Hi fuzzy I am completly unaware of the new qualifications I just know that the ones I attained 30 years ago are no longer worth the paper they are written on
Discuss Changing the MCS in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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Hi fuzzy I am completly unaware of the new qualifications I just know that the ones I attained 30 years ago are no longer worth the paper they are written on
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fuzzy
2399 is renewable energy quals, solar, gshp. ashp etc etc. It is the new qcf suite and very thourough. It puts installers on the new skills database so clients can check (see my other thread)
Quals completed 30 years ago are very out of date in relation to renewable technology. I agree with supporting engineers in our industry to upskill as this will be to the benfit of all
Quals completed 30 years ago are very out of date in relation to renewable technology. I agree with supporting engineers in our industry to upskill as this will be to the benfit of all
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do you know how long the course is and how much it costs fuzzy ?
F
fuzzy
if you did all of the course its around 350 hours of learning
i guess most centres will break it up into parts
initial over view and exam - 15 hours prob run 1 day ish with half done on your own away from centre
solar
pv
heat pumps (air and ground)
rainwater and greay water harvesting
all around 70- hours in total
i guess they will split this up too
if done as part of advanced apprenticeship it will be free
if adult upskilling it will range from £150ish - £1,000s???
id hope the government come up with some funding
this is a better course than the short courses designed just for installers
check out my other thread, it has a link
i guess most centres will break it up into parts
initial over view and exam - 15 hours prob run 1 day ish with half done on your own away from centre
solar
pv
heat pumps (air and ground)
rainwater and greay water harvesting
all around 70- hours in total
i guess they will split this up too
if done as part of advanced apprenticeship it will be free
if adult upskilling it will range from £150ish - £1,000s???
id hope the government come up with some funding
this is a better course than the short courses designed just for installers
check out my other thread, it has a link
M
MickW
DECC published the Microgeneration Strategy today. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...ogeneration/2015-microgeneration-strategy.pdf
In that document, the importance of small business is recognised in Action 25 and the explanation in clause 4.14.
Action 25
Industry bodies to reach out to the small installer community who are potential advocates of microgeneration technologies as part of their everyday business.
Well, they have got this spot on, but most small installers are not even talking microgeneration to potential consumers and they won’t until they feel able to get involved.
I think most of us agree with the sentiments of Action 25, but as it stands, the smaller installer community are not ready to be advocates, but quite the opposite. I believe my proposal to exempt small business from the QMS element, if implemented, will help this part of the strategy succeed.
In that document, the importance of small business is recognised in Action 25 and the explanation in clause 4.14.
Action 25
Industry bodies to reach out to the small installer community who are potential advocates of microgeneration technologies as part of their everyday business.
4.14 At present, small installer companies may be not be clarifying the case for microgeneration to potential consumers. The trade associations and other industry bodies have an ideal opportunity to work with their respective members to promote microgeneration. SMEs will want clear concise information about what the opportunities of microgeneration mean for them and how they can get involved.
Well, they have got this spot on, but most small installers are not even talking microgeneration to potential consumers and they won’t until they feel able to get involved.
I think most of us agree with the sentiments of Action 25, but as it stands, the smaller installer community are not ready to be advocates, but quite the opposite. I believe my proposal to exempt small business from the QMS element, if implemented, will help this part of the strategy succeed.
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Well having looked through the whole of that document, I suspect that the tosser who wrote it was suffering from verbal diarrhea or it was written by one of those MPs who takes backhanders from the sort of people this sort of garbage will benefit.
M
MickW
and I thought I was gobby!! :cheesy:
I read the whole document as well :icon9: and a lot of it makes sense, but I think that they'll have their work cut out to convert most of you lot into advocates right now! They could, though, with a small adjustment to MCS for small business!
Yeah it only needs a small adjustment at that, scrap the whole danmed thing!!!!!!!!!!!
M
MickW
I don't think we have a hope in hell of getting it scrapped, which is why I want small business to be exempt from the QMS part of it.
I am surprised that more people are not posting on this blog, this is your trade and it is being decided how our trade proceeds by pen pushing beurocrats so come on guys what does it take for you to try and claim your trade back, right now a couple of minutes righting on a blog in the future you may regret not spending the time to object
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Been on and done it, also trying to spread the word but majority haven't even heard of MCS. Bit of a worry when a couple of these are advertising solar thermal!
Hi SimonG
I know you have and your comments are apreciated and what you have said lays at the core of the argument for having a super regulatory body that encompasses all technologies at the present time the regulatory bodies are only interested in what they are regulating, there is no one out there to regulate the sytems that are installed and having been on the electricians forum to gain some form of support I have found that they have infact embraced the MCS as a good thing because it appears that their industry is much better organised than ours and much less splintered, so when I started a thread bleating on about the MCS, they in fact have no idea what I am moaning about, Where as you speak to many installers in the plumbing trade as you have quite rightly said many plumbers do not know about it or they are not interested because of the physical cost and the QMS. This is definatley not going to help the government reach its targets and our industry is going to be in more of a mess
I know you have and your comments are apreciated and what you have said lays at the core of the argument for having a super regulatory body that encompasses all technologies at the present time the regulatory bodies are only interested in what they are regulating, there is no one out there to regulate the sytems that are installed and having been on the electricians forum to gain some form of support I have found that they have infact embraced the MCS as a good thing because it appears that their industry is much better organised than ours and much less splintered, so when I started a thread bleating on about the MCS, they in fact have no idea what I am moaning about, Where as you speak to many installers in the plumbing trade as you have quite rightly said many plumbers do not know about it or they are not interested because of the physical cost and the QMS. This is definatley not going to help the government reach its targets and our industry is going to be in more of a mess
M
MickW
Lee Davies is the new President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering (CIPHE). He has written a blog, which is very supportive of our campaign to exempt small business from the QMS part of MCS. Lee Davies FCIPHE RP | President of the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering 2011-12
He also talks about the plethora of legislation and micro-regulatory bodies and suggests that one body could replace all these.
Excellent blog all round and a good start for the new president in my opinion.
He also talks about the plethora of legislation and micro-regulatory bodies and suggests that one body could replace all these.
Excellent blog all round and a good start for the new president in my opinion.
Sounds like the campaign is getting some real teeth, To be Honest I do not know anything about CIPHE, but I have heard them mentioned.
Now if a body like CIPHE could sort out some sort of registration scheme encompassing all technologies and it cost about the same as Gas Safe each year I would be very interested, especially If it got rid of Gas Safe, Oftec, Heatas and this bleeding MCS.
Oh and by the way I finally opened one of my Gas Safe magazines, dunno what month it was and yup just as I expected a load a tripe saying how wonderfull every one is and a lot of back slapping, a shed load of adverts fer trainning courses, wish I had saved me strength having to rip open the plastic bag
Now if a body like CIPHE could sort out some sort of registration scheme encompassing all technologies and it cost about the same as Gas Safe each year I would be very interested, especially If it got rid of Gas Safe, Oftec, Heatas and this bleeding MCS.
Oh and by the way I finally opened one of my Gas Safe magazines, dunno what month it was and yup just as I expected a load a tripe saying how wonderfull every one is and a lot of back slapping, a shed load of adverts fer trainning courses, wish I had saved me strength having to rip open the plastic bag
M
Mrs Tara Plumbi
The reason i have not written might be the same as some others who remain silent (so Far)
That is i agree with what is said on the blog and what you say unguided1 but it is complicated
so other than stating that we broadly are in support I am not sure what i can add that would be constructive.
I will post my support there.
For us and most small businesses I think the cost of being involved (including the person -hours it will take) are too high set against how quickly we could recover that investment through actual work.
We are already busy ALL the time doing boiler changes and new bathrooms.
I would like to be involved in promoting and installing these technologies but the upfront costs o us to get involved in this scheme are simply not justifiable.
I think if the govt want to promote new technologies AND manufacturers want to sell their products then the upfront cost should be falling largely between them - ultimately it is always the customer & tax payer who pays.
- while i'm on a moan let me add it is bad enough that we already have the burden of being unpaid tax collectors via VAT, PAYE and subcontractors schemes.... and all the other red tape
I would say put exactly what you have said on the blog, I now beleive that the fact that the Elctrical industry has taken to the MCS like a duck to water, means that the powers that be honestly believe that the plumbing industry will follow. The main problem with the plumbing industry is at this moment things are moving faster than anyone realises and the fact is the majority of people in our trade have barely heard of a heatpump let alone seen one, and to be honest I have found customers know more about heatpumps than the installers.
Now the Government are dithering around with indesicion about the RHI for heatpumps because at this moment there are debates going on as to whether heat pumps can really save money,energy efficient and are renewable, Well I reckon that they are, and the biggest problem for heatpumps is misselling and missunderstanding their limitations most important of all the fact that the majority of installers not understanding the best way of using this technology to get the best out of them, so the government have introduced the MCS with a really costly focus on QMS and not on the technology itself and because of this incompitance they are harming our industry by splintering it even further by forcing more companies to specialise instead of allowing us who are trained and understand heating systems to just get on with what we are trained to do.
I am a one man band so picture this say I have a customer who wants a heating system in their house and they want a bivalent system utilising a heat pump, solar thermal, a woodburner of some type and an oil boiler, because I am a one man band and I am gas safe right now I have lost a customer, I am fully capabable and trained to install of the above but because of the physical yearly costs of registrations, I only register the with the one body I am most likely to use, So what does my customer do, use companies that they do not know and trust, do they get a different installer for each technology.
One other thing as well I have a confession to make regarding Mickw's original boiler scrappage scheme when I first saw it I had my doubts and honestly believed Mick was waisting his time, I never signed the pettition, why because I honestly believed he was wasting his time fighting beaurocrocy. when I heard that the boiler scrappage scheme was really going to happen I was shocked and surprised at what he had achieved in what appeared to be a very short time. I am usually the first to bleat and moan when I am not happy and usually the last to do anything about it, well this time its different
Now the Government are dithering around with indesicion about the RHI for heatpumps because at this moment there are debates going on as to whether heat pumps can really save money,energy efficient and are renewable, Well I reckon that they are, and the biggest problem for heatpumps is misselling and missunderstanding their limitations most important of all the fact that the majority of installers not understanding the best way of using this technology to get the best out of them, so the government have introduced the MCS with a really costly focus on QMS and not on the technology itself and because of this incompitance they are harming our industry by splintering it even further by forcing more companies to specialise instead of allowing us who are trained and understand heating systems to just get on with what we are trained to do.
I am a one man band so picture this say I have a customer who wants a heating system in their house and they want a bivalent system utilising a heat pump, solar thermal, a woodburner of some type and an oil boiler, because I am a one man band and I am gas safe right now I have lost a customer, I am fully capabable and trained to install of the above but because of the physical yearly costs of registrations, I only register the with the one body I am most likely to use, So what does my customer do, use companies that they do not know and trust, do they get a different installer for each technology.
One other thing as well I have a confession to make regarding Mickw's original boiler scrappage scheme when I first saw it I had my doubts and honestly believed Mick was waisting his time, I never signed the pettition, why because I honestly believed he was wasting his time fighting beaurocrocy. when I heard that the boiler scrappage scheme was really going to happen I was shocked and surprised at what he had achieved in what appeared to be a very short time. I am usually the first to bleat and moan when I am not happy and usually the last to do anything about it, well this time its different
E
ecowarm
I'm a Member of the CIPHE and they have this [DLMURL="http://www.ciphe.org.uk/greenplumb/"]GreenPlumb - CIPHE[/DLMURL] a free registration scheme for plumbers (its not free if you're not registered with CIPHE)
This could be used instead of the MCS but as unguided is saying we need ONE body to cover ALL the heating technologies, could CIPHE do this?
I have just finished altering the heating system on an extension for a customer, the builder has installed a wood burning stove which I presumed the customer would have asked me to install. They have not followed the MI on any part of the fitting, 2 young labourers did the fitting, in my opinion it is dangerous and have not fitted a carbon monoxide alarm which is now required. I'm not HETAS registered but would and do install solid fuel appliances. But I do it right.
Why can it not be possible to be registered with one body and be able, if competent to install and register all heating appliances?
This could be used instead of the MCS but as unguided is saying we need ONE body to cover ALL the heating technologies, could CIPHE do this?
I have just finished altering the heating system on an extension for a customer, the builder has installed a wood burning stove which I presumed the customer would have asked me to install. They have not followed the MI on any part of the fitting, 2 young labourers did the fitting, in my opinion it is dangerous and have not fitted a carbon monoxide alarm which is now required. I'm not HETAS registered but would and do install solid fuel appliances. But I do it right.
Why can it not be possible to be registered with one body and be able, if competent to install and register all heating appliances?
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I'm a member of CIPHE too Ecowarm, IMHO there are too many different organisations that say we should be members of, most of which are moneypits who don't provide any real value for money. If it came to us having one organisation then I would embrace it like we all should in the industry.
M
MickW
Life is so frustrating sometimes!
I sent the briefing paper, calling for exemption from the QMS part of MCS for small business, to my MP asking for his support. He wrote to Greg Barker, the minister of state for DECC, who replied last week. Neither my MP or Greg Barker addressed the point I was making!! Instead, I was pointed to the Microgeneration Strategy document.
I phoned my MPs assistant last week explaining that they had both completely ignored the important point that I am making and demanding to see him so that I can explain the campaign face to face.
Today, I get a phone call from his assistant saying that he will be pleased to meet me - so far so good! He then went on to tell me that his diary secretary will phone me sometime this week to arrange the meeting!!
His diary secretary??? SOMETIME THIS WEEK??? Couldn't the bloody diary secretary have phoned me today???
Ok, rant over - I suppose I am being unreasonable, but it is now nearly a month since I first raised the subject with him..........
I sent the briefing paper, calling for exemption from the QMS part of MCS for small business, to my MP asking for his support. He wrote to Greg Barker, the minister of state for DECC, who replied last week. Neither my MP or Greg Barker addressed the point I was making!! Instead, I was pointed to the Microgeneration Strategy document.
I phoned my MPs assistant last week explaining that they had both completely ignored the important point that I am making and demanding to see him so that I can explain the campaign face to face.
Today, I get a phone call from his assistant saying that he will be pleased to meet me - so far so good! He then went on to tell me that his diary secretary will phone me sometime this week to arrange the meeting!!
His diary secretary??? SOMETIME THIS WEEK??? Couldn't the bloody diary secretary have phoned me today???
Ok, rant over - I suppose I am being unreasonable, but it is now nearly a month since I first raised the subject with him..........
And we are supposed to entrust the future of our industry to these people? No matter how they dress things up a government department is a slow moving dinosaur, obviously they don't follow the same rigorous quality systems that they have forced upon our industry in order to streamline their own processes!
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M
MickW
Ok, I've calmed down a little bit now 
A decent bit of coverage for the campaign in an environmental mag:
Small businesses not involved in microgeneration drive
A decent bit of coverage for the campaign in an environmental mag:
Small businesses not involved in microgeneration drive
F
Flamethrower
Looks like "head in the sand mentality" avoidance if I can put them off long enough they might go away!
Having just gone through the long drawn out process of MCS and the QMS (which is totally OTT for small businesses),
I become more convinced that it just another instance of them that can do do and them that cant (just watch,and charge us for the privilege!
Having just gone through the long drawn out process of MCS and the QMS (which is totally OTT for small businesses),
I become more convinced that it just another instance of them that can do do and them that cant (just watch,and charge us for the privilege!
M
MickW
According to somebody called Mark Weston:
"Making MCS a free for all for small installers would destroy the industry over night, flood it with smaller companies who possibly couln’t cope (ie. didnt have a structure for growth in place which MCS creates), possibly were out to make a fast buck and weren’t bothered about customer protection or best practice."
mg_smile:
Needless to say, I have responded ...
Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
"Making MCS a free for all for small installers would destroy the industry over night, flood it with smaller companies who possibly couln’t cope (ie. didnt have a structure for growth in place which MCS creates), possibly were out to make a fast buck and weren’t bothered about customer protection or best practice."
mg_smile:Needless to say, I have responded ...
Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
Toddyplumb
Gas Engineer
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Right all you guys who are members of CIPHE go onto the CIPHE forum and have your say there as well as here . The president is singing Micks praises , but unless the membership start expressing their views on there I fear the institute will do nothing but blog.
M
MickW
What are they saying on the Baxi forum, Toddyplumb? (not allowed on there..grumble..moan...grumble)
RE: Micks Blog & Mark Weston
I think this guy has been drinking MCS "Kool-aid". The consumer protection that MCS provides?? uh.. I think that will be REA listing nothing to do with MCS QMS. He seems to think that because someone is MCS accredited then the consumer will get higher standards of installation? I reckon Unguided could show him a few "high standard installations".
Its noticeable to see that out of the posts that are on Micks blog, only this individual is against the arguments for it to be reconsidered.
I think this guy has been drinking MCS "Kool-aid". The consumer protection that MCS provides?? uh.. I think that will be REA listing nothing to do with MCS QMS. He seems to think that because someone is MCS accredited then the consumer will get higher standards of installation? I reckon Unguided could show him a few "high standard installations".
Its noticeable to see that out of the posts that are on Micks blog, only this individual is against the arguments for it to be reconsidered.
How is the Government going to achieve the renewables target set by Europe without getting the small firms involved I know people would rather use someone from a recommendation rather than a large company with a glossy ad.
We should all write to our MP's and state that we will from now only be promoting the use of gas and oil boilers and persuade customers not to use renewables as the standard of installation from MCS registered companies is very poor and massively overpriced, If enough plumbers did this maybe they'd take notice.
We should all write to our MP's and state that we will from now only be promoting the use of gas and oil boilers and persuade customers not to use renewables as the standard of installation from MCS registered companies is very poor and massively overpriced, If enough plumbers did this maybe they'd take notice.
E
ecowarm
I have replied to Mark's message on Mick's blog with this,
Some of the MCS certified companies that I have had dealings with are installing Solar Thermal and ASHP's with no previous experience of plumbing, they are a detriment to the industry. And to say small companies would be in it for a fast buck is a joke, the like of "fit the best" double glazing companies aren't! I see they can offer 35% discount in the summer sale, well as a small company I'm sure if I was MCS certified and then added 400%
to my £3000- £4000 for solar thermal I could then have a summer sale!!!!!!!!! Oh and yes they do try to charge £18k for a small domestic solar system!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some of the MCS certified companies that I have had dealings with are installing Solar Thermal and ASHP's with no previous experience of plumbing, they are a detriment to the industry. And to say small companies would be in it for a fast buck is a joke, the like of "fit the best" double glazing companies aren't! I see they can offer 35% discount in the summer sale, well as a small company I'm sure if I was MCS certified and then added 400%
to my £3000- £4000 for solar thermal I could then have a summer sale!!!!!!!!! Oh and yes they do try to charge £18k for a small domestic solar system!!!!!!!!!!!!!
E
ecowarm
It would probably be of best use written on ANDREX
I know all of our MP's are whiter than white and totally honest but just imagine if they decided to invest in renewable energy companies to cream off some of the massive profits being made from solar PV they wouldn't want too many small installation companies undercutting them would they!
Of course it would never happen in this country would it:smilewinkgrin:
Of course it would never happen in this country would it:smilewinkgrin:
Toddyplumb
Gas Engineer
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- 983
CES , so you have , you will be lucky to upset anyone hardley anyone uses it , so come on you CIPHE members go rant.
Mick , the chap at Baxi who instigated the course and had experience of MCS has left the company
Mick , the chap at Baxi who instigated the course and had experience of MCS has left the company
E
ecowarm
Where in the CIPHE forum is it?
E
ecowarm
I don't have that option. only just registered on the forum
M
MickW
Wonderful! (Mind you, his experience was with solar pv, which could provide far greater profit margins than solar thermal - different ball game, although that may be changing shortly!)
How are you getting on with their QMS Template?
F
Flamethrower
To deal with the MCS and customise your QMS I can recommend the services of www.supermac.biz freelance PA who offers back office support for small businesses made my life a lot easier!
Not much point putting that on this thread Flamethrower, were trying to do away with the need for any QMS for small businesses so cmon and join the fight for a fair deal for small independant businesses and put some encouraging words on Mickw's Blog, we hope that in the long run it will save us a fortune and put us on a better footing when pricing against the real cowboys that are big business. With a bit of luck it may also save our industry from being splintered further if the retards who invented the MCS actualy listen to the real people who actualy do the real work in our industry
F
fuzzy
how do you propose we eliminate cowboys?
K
Kimou
MCS don't want you, the small guy, to have any part of their industry. All the excuses are groundless as they only want to keep the prices high and make a shed load of money. They are part of the Summit Skills quango. These people are the ones who wanted to implement 6129 plumbing in schools for 14 year olds about 5 years ago. They don't check your work they check your paperwork and catch you out on this to fail you. They failed this guy who my teacher knew on an import ticket he submitted of a pellet boiler.
It is changing and you will be able to access it more easily. I will find out more info regarding how and bring it here to you all. At present I don't have exact information. Only bits and I don't wish to confuse anything.
It is changing and you will be able to access it more easily. I will find out more info regarding how and bring it here to you all. At present I don't have exact information. Only bits and I don't wish to confuse anything.
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