ASHP or MAINS GAS?

[Jimbob]

Have you got a heat meter to see what you're actually producing?

Definitely starts adding up when comparing to oil I must admit.

 

[eaton]

No don't see need for it, end of day you just want to know run cost. I can work out cop at any time using a calc

 

[Jimbob]

Worth looking at though, we've got a Panasonic setup with meters and heat meters, give a better indication of how efficient it is rather than just averaging with a COP factor. And it could be that you may require a heat meter to get any future RHI payments

 

[eaton]

I offered mcs to send me one they said no! Said ok sod you then

 

[peteheat]

My advice to the OP is insulate very well forget todays regulations and double up if possible, draught proofing, good quality windows screen doors etc.

Top quality heating controls especially for UFH, preferably a thermostat in every room back to a manifold as your heating control centre.

Now you have a foundation for the future, today you fit a quality gas boiler, however you leave the pipes in place to fit your heat pump to so the installation cost is not crazy.

From my experience the majority of failures with heat pumps are caused by salesmen who don't understand their product or construction in general so they sold them as a "one solution suits all".

The new way of thinking should be future proofing our homes, from what I can see there is no free heating system coming along in the near future and our traditional fuels (even wood) are getting more expensive be it gamblers on the stock exchanges, political turmoil or the fact that as gas and oil get more expensive homeowners just won't be able to afford them.

 

[Howsie]

An air-source heat pump is a good choice. Yes it is a more expensive little bit but well worth.

Cricket and rice?

 

[Steve Williams]

Thanks to everyone who responded! We opted for a gas boiler with a solar thermal. UFH downstairs, rads upstairs. Very effective.

 

[Phil_Plumb]

excellent choice, the solar thermal will heat up the water in the cylinder by x amount of degrees C that the required energy from the boiler will be less to heat up the cylinder to the correct temp.

Saving gas and saving energy using a tried and trusted tech!

That being said, if gas keeps going the way it is, my boiler will be coming out and all 3 out of 4 fireplaces will be opened up (frontroom already done) i will put in a back boiler with pump to an indirect cylinder to provide my HW via a 3 port valve for the rads.

have a plentiful supply of free logs anyway!

 

[Steve Williams]

Oh and a woodburner in the front lounge and a rainwater harvester for toilets and washing machine to up our Eco-credentials, the water tank only went in in May do is now nearly empty, doh!

 

[Dickie]

Not having read all the posts, but a good few. None of you so called ASHP experts have mentioned the COP of these units!! Also, if you had any small insight as to how refrigeration actually works you'd know that volume circulation is required for the optimum output & efficiency, so LLHs are not worth fitting, a buffer tank is always required.

A ASHP would never be as cheap to run as a modulating Nat Gas condensing boiler. OP don't listen to the ex-used car salesmen, it's all mince they talk.

 

[eaton]

Shows how much you know! You don't need buffers or llh on most systems! I've fortunately got a few units that have over 12 months worth of running costs and they're all smashing the oil running costs! Mine at home is actually running my 4 bed detached 1970s house cheaper than I ran my old 1995 3 bed semi on natural gas, afraid you can't argue with figures.

 

[eaton]

Also never sold a car in my life, left school at 16 and did 5 year apprentice inc city and guilds, shame not many bother nowadays. Just like the story I've heard of a biomass quote on a 3 bed insulated semi detached 21kw! More like 6-10kw max. The sharks will be swimming now the rhi is out. Also turned down 2 ashp vs gas this week as it just wouldn't pay. Got one as they want one full stop and have pv so each to their own I suppose.

 

[Reg Man]

Shows how much you know! You don't need buffers or llh on most systems! I've fortunately got a few units that have over 12 months worth of running costs and they're all smashing the oil running costs! Mine at home is actually running my 4 bed detached 1970s house cheaper than I ran my old 1995 3 bed semi on natural gas, afraid you can't argue with figures.

Me to! 4bed 1960's house on ASHP Total utility bill cheaper than total N gas and electric bill on previous smaller 4 bed 1990's timber framed house. Figures speak for them self. I was at first very sceptical about ASHP, but I can't knock it having lived with it for two years.

 

[Dickie]

But any figures you chaps are giving are for the running costs of installations of ASHPs. You don't know the running cost of the same property with a HE modulating gas boiler, or a correctly installed system with a ASHP - including a buffer tank.

There's no way a ASHP, even an inverting CO2 one, would touch a Nat Gas modulating boiler. Blue Flame Rules!! Get over it Greenwashers & tree huggers!!
LOL!!

 

[Reg Man]

But any figures you chaps are giving are for the running costs of installations of ASHPs. You don't know the running cost of the same property with a HE modulating gas boiler, or a correctly installed system with a ASHP - including a buffer tank.

There's no way a ASHP, even an inverting CO2 one, would touch a Nat Gas modulating boiler. Blue Flame Rules!! Get over it Greenwashers & tree huggers!!
LOL!!

Only know that my last house had full NAT gas HE system boiler with all controls including separate zones for upstairs/downstairs, optimiser the lot and my utility bills are now cheaper in a larger property with less insulation factors with an ASHP. I do admit that they are less convenient to use than a gas boiler, but I am pleasantly surprised by its efficiency, My only other option is OIL or LPG, so happy days for the ASHP.

 

[Dickie]

Will you still be singing the praises of your ASHP when it hit -14degC next Winter Reg old son?? When your HP has a COP of -3 & your gaffe is freezing cold?
Come back & bum your load then.

 

[CES]

I see the misinformation squad are in tonight then...

 

[Dickie]

I see the misinformation squad are in tonight then...

Reading this thread mate, they've been in here for days!

 

[Reg Man]

It worked fine all last winter with 3 weeks of snow on the ground.

 

[Dickie]

It worked fine all last winter with 3 weeks of snow on the ground.

Do you know perchance what these weeks costs you in Leccy Reg??

 

[Dickie]

Also never sold a car in my life, left school at 16 and did 5 year apprentice inc city and guilds, shame not many bother nowadays. Just like the story I've heard of a biomass quote on a 3 bed insulated semi detached 21kw! More like 6-10kw max. The sharks will be swimming now the rhi is out. Also turned down 2 ashp vs gas this week as it just wouldn't pay. Got one as they want one full stop and have pv so each to their own I suppose.

I'm pleased to hear it mate in every regard.

 

[Reg Man]

Can't give you figures for the cold weeks but total electric for the year £1,400. Thinking of investing in some PV panels, think I can get about 20 panels on the south elevation of my roof, also have a wood burner and unlimited supply of logs in my woods.

 

[eaton]

Can't give you figures for the cold weeks but total electric for the year £1,400. Thinking of investing in some PV panels, think I can get about 20 panels on the south elevation of my roof, also have a wood burner and unlimited supply of logs in my woods.

Only put mine in in mid march but as I said I'm logging daily so have accurate data for 3 weeks of snow and following month of very cold weather, 3 weeks with snow cost £76 April was £74, may £39, June £15.97 so far this month £4.43 If anyone goes to my Facebook page I keep updated graphs posted on there, Id expect a cost of £3-4 per day in severe cold weather from what I've seen. And I'm on course for bettering running cost than I did in last house which was newer, smaller and on ng

 

[SafeGasInstall]

are you trying to tell me that gas boilers are totally silent if so why does my old worcester combi wake me up at night when the pump kicks in for no reason, at least with a heat pump they are outside and the noise is barely audible even when standing next to them

you should know .....you are a plumber lol

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I would like to tank all for your input here its been interesting to read .... please give more information about a ASHP as what is so much to know about there installation ? I have never worked on one just been to a property where Mick aka "unguided" (was a member here ) worked and he showed me the installation and we had a cup of coffee and a good 3h of chat about them ! Did not see any rocket science there tbh .....
I just would love to receive more info about ASHP , and if you have one installed somewhere or you are in progress doing it I would love to come along and take part of the install (for free) ! I am to book my self with WB for there 3 days training for the ASHP but would love to see it in action before I go there

Good postes there Dickies

 

[Dickie]

Can't give you figures for the cold weeks but total electric for the year £1,400. Thinking of investing in some PV panels, think I can get about 20 panels on the south elevation of my roof, also have a wood burner and unlimited supply of logs in my woods.

Thats very good home running costs Reg mate. Careful with PV panels, there's loads of Sharks selling them. Also, your return on investment will deminish as any of these panels get older, they just don't produce the same power as when they're new. The technoligy has not been around long enough to prove what they'll do in 20-25 years, so don't listen to the Greenwash BS!!

 

[Reg Man]

That's why I've held off getting PV sooner. Thought if I wait around a bit, the quality and effectiveness of them will be proven and the price may come down a bit yet. One of my Pals had 16 put in 2 years ago and he is well happy with the saving and returns. He worked out it was better than having the cash sit in a savings account even if the capital is a right off in 20 years time.

 

[Dickie]

I would like to tank all for your input here its been interesting to read .... please give more information about a ASHP as what is so much to know about there installation ? I have never worked on one just been to a property where Mick aka "unguided" (was a member here ) worked and he showed me the installation and we had a cup of coffee and a good 3h of chat about them ! Did not see any rocket science there tbh .....
I just would love to receive more info about ASHP , and if you have one installed somewhere or you are in progress doing it I would love to come along and take part of the install (for free) ! I am to book my self with WB for there 3 days training for the ASHP but would love to see it in action before I go there

Good postes there Dickies

Ive been in the heating game all my working life & never before have I seen so much drivel written about a product than ASHPs. I'm not saying installers are to blame for this, on the contrary, it's the Greenwash Ex-used car sales men that pollute the industry, they get right up my nose. Technically they know nothing & talk complete

We live in a very cold climate, so the COP of a unit at anything down to -14degC is very, very important. Traditionally, C/heating systems are designed for the coldest days. But not with HPs!! So you'll always need to suppliment your HP with another form of heating. Ask yourself why that is? Easy answer: very few ASHPs are designed for our cold damp climate.

My advice to anyone with only Oil or LPG as a fuel source; fit a big off Multi Fuel stove, something that'll burn anything you throw into it. If you have your heart set on an ASHP for the cooler evenings or temperatures of no lower than 8degC, buy a invertor split unit, buy two even!! Stick the indoor unit up on the wall & you can blast over 3KW of heat into your home just plugged into your ring main. Cheap as chips to buy & you're talking about a COP of around 3.5-4.
Of course it goes without saying, INSULATE!!!

 

[Dickie]

That's why I've held off getting PV sooner. Thought if I wait around a bit, the quality and effectiveness of them will be proven and the price may come down a bit yet. One of my Pals had 16 put in 2 years ago and he is well happy with the saving and returns. He worked out it was better than having the cash sit in a savings account even if the capital is a right off in 20 years time.

What happens to your pal's investment when the panels are producing Jack in five years time?? Has he still got the Warranty for the panels that our Chinese friends manufactured & a crack legal team in China to drag them through the courts over there???!! Tell him from me, good luck with that!!

Most Chinese heat pumps are only a 'screwdriver job' in China, with lots of Yanky & Jap components.

 

[Reg Man]

What happens to your pal's investment when the panels are producing Jack Sh.t in five years time?? Has he still got the Warranty for the panels that our Chinese friends manufactured & a crack legal team in China to drag them through the courts over there???!! Tell him from me, good luck with that!!

Most Chinese heat pumps are only a 'screwdriver job' in China, with lots of Yanky & Jap components.

Time will tell

 

[Reg Man]

Quote>never before have I seen so much drivel written about a product than ASHPs.<Quote Anything in particular?

 

[eaton]

My unit coped very well at minus 5 in march, flow temp of 59c costing £4-5 per day. 21c inside, happy days, no back up needed or installed

 

[Groundheat]

Air to water units Can't compete with mains gas, all manufacturers will confirm this. They will however sell you a hybrid but this would never give you a payback. The hybrid takes the fuel prices and automatically chooses which to use . We have found that for the amount of time the air to water would be used for during mild winter weather it wouldn't save you enough money on your mains gas bill to justify having one fitted.They say sizing is most important, by this they mean insulation, if you first spend on insulation then this too would dramatically reduce your gas boiler run cost or oil cost.To save such a small amount it's not worth it, the average RHI domestic on an air to water would be around £500/year for seven years so the £3,500 would pay for the installation and once the seven years has gone you're back to paying higher bills because you can't offset them against your RHI income.

 

[Reg Man]

I think that the answer to the first question is a natural gas boiler. but if you are not on mains gas and the condition are suitable an ASHP is a good alternative above LPG or Oil.

 

[Dickie]

Reg, not being on mains gas generally means you're in a rural area of the country, so a multi-fuel stove that'll burn anything may be the answer. As I said; if you want a ASHP then I recommend wall mounted small split invertor units, cheap to buy & easy to install.

 

[Jimbob]

Had any experience with the inverter driven dimplex units dickie? Same as panasonics apparently. I'm thinking if using them for a couple jobs as price isn't bad!

 

[Dickie]

Sorry jimbob no not one I've seen. I guess it's all down to the components.
Panisonic is good gear, but the Yanks are better than the Japs when it comes to AC in my view.
HTH

 

[turbotorch]

Would one of these air source heat pumps be efficient with the overlay type of underfloor heating or is it best to run it with more traditional in screed type? Property was built early seventies so i imagine no insulation under screed. I dont want to dig the floor up really, so i suppose its a choice between the overlay and rads.

 

[Ermintrude]

Would one of these air source heat pumps be efficient with the overlay type of underfloor heating or is it best to run it with more traditional in screed type? Property was built early seventies so i imagine no insulation under screed. I dont want to dig the floor up really, so i suppose its a choice between the overlay and rads.

U can use space blanket ££££££ but ufh always recommend a min screed of 65mm.

 

[Dickie]

Would one of these air source heat pumps be efficient with the overlay type of underfloor heating or is it best to run it with more traditional in screed type? Property was built early seventies so i imagine no insulation under screed. I dont want to dig the floor up really, so i suppose its a choice between the overlay and rads.

The heatloss through the floor can be minimal, well, when there's quite a steady geothermal temperature that may explain why. Check out castellated insulation boards, they can be quite cheap & many you can just fit a chipboard floating floor over. Not ideal, but if you beef up the insulation in the walls & roof, it could be an option. Regardless, if fitting any ASHP I'd recommend some form of inexpensive supplementary heat; Multi-fuel stove.

 

[Groundheat]

Would one of these air source heat pumps be efficient with the overlay type of underfloor heating or is it best to run it with more traditional in screed type? Property was built early seventies so i imagine no insulation under screed. I dont want to dig the floor up really, so i suppose its a choice between the overlay and rads.

Hi , we have been fitting overlay for around six years now, it's one of our best systems, the output is around 90w/sqm with a run temp of 45deg. Most suspended floor systems require 50-60deg which is too high for ASHPs , the problems we face with ASHPs is that when it's below freezing outside the ASHPs output drops so the higher temps are expensive to attain.
The heat up time is quicker than solid screed but the cooling down is quicker.
The ASHPs in temps below 0deg will go into defrost quite a lot. When this happens the ASHP stops supplying the under floor and reverses the hot water from the heating system around the evapourator to de frost it. This can take ten minuets so not only is the heating down for ten minuets it also robs your house of heat, once the ASHP re starts to heat then it will take 15mins or so to reach the temperatures it had before going into de frost, so the ASHP may only be heating for 35-40minuets in the hour. Not the sort of thing the manufacturers mention a lot although they now recommend fitting a buffer to overcome this.

 

[Dickie]

Helpful & informative as always mate & I can only agree 100%.

 

[turbotorch]

The general consensus is that an ASHP will work best with underfloor heating hence me thinking abut the overlay system, but i was worried about the thickness of the insulation. Those boards i looked at are only 20mm compared to the usual 50-75mm or whatever it is, dont want to fit it if its gonna cost a fortune to run. I have thought about maybe fitting rads and some insulation boards for the floor.

Its only a 2 bed bungalow, well insulated roof and cavity wall insulation, small garden though so definitely no room for oil tank or lpg, i would have had gas in a heartbeat if it was available.

I had thought about a wood burner, but i dont think logs are that cheap atm, and there is no chimney, so i think a flue in the living room woud look a bit naff.

Groundheat you talk about them perfoming badly below freezing, but eaton and a couple of others have posted positive results from their ASHP. Seems to be alot of conflicting info about this tech.

 

[Ermintrude]

Don't install cheap crap. The PV cells do have issues with dielectric and power drop off but that's because they are manufactured to within 0.0000000005mm tolerance in someone's shed in ahi zen.

Solar thermal is well proven and when done correctly will out last 15 year warranty.

Mitsubishi ashp tend to out perform. Bit like saying combi won't ever work........ Because all u seen is a fer falcon!

 

[Jimbob]

Wouldn't say they would perform badly. But it is a limitation in the technology currently. The COP and output really begins to drop off in freezing temperatures. Which means it really begins to lose efficiency when you most need it. Hence why a decent auxiliary system would be preferable.

 

[Scotsplum]

Hi Guys ASHP vs Gas at present ASHP is an expensive option even with the grant, for UFH gas really is not an option unless you run the boiler at a lower temperature (unless you like dancing over floors as the floor will be hotter) but efficiency will then be rubbish. GSHP could be an option but again the installation costs could be bad. I am looking at other options one being the Newish Thermodynamic panel System (not sure if it qualifies for any RHI grant though because it works even at night but at present only for hot water).

 

[Howsie]

Heat source will not affect the temp of the UFH IMHO. Gas and UFH work well.

 

[Ermintrude]

Blending valve controls temp of floor. U can have the flow into ufh at 100c if u wish and blending valve will keep floor temp within specified range.

 

[Worcester]

Even with the RHI, ASHP's don't stack up against Nat gas.
Our advice to everyone is Insulate, Insulate, Insulate.
For an ASHP to get a CoP of >3 you need to run either ufh or rads at less than 45°, to run rads at that temp you need them to be sized 3x larger than normally required.
The gudelines on sizing heatpumps and emitters is both clear and comprehensive - you can download it all from the MCS website.
When you add in the costs of ugrading the rads it will never add up against Nat Gas, we are struggling to make a financial benefit to clients even when that are on oil.
For oil, the most sensible Green option is a Biomass boiler.
The RHI payments are open to anyone on or off gas grid - there are no restrictions, however they have been set at a level such that an effcient Nat Gas boiler will be the cheapest option, DECC are desparate to avoid a green rush away from gas, hence the payments are designed to make OFF gas grid people CONSIDER a green alternative when their boiler needs replacing, not as a wholesale green update. - They've learned from over generous PV FiT payments!
Also see this paper why buffer stores are essential on any form of heat pump (I now it relates to biomass, the same principle on sizing applies though)
ctc810-insights-into-biomass-heat-installations.pdf
Net effect you'll put an ASHP in to a on-grid property because you want to... however you need a CoP of much > 2.5 to really be greener than nat gas...
See here for the deemed CoP's at various output temps: http://www.microgenerationcertifica...y_Information_2_-_Heat_Emitter_Guide_v2.0.pdf
See this for the actual EST field trial results of ASHP's as installed : [DLMURL]http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/content/download/80377/973482/version/2/file/The+Heat+is+On+web.pdf[/DLMURL]

 

[Easy]

well ive got a 14kw ecodan unit coupled with 4kw of pv and its fekking wonderful,,,,replaced it 2yrs ago from an oil boiler system and it heats my 6 bed chalet bungalow and the water very nicely