But what controls do I ACTUALLY need to have installed with the boiler?!

[Blackspaven]

Just starting to have the trickle of plumbers round doing quotes for boilers and, as I suspected and hoped WOULDN'T happen, they're giving me different bits of advice on what I 'have' to have, along the lines of the 'I shouldn't install it without x/y/z'.

I've currently got a 14 year old Ariston Micro Genus 27mffi combi, which although EVERY plumber has said is cr@p, has worked fine for all that time and I've definitely got my money's worth. The issue seems to be not with the replacement condensing combi, but with the extras. Definitely getting a magnaclean of some description, so that's not an issue, but I've always quite happily controlled my old boiler with the dials on the boiler itself. So I know it's not going to balance and be thermostatic and lovely, it's either on or off, but that's suited me and the girlfriend fine.


So, both so far have quoted for Worcester.

First bloke said would I like a wired or rf controller, and personally I can't see the point in spending an extra £100 on something simply because it's in exactly the same place 2 foot away and wiring wouldn't be an issue anyway. But he gave me the choice.

Second bloke said I HAD to have one certain bit installed (can't get my head around which) so he said he was gonna quote for a Comfort II RF thermostat which would cover everything, but apart from efficiency and programmability, I couldn't see what was wrong with the good old fashioned mechanical timers?

Just not sure what I HAVE to have which my old boiler didn't seem to do perfectly fine anyway? Don't like gadgets at all, so this Worcester Wave rubbish was of no interest to me: see enough people fannying around with their heating on the train for when they get home for me to completely hold it in contempt: House is cold, put a jumper on, wait 10 minutes and it'll be warm, how difficult is that... or am I missing something?!

 

[PhoenixServices]

You need a timer and a room thermostat of some description (doesn't have to be fancy)
Plus thermostatic radiator valves on the radiators.

Those are what are needed for building regs compliance.
I lump a flush of the heating system in as a must.

For manufacturers warranty:
Magnet
Scale reducer if in hard water area.

 

[oz-plumber]

Yeah, you are missing something!!!

It's 2016.

Back in the seventies and earlier, when mechanical timers were new age it was fine - although something to be wary of.

Step forward 30 odd years and wired programmable thermostats were all the rage.
They were still something to be wary of, because the booklet that came with them, was directly translated from Japanese to English, by a Japanese person, who never spoke English as a second, third or fourth language.

As of today - stuff wifi. Just install a wired thermostat from the boiler to a suitable, close location.
You can either get a manual thermostat or a programmable thermostat.

For some comfort, wired thermostat are old school and ancient.

But then..so are some of us ....and we feel comfortable.

Hope this helps.

 

[Blackspaven]

OKay, thanks. Got trvs on all the rads, seems with Worcester it pushes up the warranty to get their stuff and it doesn't seem any more expensive than other stuff. Just spoke to technical at Worcester to get some clarity about their controls and the differences between models, and he said if you're just replacing an existing boiler you're not following building regs, you don't need to have a thermostat, it's just advisable to as it's more efficient. Sound about right?

 

[Blackspaven]

Would be happy with wired control thermostat but going for their own range increases warranty and (allegedly) efficiency, and they're more functionable for not much more money so will have to look at if it's worth it.

 

[PhoenixServices]

Thermostats and controls | Energy Saving Trust

 

[oz-plumber]

Sounds about right.

But boiler manufacturers will tell you anything to sell you their boiler.

 

[Blackspaven]

Yup, just had a look and bizarrely there's about £15 difference between the various controllers so might as well go with whatever gives the most. All the digital stuff is saying the same efficiency unless you go with weather compensation, but can't see that making a huge saving!

 

[oz-plumber]

Weather compensation.

The idea behind that is to reduce the temperature of the hot water from the boiler due to the outside temperature.

So, if the outdoor temperature was, say 15 C,m the boiler would only heat the water to, say,
50 C, instead if 75 C if the outdoor temp was 3 C.

Can save money on heating bills

 

[Blackspaven]

Does it make that big a saving, anything reeeealy noteworthy?

 

[oz-plumber]

Well, it would pay for itself within the first year of service.

Very simple product that doesn't usually need replacement over the life time of a boiler

 

[Chalked]

Your heating engineer will have to make sure there are thermostatic valves fitted and a timeclock/ thermostat is interlinked with the boiler.
He can't certify if with gas safe / building control, unless this is complied with. Wheat her you use it or not, is up to you.
If you want to keep it simple, use a boiler faicia mounted timer with a depressed room thermostat. ( hard wired, no batteries)
A better option is a programmable room thermostat. All in one timer and thermostat.

 

[jtsplumbing]

So is it a requirement in law to have all these controls fitted ? or just good practice ? what if (Like OP) they refuse to have these controls fitted, Do you walk away from the job, or just write on the bench mark book that customer refused to have recommended controls, To my way of thinking we cant force the customer to have something that they don't want, after all it is there money, we can only advise what they should have. Will it void any boilers warranty if they don't want any controls fitted ??

 

[GrahamM]

Crazy not to fit at very least a basic room thermostat and time-clock for the extra control it gives over your heating.

So is it a requirement in law to have all these controls fitted ? or just good practice ? what if (Like OP) they refuse to have these controls fitted, Do you walk away from the job, or just write on the bench mark book that customer refused to have recommended controls, To my way of thinking we cant force the customer to have something that they don't want, after all it is there money, we can only advise what they should have. Will it void any boilers warranty if they don't want any controls fitted ??

Just note down customer refused the energy advice for fitting of thermostat etc. and get them to sign.
Any customer that refuses at least the cheapest thermostat is a prize plumb!

 

[Blackspaven]

Got back to me saying all boilers have to have boiler interlock. But I have no idea what that is and/or what/how it relates to the controllers when he was showing me??

 

[Howsie]

You'd be mad not to fit weather compensation nowadays.

 

[plumben]

You'd be mad not to fit weather compensation nowadays.

I've never fitted one but most of the boilers I do are for landlords

 

[Howsie]

Say no more...

 

[kay-jay]

Got back to me saying all boilers have to have boiler interlock. But I have no idea what that is and/or what/how it relates to the controllers when he was showing me??

Don't buy controls. Keep your money in your pocket!
Is that what you want to hear op?

At the end of the day no one can force you to spend extra if you don't wish.
However you would be contravening the building regs and the advice of professionals.

The buildings regs police won't be beating down your door if you don't buy a new programmable thermostat however the risk is, that if you decline the advice of experts and they in turn decline the job, you may end up with a bit of a cowboy doing the installation the way you want it but the potential pitfalls of that significantly outweigh the extra cost of a few quid.

The choice is yours my friend.

 

[Blackspaven]

No, not what I was saying in the slightest, not sure how you've read that from that sentence??

I'm gonna be getting a controller of some sort, obviously, just don't know what boiler interlock is and how it relates to controllers. But thanks for the sarcastic strop... I was married to a northerner once, I forgot what it sounded like. I'm much happier now, thank you.

Perhaps someone out there does know what it is and can explain it sensibly?

EDIT: don't worry, I've just learnt about the boiler not working properly when you have a thermostat and every rad with a TRV, which was explained to me at the time but they just didn't expain it as boiler interlock, that's all. Strange, didn't think it would have been that hard to explain. Who knew?!

 

[kay-jay]

Cool story bro.

 

[Frelon]

Agree with Howsie, weather compensation should be a must have. Not much additional cost but well worth having.
Sadly not fitted in many cases to keep the overall cost down [emoji857][emoji857]

 

[townfanjon]

Another +one for the weather comp . I wouldnt be without it now

 

[jtsplumbing]

Agree with Howsie, weather compensation should be a must have. Not much additional cost but well worth having.
Sadly not fitted in many cases to keep the overall cost down [emoji857][emoji857]

Well that's the way of the world, customer wants first class job for third class price, we can only advise ! customers always wineing about price never want to spend on heating/water, think nothing about spending 20K + on a car or 3K on a holiday when it comes to new boiler they always think its a rip off, they want a boiler fitted for 1K and expect it to last 50 years,

 

[Blackspaven]

Customer also presumably wants to understand what it is they're actually paying for, if it's actually needed, and that they're not actually getting ripped off when you ask two different installers and between them black can be white depending on who you listen

Example in question: two installers came this week, one said the boiler was fine where it was, the other said it had to be moved as Worcester require a gap of 600mm from the front of the boiler to allow removal of the cage and for the engineer to work on it and mine only has 400 odd. By the book, the second guy was 100% correct, but when I asked the first guy he just said, 'ah, it'll be fine, there's more than enough space to work on it.' So if I go for the first guy and I have a problem after which Worcester send an engineer who says it's too close and it voids the warranty, then I should just accept that the first guy was a cheeky old so & so and just go about my way?? No, but I'm expected to trust the info given by plumbers/installers without questioning it!

Perhaps if people ALL did a first rate job, they wouldn't get questioned about what they're doing, and hear whining (note the spelling) about why the prices can vary so much!!

If you hate people so much, then change jobs!!

 

[jtsplumbing]

Customer also presumably wants to understand what it is they're actually paying for, if it's actually needed, and that they're not actually getting ripped off when you ask two different installers and between them black can be white depending on who you listen

Example in question: two installers came this week, one said the boiler was fine where it was, the other said it had to be moved as Worcester require a gap of 600mm from the front of the boiler to allow removal of the cage and for the engineer to work on it and mine only has 400 odd. By the book, the second guy was 100% correct, but when I asked the first guy he just said, 'ah, it'll be fine, there's more than enough space to work on it.' So if I go for the first guy and I have a problem after which Worcester send an engineer who says it's too close and it voids the warranty, then I should just accept that the first guy was a cheeky old so & so and just go about my way?? No, but I'm expected to trust the info given by plumbers/installers without questioning it!

Perhaps if people ALL did a first rate job, they wouldn't get questioned about what they're doing, and hear whining (note the spelling) about why the prices can vary so much!!

If you hate people so much, then change jobs!!

Lucky I scrolled down on to reply or I would have missed most of your reply ! Its difficult to comment on what you have been told (hearsay) you don't have to listen to what your being told or advised, Do your own research and make your own decision then you only have your self to blame if things are not right, do all the running around, purchase all the materials, call someone to fit it, and be there so you can tell them what to do, Regards to your comment on getting different prices, well all that depends on what each persons overheads are, if your not happy with what a small (Sole trader) is telling you then go for the larger company's, BG just to name one, Do I hate people ?? 'NO' just get a bit P off at times with customers like you, thankfully I don't come across all that meny , & I've been in this job for 40+ years, and worked for all classes of people from Mr average to Lords & Ladies, and unlike you they know what they want.

 

[Blackspaven]

Problem was I WASN'T being advised on one count and then had conflicting info on the other, hence asking a larger group of individuals on here, just didn't know when you did ask things, some people throw there toys out the pram! Fortunately.there HAVE been some very helpful individuals on here who have helped me back up thewhich bits of conflicting info I was actually told.

I know what I would like, and happy to pay the going rate for it, just not happy to be fobbed off or talked down to by alpha male cowboy plumbers who don't appear to want to pass on ALL the information. Don't worry, I wouldn't let suchlike do any work in my house. ;-)

 

[Blackspaven]

To the non-idiotic egomaniacs and other less illiterate individuals on here, thanks for the heads up on the weather compensation controllers, I'll have a look into them. Surprisingly, not one person who quoted for the job suggested them, with one even just texting ":nono:" when I asked them they're opinion of them!

It's the way of the world, I guess

 

[jtsplumbing]

Problem was I WASN'T being advised on one count and then had conflicting info on the other, hence asking a larger group of individuals on here, just didn't know when you did ask things, some people throw there toys out the pram! Fortunately.there HAVE been some very helpful individuals on here who have helped me back up thewhich bits of conflicting info I was actually told.

I know what I would like, and happy to pay the going rate for it, just not happy to be fobbed off or talked down to by alpha male cowboy plumbers who don't appear to want to pass on ALL the information. Don't worry, I wouldn't let suchlike do any work in my house. ;-)

There is some information we are not allowed to pass on to non Gas Safe people (Like you) as it is against forum rules, as you are aware there are Stupid people who think that messing around with gas is ok, & for all we know you could be one of them !
If you would like to know the secret's of the inner chamber then all you have to do is become as Registered gas engineer

 

[Blackspaven]

Inner chamber, lol. Fair play.

No, in MY job, I come across idiots who have messed with their own gas & electricity in the guise of diy quite a bit, so I completely understand that it's not something to 'have a go' with and would never try, I said as much on another thread.
I'm happy for whoever with whatever the right qualifications are to do the work for me, and at a reasonable price (even usually tip workmen if it's a good job), but BECAUSE at times it can all be a strange language (as with any technical job, mine included), sometimes there are a few things that just need explaining so one can appreciate what you need, what you're getting, and that the person giving it to you is along the same lines as the customer in terms of what the end goal is. Nothing in this thread that's overly difficult, just after a little clarity with some heating terms, practicalities and parts.

All I was struggling with at the start was something one of the installers said but didn't describe very well when asked... and who likes to ask someone the same question three or four times without getting a little awkwards?!

Every person on here knows that some people sell by baffling with science... and sometimes that science ain't too... scientific!

 

[Blackspaven]

To the non-idiotic egomaniacs and other less illiterate individuals on here, thanks for the heads up on the weather compensation controllers, I'll have a look into them. Surprisingly, not one person who quoted for the job suggested them, with one even just texting ":nono:" when I asked them they're opinion of them!

It's the way of the world, I guess

Sorry, I did put a star in the word to avoid it being rude, but fyi, the plumber who didn't like the weather compensation devices said it was a four letter word that comes out one's bottom and rhymes with Brit.

 

[Dotty]

Sorry, I did put a star in the word to avoid it being rude, but fyi, the plumber who didn't like the weather compensation devices said it was a four letter word that comes out one's bottom and rhymes with Brit.

That's as may be. It still contravened the forum rules which you are stretching with this last post.

Please refrain from doing so.

 

[Blackspaven]

Will do chief. Just giving a direct quote so hard to do other than what he said, not my own personal opinion. But noted.

 

[Jay The Plumber]

To the non-idiotic egomaniacs and other less illiterate individuals on here

that's the way to win us over.

 

[Blackspaven]

Us?? Boys club all of a sudden?