Have I dropped my self in it here?

[Hobo128]

Went to a property today to do a Landlords safety check, Check all 3 appliances, all working safe.
I then did a tightness test and found there was a droop in pressure, it was within tolerance, less than 4mb over 2 mins with 3 existing appliances connected. I then decided to check to see if it was on any of the appliance and isolated them all. The pressure continued to drop confirming to me it was on the pipework. I had to cap of the gas which means I have to go back now and search for this leak.

My question is , have I dropped my self in it, Reading some other threads and regulations, there is no need for me to have isolated the appliances because it was an existing system with appliances connected and the drop was within tolerances.

Thanks

Tom

 

[Alex Knight]

Maybe although I would have done the same, permissible or not id always isolate and find out whether on appliances or pipe work

 

[AWheating]

the first question i would ask is are you going to get paid for anything you find? if your getting paid well to find and fix the leak then dont worry about it

me personally im very happy to leave a permissable drop, but im also happy to get paid to find and fix to.

 

[GrahamM]

As per AW; are you going to be paid for trace & repair?
If you know you were not and had a permissible drop & no smell of gas you are legally entitled to leave as is.
There is no obligation (unless your employer has other guidelines) for you to isolate appliances and confirm drop is on pipework.

 

[kirkgas]

"Dropped yourself in it " is the wrong phrase, however the next conversation is "will you get paid to find the leak, and if not are you liable for all investigation work" I would assume not on most contacts however some HA contacts are what are commonly referred to as 3* meaning you get paid a monthly sum to look after everything so repairs and parts simply come out the grand total,
Back to basics a bit and this is where we will now argue for days on what is right and wrong,
Let's stick to the rules first then we will get onto our opinion/preferences next

When doing a TT on existing with existing appliances you do not need to isolate the appliances as it's very clearly documented in a table what you are allowed to leave depending on pipework and or meter that is fitted, assuming there's is no smell or report of smell of gas etc etc
However ( as you have done) if you choose to isolate the appliances you cannot have a leak on the pipework,
Your "mistake" for want of a better phrase at the time of finding the drop was that before you did anything else you should have discussed the options with the responsible person for the property, and this is where I KNOW the regs inside out and I'm 100% sure I will not get into any trouble by complying with "their" regs, ( a bit arrogant I know, but it's true haha)

Once you discovered the drop what I would suggest is that you discuss the options, those being
1) leave it as it's permissable ( DOCUMENT THE DROP ON YOUR PAPERWORK ) some paperwork asks for pressure at start and finish of TT and whether it's a pass or fail, some just ask for pass/fail, depending what you use write start 20mb, finish 18mb, PASS, or in the one with just pass/fail write PASS but int he notes write "2mb drop found" this is the bit that protects you, landlords won't want the leak fixed, but if it gets worse and blows up and you haven't told them about it they will greet it isn't their fault because if you told them they would have happily paid £1000's for the repair ( yes we know it's a lie, but you have let them off the hook)
The reason I document the leak in the notes is that in year one it's 2mb in year two it's 3mb if the landlord doesn't read the paperwork and notice it's getting worse that's his prob, again back to you advising him of the drop
2) price up the options for repairing the leak, which will vary depending on what is found and how long it takes to find, eg you agree to confirm the carcass, you isolate everything and find the carcass is ok, now you eliminate the appliances and find it's the tenants own cooker, they greet they can't afford a new one, or it's on the boiler and it needs to be renewed so the landlord if peeved
3) the leak is on the carcass and requires flooring, tiles carpets Etc need to be ripped up make sure you have no liability for anything

Where I have an issue with people saying they isolate the appliances and find the leak on the carcass as "good practice" is that the tenant or landlord or both could take the engineer to task over what they have done as there is simply nothing in the regs giving authority to isolate then cap the gas for a 2mb drop on existing with existing appliances, yes I know it's done for the best etc but I'm sure some smart bum lawyer will have a go at suing a reputable, respectable gas bod for trying to protect someone
As an assessor I have stated many times I have no problem with leaving a leak if it's permissable, documented as mentioned earlier and I move on, some say they would never leave a leak and ISO every time and that's fine if you discuss the ramifications with the person paying the bill. Jeezo my fingers are sore typing this reply
In this case what happens next depends on the contract you have with the responsible person, and also the type of landlord they are, they might try to get you to fix it for nothing as you have overstepped the mark by isolating before me getting permission, the scenario I use for this to guys is
You put you van in for an MOT it passes because they have changed the brake pads as they looked worn, would you pay for the pads or refuse as they didn't discuss it or get permission to do it first, not quite the same but nearly

 

[kirkgas]

Maybe although I would have done the same, permissible or not id always isolate and find out whether on appliances or pipe work

Once you have read my ramble you will be in the camp that disagree with me haha,
I'm never against doing everything safely, but it must be done within the constraint of the regs and permission etc sought before you act, or you could be liable
Eg, (victor meldrew training scenario here) you do a boiler service on Christmas Eve ( so you are there to work on something, not for a report of leak) you do a TT find a two mb drop, you isolate the cooker and boiler and find a leak so you isolate the meter and say you are on holiday for two weeks, the customer says they have 20 people coming for Christmas dinner and what are they to do, you apologise and say there's nothing you can do as it's safety related, however they then search the internet and find out that you didn't NEED to ISO the appliances and could have left the cooker on, advising them of the leak, passing all responsibility back to them to leave the gas on and it could have been rectified on jan 7th or not at all, so could they sue you?
A different scenario is if you do a TT and find a 9mb drop and cap the meter, you can't be sued for that
What do you think now?

 

[kirkgas]

As per AW; are you going to be paid for trace & repair?
If you know you were not and had a permissible drop & no smell of gas you are legally entitled to leave as is.
There is no obligation (unless your employer has other guidelines) for you to isolate appliances and confirm drop is on pipework.

Correct Graham, no contract can allow us to work to less than the regs but be careful that contract requirements aren't stricter than the regs
I had a couple of landlords who simply would not allow any leak found anywhere when we did service, so we would do TT with everything connected, if a leak was found we carried out the logical steps to trace/identify, but the big difference was it was part of the contract, payable and agreed beforehand, and my guys isolated many supplies/cookers/boilers/fires on many bank holiday weekends with no thought of getting into trouble

 

[zeebeedee]

"Dropped yourself in it " is the wrong phrase, however the next conversation is "will you get paid to find the leak, and if not are you liable for all investigation work" I would assume not on most contacts however some HA contacts are what are commonly referred to as 3* meaning you get paid a monthly sum to look after everything so repairs and parts simply come out the grand total,
Back to basics a bit and this is where we will now argue for days on what is right and wrong,
Let's stick to the rules first then we will get onto our opinion/preferences next

When doing a TT on existing with existing appliances you do not need to isolate the appliances as it's very clearly documented in a table what you are allowed to leave depending on pipework and or meter that is fitted, assuming there's is no smell or report of smell of gas etc etc
However ( as you have done) if you choose to isolate the appliances you cannot have a leak on the pipework,
Your "mistake" for want of a better phrase at the time of finding the drop was that before you did anything else you should have discussed the options with the responsible person for the property, and this is where I KNOW the regs inside out and I'm 100% sure I will not get into any trouble by complying with "their" regs, ( a bit arrogant I know, but it's true haha)

Once you discovered the drop what I would suggest is that you discuss the options, those being
1) leave it as it's permissable ( DOCUMENT THE DROP ON YOUR PAPERWORK ) some paperwork asks for pressure at start and finish of TT and whether it's a pass or fail, some just ask for pass/fail, depending what you use write start 20mb, finish 18mb, PASS, or in the one with just pass/fail write PASS but int he notes write "2mb drop found" this is the bit that protects you, landlords won't want the leak fixed, but if it gets worse and blows up and you haven't told them about it they will greet it isn't their fault because if you told them they would have happily paid £1000's for the repair ( yes we know it's a lie, but you have let them off the hook)
The reason I document the leak in the notes is that in year one it's 2mb in year two it's 3mb if the landlord doesn't read the paperwork and notice it's getting worse that's his prob, again back to you advising him of the drop
2) price up the options for repairing the leak, which will vary depending on what is found and how long it takes to find, eg you agree to confirm the carcass, you isolate everything and find the carcass is ok, now you eliminate the appliances and find it's the tenants own cooker, they greet they can't afford a new one, or it's on the boiler and it needs to be renewed so the landlord if peeved
3) the leak is on the carcass and requires flooring, tiles carpets Etc need to be ripped up make sure you have no liability for anything

Where I have an issue with people saying they isolate the appliances and find the leak on the carcass as "good practice" is that the tenant or landlord or both could take the engineer to task over what they have done as there is simply nothing in the regs giving authority to isolate then cap the gas for a 2mb drop on existing with existing appliances, yes I know it's done for the best etc but I'm sure some smart bum lawyer will have a go at suing a reputable, respectable gas bod for trying to protect someone
As an assessor I have stated many times I have no problem with leaving a leak if it's permissable, documented as mentioned earlier and I move on, some say they would never leave a leak and ISO every time and that's fine if you discuss the ramifications with the person paying the bill. Jeezo my fingers are sore typing this reply
In this case what happens next depends on the contract you have with the responsible person, and also the type of landlord they are, they might try to get you to fix it for nothing as you have overstepped the mark by isolating before me getting permission, the scenario I use for this to guys is
You put you van in for an MOT it passes because they have changed the brake pads as they looked worn, would you pay for the pads or refuse as they didn't discuss it or get permission to do it first, not quite the same but nearly

excellent post

 

[wards]

"Dropped yourself in it " is the wrong phrase, however the next conversation is "will you get paid to find the leak, and if not are you liable for all investigation work" I would assume not on most contacts however some HA contacts are what are commonly referred to as 3* meaning you get paid a monthly sum to look after everything so repairs and parts simply come out the grand total,
Back to basics a bit and this is where we will now argue for days on what is right and wrong,
Let's stick to the rules first then we will get onto our opinion/preferences next

When doing a TT on existing with existing appliances you do not need to isolate the appliances as it's very clearly documented in a table what you are allowed to leave depending on pipework and or meter that is fitted, assuming there's is no smell or report of smell of gas etc etc
However ( as you have done) if you choose to isolate the appliances you cannot have a leak on the pipework,
Your "mistake" for want of a better phrase at the time of finding the drop was that before you did anything else you should have discussed the options with the responsible person for the property, and this is where I KNOW the regs inside out and I'm 100% sure I will not get into any trouble by complying with "their" regs, ( a bit arrogant I know, but it's true haha)

Once you discovered the drop what I would suggest is that you discuss the options, those being
1) leave it as it's permissable ( DOCUMENT THE DROP ON YOUR PAPERWORK ) some paperwork asks for pressure at start and finish of TT and whether it's a pass or fail, some just ask for pass/fail, depending what you use write start 20mb, finish 18mb, PASS, or in the one with just pass/fail write PASS but int he notes write "2mb drop found" this is the bit that protects you, landlords won't want the leak fixed, but if it gets worse and blows up and you haven't told them about it they will greet it isn't their fault because if you told them they would have happily paid £1000's for the repair ( yes we know it's a lie, but you have let them off the hook)
The reason I document the leak in the notes is that in year one it's 2mb in year two it's 3mb if the landlord doesn't read the paperwork and notice it's getting worse that's his prob, again back to you advising him of the drop
2) price up the options for repairing the leak, which will vary depending on what is found and how long it takes to find, eg you agree to confirm the carcass, you isolate everything and find the carcass is ok, now you eliminate the appliances and find it's the tenants own cooker, they greet they can't afford a new one, or it's on the boiler and it needs to be renewed so the landlord if peeved
3) the leak is on the carcass and requires flooring, tiles carpets Etc need to be ripped up make sure you have no liability for anything

Where I have an issue with people saying they isolate the appliances and find the leak on the carcass as "good practice" is that the tenant or landlord or both could take the engineer to task over what they have done as there is simply nothing in the regs giving authority to isolate then cap the gas for a 2mb drop on existing with existing appliances, yes I know it's done for the best etc but I'm sure some smart bum lawyer will have a go at suing a reputable, respectable gas bod for trying to protect someone
As an assessor I have stated many times I have no problem with leaving a leak if it's permissable, documented as mentioned earlier and I move on, some say they would never leave a leak and ISO every time and that's fine if you discuss the ramifications with the person paying the bill. Jeezo my fingers are sore typing this reply
In this case what happens next depends on the contract you have with the responsible person, and also the type of landlord they are, they might try to get you to fix it for nothing as you have overstepped the mark by isolating before me getting permission, the scenario I use for this to guys is
You put you van in for an MOT it passes because they have changed the brake pads as they looked worn, would you pay for the pads or refuse as they didn't discuss it or get permission to do it first, not quite the same but nearly

IE.cover your a+se

 

[kirkgas]

IE.cover your a+se

Haha you covered in a few words what I was trying to say

 

[combo]

So, to sum up.

If your not getting paid for any follow up repair and it's within permissible limits.....document and move on.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I thought it was a 2mb drop over 2 mins, all these time's I've been sweating as the manometer sags near to the 2mb drop line :lol:.
I'd personally never be happy wiht a drop over 2mb and would seek the correct authority to progess with tracing and repair of the leak

 

[Mike Jackson]

The get out of this one is the "and no smell of gas". If you find a drop within permissible limits and ask the tenant of they can smell gas anywhere within the property they will often say yes so you are then obligated to hunt for the leak or isolate.

 

[Meady]

I thought you were allowed an 8mb drop with the digital e6 gas meters

 

[GrahamM]

I thought you were allowed an 8mb drop with the digital e6 gas meters

You would be correct.