is this quote fair? central heating upgrade

[Riley]

I find alphas cheap and nasty if you’re looking storage combi then Vaillant Glowworm Viessmann

 

[Millsy 82]

But you will likely be hacked off and embarrassed if you have visitors and you have to say one at a time for the shower even though you have two. That’s what’s daft to me having two showers that you can’t use together. You might as well turn one bathroom into a walk in cupboard or something

If you would get embarrassed by saying dont take 2 showers at the same time then I think you need to live a little.

Or have 1 electric shower 1 mixer. Problem solved as long as you have the flow rate on the cold.

 

[Millsy 82]

Serious question: On a modern UV cylinder, how long does the water keep hot?

I would NEVER recommend fitting the wrong boiler to the house. The OP says they are stopping there for ever. Life is rarely that simple.

If you take no water out of the tank so introduce no cold what so ever then they reckon it's a couple of degrees loss a day. However as soon as you start to introduce cold water that loss becomes a lot greater.

But you would force someone to have what you want them to have even though a combi boiler would be ample for their needs and what they would like just because of the size of the house and because when they sell the house which they have no plans to do it then the next people have a system that may suit their needs.

What would you say if a customer wanted to remove the only bath in a property? No you cant do that the next people to buy your house might need a bath so you shouldn't remove it or would you say no problems have that out in a minute.

 

[firemant]

If you take no water out of the tank so introduce no cold what so ever then they reckon it's a couple of degrees loss a day. However as soon as you start to introduce cold water that loss becomes a lot greater.

Thanks

But you would force someone to have what you want them to have even though .........

I wouldn't try to fore anyone to do anything - I don't think I even implied as much. However, as the invited proffessional, it is expected that you offer advice. Sometimes the punter takes the advice, sometimes not. Ultimately, provided it is safe and legal, I would follow the instructions provided by the punter. But I am a great beleiver in paperwork, and my quotation would make mention somewhere that the quotation offered is for work specified, as opposed to recommended.

As for removing the only bath to fit a shower, unless personal circumstance dictates neccesity, then it is nuts. IMO.

 

[Millsy 82]

I wouldn't try to fore anyone to do anything - I don't think I even implied as much. However, as the invited proffessional, it is expected that you offer advice. Sometimes the punter takes the advice, sometimes not. Ultimately, provided it is safe and legal, I would follow the instructions provided by the punter. But I am a great beleiver in paperwork, and my quotation would make mention somewhere that the quotation offered is for work specified, as opposed to recommended.

As for removing the only bath to fit a shower, unless personal circumstance dictates neccesity, then it is nuts. IMO.

So what you would do is explain the pros and cons of both systems and that a combi boiler would easily cover the hot water usage of 2 people and let them decide?

So pretty much exactly what I said yet you disagreed with me then said you would NEVER recommend the wrong boiler to the HOUSE. How much water does a house use?

 

[Riley]

If you would get embarrassed by saying dont take 2 showers at the same time then I think you need to live a little.

Or have 1 electric shower 1 mixer. Problem solved as long as you have the flow rate on the cold.

Not a case of living a little and we will obviously agree to disagree but I think the whole purpose of two bathrooms is to have the option to use them simultaneously. Otherwise you might as well have one bathroom. I agree the electric shower option is a suggestion but surely you come across people who get an idea in mind and want to stick rigidly to it. These are the ones I won’t involve myself with because they are ultimately the ones that will moan afterwards or bad mouth you for doing the wrong thing even if it’s exactly what they asked for.

 

[firemant]

So what you would do is explain the pros and cons of both systems and that a combi boiler would easily cover the hot water usage of 2 people and let them decide?

So pretty much exactly what I said yet you disagreed with me then said you would NEVER recommend the wrong boiler to the HOUSE. How much water does a house use?

It wasted 10 minutes of my life, bit I eventually found where I disagreed with you:

Not for 2 people though. Surely the system should be designed for the proposed usage.

Which is a bit different to what you are now saying.

And |i still disagree with you, on that specific point

 

[Millsy 82]

It wasted 10 minutes of my life, bit I eventually found where I disagreed with you:



Which is a bit different to what you are now saying.

And |i still disagree with you, on that specific point

So you disagree that a combi wouldnt be suitable for a house with 2 people in it? Well loads of couples have them fitted in houses that they wont cope then even though they cope just fine. Best start ripping them all out and chucking unvented systems in then.

 

[firemant]

So you disagree that a combi wouldnt be suitable for a house with 2 people in it? Well loads of couples have them fitted in houses that they wont cope then even though they cope just fine. Best start ripping them all out and chucking unvented systems in then.

Probably the end of the road for this, once you run out of arguments annd start talking like a child.

 

[Riley]

Look it’s what each individual does. Make the best recommendation for the property. I win more jobs than I lose on this basis.

 

[Millsy 82]

Probably the end of the road for this, once you run out of arguments annd start talking like a child.

My point isnt talking like a child because If two people cant cope with using a combi then the country is screwed because there must be 10's of thousands if not 100's of couples that have combi boilers.

But obviously all customers with 2 bathrooms have exactly the same hot water requirements. So let's just ignore them and do what the hell we want to.

 

[Ben-gee]

As for removing the only bath to fit a shower, unless personal circumstance dictates neccesity, then it is nuts. IMO.

In my experience this is now considered an out of date opinion.

Not really relevant to the discussion, sorry, but just chipping in!

 

[Riley]

In my experience this is now considered an out of date opinion.

Not really relevant to the discussion, sorry, but just chipping in!

I disagree if it’s a family home people with kids want a bath

 

[Dannyk]

If I've missed it sorry, but nobody seems to have mentioned that you can have an immersion heater with a cylinder.
Having had two boiler failures, a programmer and a meter regulator fail the back up has been useful.

 

[Riley]

I think many of us have suggested the non combi route mate

 

[Millsy 82]

I disagree if it’s a family home people with kids want a bath

If your doing a house up with the intention of selling then do what is best for the house if there is no intention of selling the do what the customer wants.

I have loads of customers that have had the baths ripped out and trays put in its personal preference and if the next person to buy the house wants a bath an unvented cylinder etc then that is up to them to sort.

 

[Riley]

If your doing a house up with the intention of selling then do what is best for the house if there is no intention of selling the do what the customer wants.

I have loads of customers that have had the baths ripped out and trays put in its personal preference and if the next person to buy the house wants a bath an unvented cylinder etc then that is up to them to sort.

I agree with the sentiment mate. As you say it’s down to the customer. Completely get that. I’m all about communication with my customers so I’ll be honest with them if they still want to proceed and I am completely anti then I will suggest they get a couple more quotes

 

[Riley]

Problem is you’ll always find someone to fit something no matter how wrong it is. There is a difference with conversation and miss-selling I speak to so many customers where their “plumber” has said such and such will work brilliantly

 

[gmartine]

What about the WB 550, if it really can produce 20L/m g given the right supply and conditions it might be an option.

 

[Millsy 82]

Problem is you’ll always find someone to fit something no matter how wrong it is. There is a difference with conversation and miss-selling I speak to so many customers where their “plumber” has said such and such will work brilliantly

I fully agree with you that you get people that will just sell whatever they want to and that the best way is to talk to your customer and advise them.

However I totally disagree with the point blank oh you have 2 bathrooms a combi wont cope that gets said on here. There is never usually a question about what showers etc they have it's just assumed that they want to have 2 showers running at the same time. Yes an unvented system is the bee knees but if the customer has the flow rate for an unvented cylinder on the cold then they would have enough flow rate to run a mixer and an electric shower.

In my opinion as well if you have a combi it is not a bad idea to have an electric shower as if/when you have a problem with the boiler you still have means of washing.

There is another post and somebody was asking about what combi to buy and mentioned they might have an extension done and without knowing anything else someone put well if you have 2 bathrooms a combi wont cope never asked anything else just said it wont cope which is absolute rubbish and if you are having an extension you could work an electric shower etc in.

I know I have a different view to other people on this and I do understand fully what the others are saying I'm just saying that this point blank no combi for 2 bathrooms is not factually correct without knowing what showers they have and what usage they have of the hot water only then you can advise on what system would be best suited for your customers needs. If they are doing a house up to sell then you go for the houses needs not the customers.

 

[Riley]

I agree with you with the shower and an electric shower however nobody mentioned an electric shower. A lot of people seem to think they are a lot better than they actually are. I think the thread you are talking about I commented on and it was just to get the point across early doors that depending on what they were doing with the extension a combi wouldn’t be suitable for two bathrooms. All that was, was to stop them getting a plan in place that they may need to change. I think the point being that a combi boiler Is not suitable for two bathrooms you are still subsidising it with an electric shower

 

[Millsy 82]

nobody mentioned an electric shower.

I think the point being that a combi boiler Is not suitable for two bathrooms you are still subsidising it with an electric shower

Nobody has mentioned they want to run 2 12" head showers at the same time either. It gets assumed so therefore the op is not getting the best advice. What would be better would be to say that a combi wont run 2 taps at the same time so if you have 2 mixer showers they wont work at the same time not just a combi wont work for 2 bathrooms.

I would say the majority of the times I take a heat only boiler out and put a combi in they have electric showers installed as they were easier to put in than putting a pump in and running new pipework to the shower positions. But as I said it's not a bad idea to have 1 electric shower as if and when the boiler breaks down overnight they still have a means of washing.

But I suppose we will have to agree to disagree until the next time someone says they want a combi and they are told it wont work with 2 bathrooms.

 

[Riley]

But you and I both know that most people these days want a good strong shower experience. A combi boiler will not give the required water supply. Even if MIs state different we all know that a year down the line with scale etc the showering experience will have diminished. I was in a property a few days ago where if you turned on the shower in the main bathroom then the one in the en-suite you literally got no water out of the en-suite as it was a floor above. That to me is just wrong no ifs no buts. I totally 100% agree with you re electric shower as a back up and giving the option of two showers at once. However electric is never going to give a better shower than via a boiler

 

[Millsy 82]

But you and I both know that most people these days want a good strong shower experience. A combi boiler will not give the required water supply. Even if MIs state different we all know that a year down the line with scale etc the showering experience will have diminished. I was in a property a few days ago where if you turned on the shower in the main bathroom then the one in the en-suite you literally got no water out of the en-suite as it was a floor above. That to me is just wrong no ifs no buts. I totally 100% agree with you re electric shower as a back up and giving the option of two showers at once. However electric is never going to give a better shower than via a boiler

It's no different to a 1 bathroom house and someone turning on a kitchen tap then? So using that logic you would never ever fit a combi boiler.

 

[Stigster]

It's no different to a 1 bathroom house and someone turning on a kitchen tap then? So using that logic you would never ever fit a combi boiler.

Personally I am not a fan of combis when there is room for a cylinder but as long as the customer is well informed, preferably in writing so it's harder for them to bad mouth you when they later move the goal posts and the system doesn't perform as they'd hoped. Obviously not every customer is like this but we know they are out there. I am NOT talking about OP here though!

Combis are "over recommended" in so many cases I believe.

The funny thing is that I have a combi boiler in my own house. I have three bedrooms but only one bathroom and one kitchen. Bathroom has a bath with an electric shower over bath. With only two hot taps and the electric shower my combi is perfect.

If I had two bathrooms and the kids still lived at home no way would I bother with a combi. OP has their own needs.

An informed customer and realistic expectations is the key I think.

 

[Riley]

It's no different to a 1 bathroom house and someone turning on a kitchen tap then? So using that logic you would never ever fit a combi boiler.

But now you are just being pedantic you and I both know that it would affect the flow and the pressure of the shower, I guess they work on the basis that the kitchen tap will not be using as much water for such a long time. I do completely see where you’re coming from mate but you’re not going to sway me. I will continue to spec the correct heating and hot water system based on the property not the occupants. If they don’t like it as I said previously they can use a different tradesmen

 

[Millsy 82]

I have said this story before on here a couple of times. But I will say it again.

Many years ago I worked for a woman in her 60's who lived by her self. She had no intentions of leaving the house she lived in as she liked the house the neighbours etc. Her house was a 4 bed and had a bathroom and ensuite. She had a leak on her old thermal store and her boiler was getting old so she wanted that replacing too. She had 2 people come in and they were both saying she had to have a 300l invented cylinder installed she was in tears because of the cost they wanted to charge her for this tank.

I went in and got chatting to her and she only ever used the shower she rarely had visitors so literally she had a 5 min shower daily and wash her hands a couple of times. I explained to her the reasons why they wanted to install a cylinder I explained to her we could get another thermal store but they were not cheap back then, she then asked about a combi because one of her friends had a combi I replied to her my usual for the size of the house I recommend you go for stored water but because you are using virtually no water your water usage would be fine, I said the problem comes when you turn on a tap you will use pressure on something. She was perfectly happy with that as she never had guests etc.

Needless to say the company I worked for got the job to install a combi (unfortunately she got a Worcester though) I went back to a very happy customer for the remainder of my time working for that company to service the boiler and she couldn't compliment me enough for explaining to her about her system and her options.

If the next people who move in then want the combi removed and a 300l cylinder installed then that is there choice and for them to sort out someone to do it. If you have your name written on the boiler then you may get a call and explain to that customer their options the reasons the last customer went for that system and you may just get another boiler change and system upgrade so can earn more money.

 

[firemant]

When I did up my place, 13 years or so ago, the Worcester rep and technical convinced me to fit a 42Kw combi. Worse thing I did. I had 3 showers but I had one of those as elec for back up reasons. The shower, IIRC, was 10.5Kw, and was, just, okay. 2 years ago, I ripped it all out and went with sealed CH / UV HW. It is like a different world. And 3 proper showers.

Having 2 bathrooms on a combi isn’t the end of the world, necessarily, but why would you recommend something that we all know can be bettered? Agreeing that one designs a heating system based on the individual rather than the house is nonsense. Agreeing with client demands, and fitting accordingly, is fair enough, but it does not make the selection correct.

 

[Millsy 82]

When I did up my place, 13 years or so ago, the Worcester rep and technical convinced me to fit a 42Kw combi. Worse thing I did. I had 3 showers but I had one of those as elec for back up reasons. The shower, IIRC, was 10.5Kw, and was, just, okay. 2 years ago, I ripped it all out and went with sealed CH / UV HW. It is like a different world. And 3 proper showers.

Having 2 bathrooms on a combi isn’t the end of the world, necessarily, but why would you recommend something that we all know can be bettered? Agreeing that one designs a heating system based on the individual rather than the house is nonsense. Agreeing with client demands, and fitting accordingly, is fair enough, but it does not make the selection correct.

Ok so you size to the house a 2 bed house with an ensuite would you fit a 120l unvented cylinder? No didnt think so because they would run out of water in minutes, that would be sized to the house though.

As I said let's just agree to disagree until the next time as I'm bored to death now.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The amount of complaints I have in regards to someone opening a kitchen tap while someone’s in the shower is unreal ripped a few combis out due to this

And how millsy as the cost is nearly the same eg Combi Boiler vs a heat only and unvented/ thermal store under £ 200 difference

So i guess there labour prices were high

 

[Millsy 82]

The amount of complaints I have in regards to someone opening a kitchen tap while someone’s in the shower is unreal ripped a few combis out due to this

And how millsy as the cost is nearly the same eg Combi Boiler vs a heat only and unvented/ thermal store under £ 200 difference

So i guess there labour prices were high

Depends on what your fitting

300l megaflo well over a grand. So mega flo and system boiler £2k easy.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Depends on what your fitting

300l megaflo well over a grand. So mega flo and system boiler £2k easy.

400l gledhill twin coil around the 700 mark

 

[Millsy 82]

400l gledhill twin coil around the 700 mark

35kw biasi £600inc vat

 

[ShaunCorbs]

35kw biasi £600inc vat

But they wanted a Worcester

 

[mark456]

Alpha GS40 flow smart

hi guys me again.
could i have an opinion on this boiler please?
i've read conflicting reviews on its reliability.

regards

 

[Riley]

Honest opinion Alpha is cheap and nasty

 

[mark456]

how about a baxi boiler?

Where in Manchester might be helpful, as it's a big place.

Honest opinion Alpha is cheap and nasty

 

[Riley]

I’m not a fan but some people on here will steer you.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Worcester do a 50kw combi now that does 18lpm, i'll just throw that in the mix Probably needs a 35mm gas run nearly.

OP - you need to be looking at something more decent like a german manufacture (Stay clear of Worcester though).

 

[mark456]

me again

as part of the works i am after a gas first fix in kitchen.
there is an existing gas pipe in kitchen and one guy said that is already a first fix.
shouldn't a gas tap be installed?
see pic

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Depends if it’s still live

 

[firemant]

Is the pipe still live? The tap would be fitted between that outlet and the appliance. What are you expecting the kitchen supply to serve?

 

[mark456]

just a 4 point gas hob

 

[Andy duncan]

Very difficult question without seeing what is actually involved. But if they give you what you want with a Worcester filter and are accredited by Worcester that’ll give you a 10 year warranty. The appliances are not cheap, but I would have a few quotes and not estimates. Recommended installers are worth paying for

 

[mark456]

hi just to update you.
got another two quotes and ended up choosing the installer who will install a valliant echotec 838, 13 stelard rad and two towel rail rads. this quote was 3k more than the alpha installer but a very similar price to the two worcester 42cdi quotes we got.