problem with heated towel rails

[stakhanov]

First, I'm new here so this question may be in the wrong forum if so please feel free to move it to where it is most appropriate.

I have recently had a new bathroom fitted and amongst everything else I've had 2 towel rads fitted. They are plumbed in but also have summer elements fitted.

When they were first fitted the plumber's "electrician" had wired them up incorrectly so that when I switched on the power to the summer elements it caused the whole house heating system to come on. But the rads did warm up and in general use the rads came on (perhaps a little slugglishly) with the main central heating.

The plumber and has "electrician" came back last week to rewire the elements and to regrout the shower for the third time, which was leaking to such an extent that water was flowing through the light fitting in the kitchen below. Bear in mind that I've waited from late August till early December for this visit and have not been able to use the shower in the mean time.

Anyway the shower does not leak now, at least after one shower. And the summer elements work when switched on. ... you can hear the BUT coming...

BUT

Now neither of the towel rads come on with the main central heating. The plumber has basically said he doesn't want to know, as he merely fitted the rads that I supplied.

First, are there any basic checks I can do or tips to try to get the rads to work. It seems unlikely that any pipe work got changed in his recent visit.

Otherwise is there somewhere I can go to engage an independent expert to look at the work that has been done to asses whether it has been done to a proper standard. To be honest I have lost any confidence in the plumber that did the work. (found through Check-a-trade) I have not even begun to catalogue the other problems...

Any help or advice much appreciated

 

[justlead1]

Hi. Check that the valves fitted to towel rail/pipe work are open (remove any shield and turn anti clock wise) also find air valve at top of towel rail and using key undo and check for air, when air stops and water is being discharged turn off. Good Luck

 

[stakhanov]

Thanks, I've tried both suggestions. 3 times for luck.
I've also tried shutting off as many radiators in the house as possible to try to encourage some water through.
I notice that since the work has been done there is much more air in the system. I am needing to bleed 1 rad at least once per week.

 

[jberry]

hi,
seems quite a lot of air in your system, hope ime not teaching granny to suck eggs, is your pump off whilst you are bleeding your rads?

 

[newbie1]

you need to get a reliable plumber in to check work ime afraid

 

[so-solar]

the towel radiators are on the dhw i take it?

 

[stakhanov]

hi,
seems quite a lot of air in your system, hope ime not teaching granny to suck eggs, is your pump off whilst you are bleeding your rads?

Anything I learn here will be new, assume I know NOTHING about plumbing, but am fairly logical about solving problems and am very patient about resolving them...
I'm guessing from your reply that I should bleed the rads when the pump is off. I didn't know that so it may have been on, don't know. Will try with it definitely off.

Thanks for your input.

you need to get a reliable plumber in to check work ime afraid

Yes, That's what I thought I said.

What I'm after is someone who might be regarded as an independent professional. Like a chartered surveyor for plumbing/heating. Any clues much appreciated.

you need to get a reliable plumber in to check work ime afraid

Yes, That's what I thought I said.

What I'm after is someone who might be regarded as an independent professional. Like a chartered surveyor for plumbing/heating. Any clues much appreciated.

the towel radiators are on the dhw i take it?

If dhw means domestic hot water, then, no. The rads are on the central heating circuit, so they are on when the central heating is on, I thought I said that. That's why they have the summer heating elements.

Otherwise what does dhw mean and I can give an answer.

Thanks for your input.

 

[WHPES]

Look for a well established plumber in your area to assess the job. "so and so and sons". Don't just go for those with flashy ads - many established plumbers get so much work from word of mouth that they hardly need to advertise.

When you say "regrout the shower for the third time" that would set my alarm bells ringing - I can only assume their grout is old or has got frosted and so has not cured. Is that what has happened? The only leaks I might ever expect (and even then in only a very occasional job) would be some water getting around the bottom of the shower door, never from the tiles or tray edges.

If the electrician is reputable, he should have left you with a small works completion certificate (a legal requirement) for the modification to the circuit for the summer elements.

 

[stevetheplumber]

sounds to me that the elements are in wrong and stopping the flow of water

 

[stakhanov]

sounds to me that the elements are in wrong and stopping the flow of water

I thought that too, but, the rads have been working since about August, coming on with the central heating as expected. They have only stopped since the visit to rewire the switch. Seems unlikely to be a coincidence. That's sort of why I've been asking if there is an independent inspectorate of such things.

The guys who did the work seem to think I'm making it up, but that would be just stupid. This job has been going on since April and all I'm trying to do is get it working correctly with minimum hassle.

Look for a well established plumber in your area to assess the job. "so and so and sons". Don't just go for those with flashy ads - many established plumbers get so much work from word of mouth that they hardly need to advertise.

When you say "regrout the shower for the third time" that would set my alarm bells ringing - I can only assume their grout is old or has got frosted and so has not cured. Is that what has happened? The only leaks I might ever expect (and even then in only a very occasional job) would be some water getting around the bottom of the shower door, never from the tiles or tray edges.

If the electrician is reputable, he should have left you with a small works completion certificate (a legal requirement) for the modification to the circuit for the summer elements.

Thanks, I will check about the completion certificate. I must admit I don't remember such a thing, if I don't have it I will request it.

 

[justlead1]

Hi. Why not contact the Institute of Plumbing. They will have a register and will find you a Member of the institute in your area. The member title can not be brought, its earn't through academic and practical means. They should have the knowledge to survey and set you in the right direction. Good Luck

 

[bobpape]

Hi Stackenov

I did not notice if you stated what kind of boiler you have, but if it is a combi then you are experiencing one of their many draw backs,

A conventional system is piped so as the towel rails are supplied with warm water with
the heating on or off (providing the controls give hot water priority).

As for the "air" in the system..

It probably is not air but is gas given off by the reaction of oxygen in the water coming into contact with the bare steel internal surface of the radiators,

If you fill a system with uninhibited water you can expect
this to happen,

The fact that a Combi system is more difficult to introduce an rust inhibitor into is simply one of the multitude of drawbacks associated with them.

 

[stakhanov]

System is Oil fired conventional system. At least one of the towel rads was pretty much a direct replacement for a standard rad that was in the old bathroom...

no idea how the second one was plumbed.

What's the chemical reaction that causes this gas (what's the gas)?

 

[bobpape]

The gas is hydrogen
It is produced when fresh oxygenated water is introduced into the system, it takes around 3 months for the water to become inert, the black sludge in CH systems is
oxidised metal (rust).
Thats why it is best to use a rust inhibitor.

 

[so-solar]

Hi stakanhov!

Please can you explain to me what these summer elements are? and how turning them on bought your whole heating system on?

 

[stakhanov]

Hi stakanhov!

Please can you explain to me what these summer elements are? and how turning them on bought your whole heating system on?

the heating elements are similar to this 150w Dual Fuel Heating Element for Towel Rails - Unkown available at Plumbworld

almost certainly not this one, I'll have to check the specs when I get home. The second part of your question is very pertinent but not one I can answer.

I am a completely unqualified customer with a physics A level from 30 years ago . It appeared to me that the 'electrician' had run a power feed from the junction box where all the central heating controls are. When I saw how he had run the cable the words "mickey boy mouse and cow" sprang to mind (but not in that order)

The gas is hydrogen
It is produced when fresh oxygenated water is introduced into the system, it takes around 3 months for the water to become inert, the black sludge in CH systems is
oxidised metal (rust).
Thats why it is best to use a rust inhibitor.

Thanks for that bobpape. When I commission these works I did specifically request and pay for the central heating system to be given a suitable dose of inhibitor. Do you think it's possible that this step was missed?

 

[bobpape]

You could test for hydrogen by attempting to ignite the gas (or air) that comes out
when you bleed a rad,

Probably not advised by GSR.

You can of course smell it.

I doubt this would be conclusive proof in a court of law but is a good indicator

 

[Renewable M]

If they can't get a shower cubicle sealed up, I cannot imagine how they will ever fault find central heating.

Where is the element in the towel rail? Do you have 2 pipes connected for the heating? was it working before on the element or the heating? Is there a way of knowing?

 

[garethcnmjones]

look for the manual if you have it...

It can fix these things better than us...

 

[PlumbBobBob]

hey mate this thread is 18 months old probably sorted by now.