar panels, how can they prove competence? Big company salesmen ignoring the REAL scheme code of conduct when providing quotes,how do they get away with ignoring written codes of conduct? and then you have us, the small guys who have to dish out the exact same cost as the big firms and then wait for a renewable job to come along before we can even be considered for registration. I agree there has to be rules but rules must be followed by everybody, not just for the small guys.
I might be sounding a bit bitter, but Im in the process of registration as I think the only future for my business is renewable technologies but I see more and more leglislation being battered into us by so called experts, which prevent my business growing and yet the cowboys who are subbied to bigger outfits get away with it? Wheres the logic in following the rules?

By the way, Im not implying people who are subbied to bigger outfits are cowboys!

 

[boblydon]

I never realised that firms could sub this work out and still claim the tarriffs, i was under the impression that it was the same sort of set up we have in our gas registration....you had to be qualified ie mcs acredited/approved/registered.

Bob

 

[ecowarm]

There are ways round it i.e. its commissioned by the mcs company

 

[CES]

I'm getting registered with NAPIT for Solar PV. I'm using a mate of mine who's a Qualified Electrician who has been on the 4 day NICEIC Solar PV course. I queried NAPIT if I need any Solar qualification, they said no, as long as you use a suitably trained subcontractor. "Does he/she need to be MCS registered?" I asked, "No".
As far as Im concerned its a major loophole that is attracting the "fly by nights" so Im jumping on it too before all the work has gone! Its the only way I can think of fighting back and hopefully getting some work out of too. After all, the RHI has been nothing short of idiotic round my way, everyones on mains gas and what good's £300 for a solar thermal install?

 

[unguided1]

The MCS is not fit for purpose and is failling the customers it is designed to protect miserably, the fact is that if you can afford to pay for registration and you have a qms, then fine your in, I am constantly going round condeming installations by MCS accredited installers for quite basic mistakes, a prime example is last week the whole installation was ok apart from the fact that the underfloor heating manifolds were piped the wrong way round, flow on to return bar and return onto flow bar, this on both manifolds.

 

[MickW]

As I said on another thread, I'm sorry, that I have not been keeping you up to date with the campaign to make MCS more accessible for small business. This is partly because I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall dealing with the chair of the MCS steering group.

I am still trying to do what I can and the last contact I had with Gideon Richards (Chairman of the steering group) was to ask for 2 or 3 of the campaigners to be allowed to address the MCS Management Panel. They are all aware of the email exchanges between Mr Richards & I, but are all carefully making no comment.

Needless to say, my request has been ignored for the last 6 weeks, so I will be repeating my request in the next day or so - don't hold your breath!!!

 

[fuzzy]

from what i gather there will be little movement from the current position

 

[radswilldo]

I would like tell MickW that many of us appreciate your endeavors. Regarding MCS, i have been speaking with the tech at my plumbing federation for around a year now. From what I understand, MCS registry will not be the only game in town, it may even fall by the way side, via competent person schemes. Alterations and complete re-thinks are happening. Come March/April next year all may be very much different.

 

[fuzzy]

MCS is required for the tariffs, if your not applying for any said incentive does the installer need to be mcs? surely competence is all thats required, therefore if the tariffs alter or cease to be then so wil the mcs?