Central heating pump sizing

[Reddwarf4ever]

What do you mean by D3 on the pump, is it constant pressure as shown in the diagram, and can you read off the flowrate, the head and the watts, can then calculate the boiler output.

And yes your old pump was kaput or full of sludge as it should have been circulating 0.66 M3/hr (11 LPM) at a head of 4.9M based on your new pump readings above.

Sorry

meant CP3, trying CP2 now.....will get readings ASAP

 

[John.g]

"What is the theory about having a lower flow Vs inlet temperature ? Is it simply it has more residence time in the rads ? "
More sometimes equals less.
Yes, but you also need to keep the mean radiator temperature as near design temperature as possible, above you have flow/return temps of 68/57, mean of 62.5C which results in the rad emitting 81% of its rated output based on a room temperature of 20C, if you are happy with this but require a return temperature of say 50C but also require the same mean rad temperature of 62.5C then there is only one way of achieving this and that is to raise the boiler/rad flow temperature to 75C and keep reducing the flowrate until the return temp is 50C, this still gives a mean rad temp of 62.5C. and no problems in heating your DHW cylinder.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

"What is the theory about having a lower flow Vs inlet temperature ? Is it simply it has more residence time in the rads ? "
More sometimes equals less.
Yes, but you also need to keep the mean radiator temperature as near design temperature as possible, above you have flow/return temps of 68/57, mean of 62.5C which results in the rad emitting 81% of its rated output based on a room temperature of 20C, if you are happy with this but require a return temperature of say 50C but also require the same mean rad temperature of 62.5C then there is only one way of achieving this and that is to raise the boiler/rad flow temperature to 75C and keep reducing the flowrate until the return temp is 50C, this still gives a mean rad temp of 62.5C. and no problems in heating your DHW cylinder.

Thanks, will experiment with your suggestions tomorrow...defo looks like this pump is doing a much better job than the old one......If CP1 doesn’t give a low enough head to achieve a good DT, is there another setting to try ?
1- does anyone know if the heat recovery is a constant, as the inlet temperature falls ? Or as I assume it’s a curve, giving less heat recovery as the temperature falls, think the majority must be achieved at around 50-55oC ?
2-I read it’s a good idea to increase rad sizes when changing to a condensing boiler to assist the low return temperature, so is my idea of changing the 2 rads in my lounge to double fin, a good way to go ?
3- is it normal to heat the hot water the same time as having the heating on ? Because the heat removed from the immersion cylinder will be no where near what the rads remove, and having both would ‘ share’ the flow....
4-.I assume in the summer months with hot water only, condensing mode would not easily be achieved

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

is the system hot already or cold ?

HOT

 

[John.g]

I would increase the flow temp to 75C then go to CP2 and write down the boiler deltaT and the pump flow,head & watts.
Then ditto for CP1, PP3 & PP2.
Remember though that if the head is too low then some rads will run colder than others and require balancing, for the moment don't bother with balancing.
I run my boiler at 75C with TRVs on 8 of the 10 rads and I've often seen 40C return temps, I have never balanced the rads, I run on PP3 which, with my system, gives ~ 12LPM @ 3.4M head. I would expect your system to run at [email protected] on CP1, 8.5LPM@3M on CP2, [email protected] on CP3. 9 [email protected] on PP3, & [email protected] on PP2.

Q1. If you mean boiler heat recovery = efficiency then the lower the return temp the greater the efficiency due to enhanced condensing effect.

Q2. I have used a factor of X2 on any replacement rads to allow for weather compensation etc if my present non condensing boiler ever gives up the ghost.

Q3. A lot of boilers now use DHW priority where, when DHW is required, the boiler switches to HW heating and automatically increases the boiler SP temp to 80C which gives very fast heating times but little or no condensing benefit and then switches back to CH after the 30/45 mins or so required.
But if you are not too worried about the length of time required to heat the cylinder then you can install a balancing gate valve on the cylinder return and by throttling it in to say 1/4 turn open you can easily get 50C for a lot of the heating period even with a flow temp of 75C.

Q4. As above.

The effect of return temps on condensing benefit is clearly shown below, not any huge benefits at 50/55C but below 50C, not bad at all.

Happy testing.

 

[John.g]

Condensing Effects on boiler efficiency.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Thanks that graph is exactly what I was looking for, even asked in a scientific forum, but got no where
trying various options with the boiler

CP1 Boiler target 68oC 8KW limit inlet 46oC
8.6-10W
1.8-2.0m
0.4l/h

CP2 Boiler target 68oC 8KW limit inlet 46oC
13.2-17W
2.6-3.0m
0.5-0.7l/h
not sure why the fluctuation, found if impress the Mode button once quickly, it cycles through the values, the manual says pressing it changes the mode, but only when it’s displaying the mode ( multipurpose buttons not helpful ) I previously held the button in until it displayed a rotating ‘arrow’ then pressed once, but although it display the readings, it had gone through a degas so values had changed, easier now I know.

One problem IMO apart from the pump, is the valiant boiler Eco tec plus 418, it does not modulate very well, often continuing to hard fire as it reaches the target temperature and thus overshoots, made worse by the fact it cuts out when only 3oC over temperature. Takes a long while going through the tripping restarting before it settles down again. Sometimes I drop the KW limit to 5KW and ‘ nurse ‘ it back up by slowly increasing the KW.....IMO I should t have to do this, & if I can do this then the boiler should. I wonder if the boiler is actually oversized, which again antagonises the problem. if it were sized as say 12 KW instead of 18 KW, wouldn’t it be able to cope with lower flows ? If that is the case then it will always be a struggle.....

I have 7 radiators which could be made double fin.....wonder how much effect that would have on the delta T ???

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Ok on CP1... pump 9W 1.8m 0.5l/h fairly stable
boiler 68oC target & actual, inlet 55oC

So am just on the condensing temperature & it’s slowly going up.
i have 12 rads total
All 100x50cm
downstairs
2 double ( one of which only gets really hot when on CP3 in extension room)
2 single
1 towel
upstairs
2 towel
5 single

Detached brick house built 1987, 3 bed, game room, store room, lounge, kitchen, cloakroom, bathroom and shower room....usually at 23oC, wonder what size boiler I would need for this, need to compare with the 18KW I have.

wonder if, as per my previous post, the boiler is over sized, assuming a smaller one can handle a lower flow, which would help the DT.....all I can think of doing at this point is increasing rad sizes.....or living with an inefficient heating

 

[ShaunCorbs]

As you can adjust the output of the boiler work out your rad kw and add them all together that’s what you set your boiler out put to

 

[John.g]

I don't see any reason whatsoever to get a smaller boiler, you already have a 5.5kw (minimum output?) boiler, you seem to have some control problem when first firing up, either not modulating down rapidly enough after ignition (unlikely, with the boiler demand above of 10.23 kw on CP1 and 15.34kw on CP2, OR it is modulating down OK after start up but is then increasing the firing rate too fast to enable it to ramp down when the SP is reached, not helped by the 3 deg hysteresis.
You might carry out a simple test, once the boiler has settled down at its target temperature of 68C?, change the target temperature rapidly to say 73/75c and see if the burner cuts out on high temp (target+3C, in your case), if it does. then a control problem, IMO, or it may cut out on deltaT so make a note of whichever, if satisfactory, reduce the target to 68c and again watch its reaction.