Hi Fuzzy firstly I admit I do not have all the answers and considering the state of our industry niether do the muppets that are supposed to be regulating our industry but I reckon that the whole industry desperatly needs a huge shake up also as we are all agreed that rougue installers are definetly cowboys, why not have a bounty system where every time a cowboy is prosecuted who ever assists with getting them caught gets a reward, more importantly this your industry as well as mine what are your suggestions to improve it
Discuss Changing the MCS in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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Hi Fuzzy firstly I admit I do not have all the answers and considering the state of our industry niether do the muppets that are supposed to be regulating our industry but I reckon that the whole industry desperatly needs a huge shake up also as we are all agreed that rougue installers are definetly cowboys, why not have a bounty system where every time a cowboy is prosecuted who ever assists with getting them caught gets a reward, more importantly this your industry as well as mine what are your suggestions to improve it
M
MickW
I'm at a meeting in the House of Lords next week with APHC sustainability group, which consists of mainly big businesses, but includes other groups like Summit Skills and Zero Carbon Hub, both of whom have input to government. I'm the only person there who is anywhere close to the sharp end of the industry and my only reason for being there is to make sure they don't forget small business.
I will be getting an update on the Green Deal and MCS and I will, of course, be talking about the industry campaign - I just haven't decided yet how best to handle it! I'll keep you all posted about how I get on.
D
dontknowitall
I'll suggest buying some bows and arrows, until I can come up with a much more sensible solution.
To be honest, a CLOSED book set of exams on the basics of heating and ventilating a house, wet plumbing, basic building regulations, water regulations and unvented cylinders and so on. A proviso that no examination can be taken within 4 weeks of attending a course. I find it all too easy to pass an exam when I've read the books that morning. I'd have much more difficulty if there was a time gap if I was new to the industry. If experienced then these basic exams would be quite simple.
Then subsets of exams on various forms of providing heat, i.e. gas, oil, solar, ground source, etc. A separate exam for basic electricity to be covered by plumbers and electricians and then more detailed exams for electricians.
Okay, I know it's more exams but IF THERE WAS ONE SINGLE BODY FOR PLUMBING, HEATING and ELECTRICITY instead of GasSafe, OFTEC, HETAS, MCS, REAL, CIPHE, ELECSA, NICIE, Mrs Jones's Trusted Plumbing and Heating Engineers, etc it would cut costs of registration and would also give customers a single contact point if they had an issue with a tradesman.
To me, all the above will stop those people just setting themselves up as a renewable heat source company and installing systems that don't work properly or are poorly installed. Please note there's nothing about recording phone calls, complaints procedures, etc, etc. It is purely trying to create a better standard of installation. I'm not trying to stop new companies - only wanting them to have sufficient knowledge and good installation techniques to make a good job as opposed to having great salespeople selling the wrong type of system to customers or not sticking to sensible installation standards.
As a separate topic I'd also like to see people like me who are reasonably new to the industry, having to pass a basic exam in building techniques (e.g. where to notch joists, sleeving pipes through walls, preparing walls before tiling, etc, etc). I'm sure most of us have taken an educated guess in the past when confronted with a difficulty and perhaps done jobs where we have since realised that we did something wrong.
I hope you dont miss any of them Mick. I take exception reading on the Summitskills website about how they are "Taking the lead role in putting together part of the action plan focusing on the skills and knowledge that will be required, SummitSkills was able to draw on its bank of expertise gained by working closely day-to-day with employers and trade associations in the plumbing, electrotechnical, heating and ventilating, refrigeration and air conditioning industries. These are the people who will be responsible for installing environmental technologies."
I for one have nothing to do with summit skills. I as a small business owner have never had any dealings whatsoever and no one has ever asked about my views on the industry. Maybe its time the people who make the decisions should take a little bit more care about whom they appoint as trusted advisors.
Most of these folk wouldn't know what a heat pump was if it bit them on the chorus (rhyming slang there).:mad2:
Goes to show just who is being catered for with this MCS. A training provider advising the government? hmm...
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I can lend you a pair of size tens a lump hammer and a Kango, with a bleeding loveslave for effect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
M
MickW
Thanks, Mike, but I think I'll make do with my briefing document and a few persuasive words! I might come back for the trade style attack equipment if they don't listen :icon12:
No worries Mick, are you sure that breifing document will be enough I am sure that me and the guys would be more than happy to assist with some WMC's, (Weapons of Mass Construction)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just found this on the Electricians Forum, turns out, they are not very happy either and one of their members TedM has asked question directly from the members to Gideon Richards who apparantly is the interim CEO of the MCS.
So I already know what I will be asking so if you have any questions for him fire away cos he will be getting a phone call for an apointment in the morning,
Here is the thread from the electricians forum Questions for MCS
So I already know what I will be asking so if you have any questions for him fire away cos he will be getting a phone call for an apointment in the morning,
Here is the thread from the electricians forum Questions for MCS
M
MickW
I have just had an interesting 28 minute phone call with Gideon Richards, Chair of MCS steering group, after I criticised him on hearing an interview he gave about MCS accreditation. Needless to say, we did not agree about a few things!!
Credit where credit is due, though, he is coming to see me in the very near future and he is bringing with him the guy who is leading the current consultation on MCS.
I'm looking forward to that
Credit where credit is due, though, he is coming to see me in the very near future and he is bringing with him the guy who is leading the current consultation on MCS.
I'm looking forward to that
I have just had an interesting 28 minute phone call with Gideon Richards, Chair of MCS steering group, after I criticised him on hearing an interview he gave about MCS accreditation. Needless to say, we did not agree about a few things!!
Credit where credit is due, though, he is coming to see me in the very near future and he is bringing with him the guy who is leading the current consultation on MCS.
I'm looking forward to that
I want to meet that git too
Looks like the message is getting through http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/news_story.asp?id=195094
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£18,000 per technology? I know it's expensive but?
What would you expect from a politician they never get all the facts right, but at least they are starting to realise that they have made another complete cockup.
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Aye, true. Should be an interesting 6 to 12 months.
F
fuzzy
we already have those exams unguided, within the original plumbing/heating quals. then there are additional quals for gas, oil, solar, heat pumps etc, so i think the model you suggest is alreay there. i do agree a single registration body would make things so much better
M
MickW
Right, I'm off at the crack of dawn to tackle the APHC Sustainability Group!
I'd like to get this lot supporting the campaign!
I'd like to get this lot supporting the campaign!
G
Gray0689
Best of luck Mick
M
MickW
Thanks lads!
Would it be worth noting something on the Government's Red Tape challenge website?
Red Tape Challenge - About Red Tape Challenge
Red Tape Challenge - About Red Tape Challenge
E
ecowarm
Can this be a sticky ???
It has had more replies and views than the other MCS thread that is a sticky.
Good call CES
It has had more replies and views than the other MCS thread that is a sticky.
Good call CES
M
mylocalgasman
Apologies if i have come in half way through a thread and this has already been covered, "Who is the driveing force behind the renewable market" , the general public, i dont think so, who on this forum has been inundated with enquiries from customers wanting to pay the extra charge involved in fitting green technolgies. There is not, nor will be any apetite from goverment to fund up-skilling. We are Skint !
M
MickW
Yes, I looked at that a couple of months ago, but it looks like they are inviting comment about specific legislation and I couldn't find anything to do with MCS accreditation there. I've had another look today and still can't find anything relevant. If you, or anyone else, can find a suitable section to place a comment, I'd be very grateful.
I did try to cover this in the closing paragraph of my original blog:
This government talks a lot about the green agenda, encouraging small business, and deregulation. Slimming down MCS to a competence/safety based system for small business will tick all those boxes, with zero downside risk.
M
MickW
It was an interesting meeting in the House of Lords with the APHC sustainability group.
MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!
I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.
However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.
I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!
Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.
Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!
MCS dominated the meeting and there was a lot of support for the campaign. There was one dissenting voice which came from a guy who wasn't actually there. He sent a long text to the chair saying that he disagreed with exempting small business from MCS and the reasons why! We are not, of course, asking for exemption from MCS, just the QMS part of it!
I had hoped that the group would formally agree to support the campaign, but it was not to be. A lot of the people were there representing their organisations and, although they personally agreed, they felt unable to formally commit their organisation.
However, it was most definitely useful with a number of influential people telling after the meeting that they will be contacting the right people to make sure we are taken seriously.
I tell you what, it is bloody hard work and very frustrating this campaigning and lobbying for support malarky! I don't think I would have the patience or discretion to be a politician and I most certainly would be too 'gobby'!!
Anyway, all in all, a good days work taking the campaign forward.
Thanks for all your support - it means a lot to me!
Well done for championing the cause Mick. Hopefully we might get some feedback and recognition. As for the guy who sent the text, he obviously doesn't listen, which doesn't really bode well when you are dealing with customers, but that's just my view! What were his reasons just out of interest?.
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A Massive well done Mick I do not envy you on this huge undertaking and as I said before I am more than willing to help and give any back up you need or I can just be there to get yer back up!!!.
I feel that the magic words that you have put that sums up your meeting, is that they were only there to represent their own organisations and fundamentaly I feel this is the problem with the whole of our industry, we the plumbers are the industry they the organisations are not the installers and the sooner they realise this the sooner we will be able to sort this whole debarcle out as I keep ranting on on there needs to be on scheme in place that represents us the installers not just a splintered group of fat cats only interested in keeping themselves in a job.
I would love to go to one of these meetings and give em a taste of how I feel about these muppets coz I knoe I wouldnt be able to hold my tongue, as indeed Gas Safe is going to find out on Monday the 18/7/11
E
ecowarm
Good luck with gas safe mike, lets hope GS don't have any muppets there!!
M
MickW
I have added an update to the original post in my blog which will also now be incorporated into the briefing document to be circulated around the industry. The update reads as follows:
UPDATE - 14th July 2011
Following consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, some concerns have been expressed that exempting smaller companies from the QMS elements of MCS could weaken consumer protection, and risk bringing the industry into disrepute. Whilst these concerns are understandable, we think that they are misplaced.
It is important to remember that consumer protection is properly covered by membership of the REAL Assurance Scheme, not by QMS. The REAL requirements are much more clearly written than QMS, and can be easily understood by consumer and installer alike. They cover mis-selling, the provision of technical information, allow for protection of vulnerable consumers and describe general good practice. Critically, they also provide a mechanism for conciliation, rectification and dispute resolution.
QMS tells people how to run their business. BPEC, C&G and other related qualifications teach people how to install systems correctly. REAL sets standards for how customers should be treated. The latter two are far more important than the former, and no-one is arguing that they should be scrapped.
We have not been able to find any critical area in the QMS element which would not be adequately covered for businesses of less than 5 employees either in the REAL Consumer Code, or in the general requirements, or in the technology-specific MIS series of documents. Should other stakeholders identify such a critical omission then it may be necessary to make a minor addition to one of the latter documents.
UPDATE - 14th July 2011
Following consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, some concerns have been expressed that exempting smaller companies from the QMS elements of MCS could weaken consumer protection, and risk bringing the industry into disrepute. Whilst these concerns are understandable, we think that they are misplaced.
It is important to remember that consumer protection is properly covered by membership of the REAL Assurance Scheme, not by QMS. The REAL requirements are much more clearly written than QMS, and can be easily understood by consumer and installer alike. They cover mis-selling, the provision of technical information, allow for protection of vulnerable consumers and describe general good practice. Critically, they also provide a mechanism for conciliation, rectification and dispute resolution.
QMS tells people how to run their business. BPEC, C&G and other related qualifications teach people how to install systems correctly. REAL sets standards for how customers should be treated. The latter two are far more important than the former, and no-one is arguing that they should be scrapped.
We have not been able to find any critical area in the QMS element which would not be adequately covered for businesses of less than 5 employees either in the REAL Consumer Code, or in the general requirements, or in the technology-specific MIS series of documents. Should other stakeholders identify such a critical omission then it may be necessary to make a minor addition to one of the latter documents.
Nice article Mick, Seems like easy MCS Disagree with this just read this in Renewable energy installer.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”
Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.
Responding to the consultation document, Easy MCS operations manager, Simon Roberts
commented: “The MCS Consultation is taking place to ascertain the barriers to new installers
being able to enter the industry alongside the barriers consumers have in investing in
microgeneration technologies. If the UK renewable industry is to match the demand estimates
from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) then more installers are needed.
However, this is already starting to happen. Month on month more and more installers are
applying for MCS and demand at Easy MCS is at a 12 month high.”
Roberts says the current setup of the MCS is very effective. He added: “The standards are
onerous and therefore protect the consumer whilst at the same time provide the installation
company involved with the structure needed to be a successful business. New installers
shouldn’t fear the MCS as with the right support it is accessible to all companies regardless of
size. We have responded to the consultation outlining our thoughts on some of the concerns
raised about maintaining the quality of installers whilst also making more installers aware of
the scheme. We fully support the management of the MCS scheme and look forward to
assisting in increasing awareness to new installers.”
Mind you it's not in their interest to make things easy for small installers they'd lose a lot of customers if the qms was relaxed.
Just like to say thank you for finding that Markfxy, It just goes to show that people like Simon Roberts have no interest in helping small companies go forward in the renewable market unless they are paying extorionate fees for completley irrelevent QMS, They claim to be a voice in the industry but as far as I am concerned they are not the voice of my industry that is heating and plumbing they are the voice of an industry that does not need to exist, Biomass, solar thermal, heatpumps and CHP should be left to the heating engineers, and PV and wind farms could be dealt with by the electricians, why the hell do we need another so called industry creaming money of the backs of the people already trained to do these types of installation
Give it a few years when the cost of solar PV has come down and the massive profits have gone all the double glazing companies and the rest of them that have jumped on the bandwagon will pull out of the renewables market including easy MCS. Then when there's nobody to install other technologies maybe then the government might realise that ignoring the small installer, one man band wasn't such a good idea. just a thought:smug2:
here is someone else saying the same thing Government microgeneration scheme faces shortage of certified engineers | Randstad Construction, Property & Engineering News
this makes an intersting read, admitedly it is very old news in the world of poitics but note the names in the last paragraph Why Whitehall hates solar panels - Telegraph talk about keep it in the family!!!!!!!!!!!
This article makes interesting reading and it shows how the MCS scheme has failed customers Solar industry found guilty of failing to police itself | Energy and Environmental Management (EAEM) Magazine
Nice find that one it just goes to prove that the customer is not being protected at all by the need for a QMS in my eyes it is a complete and utter pointless exercise
I like the bit where they mention salesmen sent out to do technical assessments (double glazing salesmen) I might be wrong but to price and assess a system shouldn't you be under MCS rules be a competent person, I wonder how many lose their MCS accreditation because of this probably none of the bigger companies but a one man band would be booted out straight away.
M
MickW
Sad isn't it that I think you're probably right! Bugger off you, I absolutely refuse to be depressed! :30:
The campaign is going well and I've got meetings on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday which will help!!
F
fuzzy
They obviously dont want 1 man bands doing a lot of this work. In the past its many 1 man bands who have given the industry a bad name with poor workmanship. They must be wanting to protect people from this, which in turn should improve the image of the industry
You are probably correct in your thinking Fuzzy, but no-one could ever admit that as it goes against all competition laws. I find it quite interesting that some of these big firms use smaller businesses to install the technologies on their behalf, effectively by passing the rules of MCS. Who wins out of that? certainly not the customer and then the industry takes a pounding.
Maybe they should remove the clause that lets an MCS accredited company use subcontractors? Atleast that way every installer is responsible for the job. Big firms would be forced to employ their own trained staff, smaller subcontracting firms would have to apply to be MCS accredited and therefore responsible for their installs and to bring them alongside the one man band who at the moment has to provide both the admin AND technical expertise.
I still disagree with the QMS but thats another tangent.
F
fuzzy
do you not want the industry to be tightened up?
M
MickW
I was replying to CES - I don't want the industry 'tightened up' to exclude decent competent installers and let dodgy bigger firms get away with stuff.
My campaign is nothing to do with letting standards or consumer protection diminish. Have you read the update to my blog?
F
fuzzy
I saw your response to 'tightening up' post and based on your comment considered it to mean you dont want the industry to be controlled.
I read all the time plumbers complaining that sole traders doing poor workmanship ruins the reputation of the industry, we cannot then complain about being regulated, we cannot have it both ways.
They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?
I read all the time plumbers complaining that sole traders doing poor workmanship ruins the reputation of the industry, we cannot then complain about being regulated, we cannot have it both ways.
They cannot enforce regulation only on bad plumbers, it has to be all. If the system is being misused by larger firms then they should tackle the issue, not water it down to suit more misuse surely?
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Maybe it's just me, but I've always found the larger or national companies give a much poorer service than the '1 man bands', but being a 1 man band I'm biased.
I'm all for giving my customers a great service and would say 99.9% would agree, you always get the odd one now and again that can never be pleased, and I speak to customers about their options. I can't give them specifics about cost savings, grants etc but to give them an overview of whats available. I also tell them it if they want to seriously investigate renewables to make sure they use an MCS installer and make sure the equipment is MCS accredited, which then prompts the 'why don't you do it?' and the long winded conversation about costs involved etc.
I'm sure I will do it at some point, but not just yet.
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Interesting point, but surely thats what they should be doing enforcing regulation on bad plumbers. I thought thats the point of being Gas Safe, Oftec, G3. If they're not going to enforce the regulations/poor workmanship why be a member?
Why does the renewable sector require a QMS when other parts don't?
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