Have I dropped my self in it here?

[Hobo128]

Went to a property today to do a Landlords safety check, Check all 3 appliances, all working safe.
I then did a tightness test and found there was a droop in pressure, it was within tolerance, less than 4mb over 2 mins with 3 existing appliances connected. I then decided to check to see if it was on any of the appliance and isolated them all. The pressure continued to drop confirming to me it was on the pipework. I had to cap of the gas which means I have to go back now and search for this leak.

My question is , have I dropped my self in it, Reading some other threads and regulations, there is no need for me to have isolated the appliances because it was an existing system with appliances connected and the drop was within tolerances.

Thanks

Tom

 

[Alex Knight]

Maybe although I would have done the same, permissible or not id always isolate and find out whether on appliances or pipe work

 

[AWheating]

the first question i would ask is are you going to get paid for anything you find? if your getting paid well to find and fix the leak then dont worry about it

me personally im very happy to leave a permissable drop, but im also happy to get paid to find and fix to.

 

[GrahamM]

As per AW; are you going to be paid for trace & repair?
If you know you were not and had a permissible drop & no smell of gas you are legally entitled to leave as is.
There is no obligation (unless your employer has other guidelines) for you to isolate appliances and confirm drop is on pipework.

 

[kirkgas]

"Dropped yourself in it " is the wrong phrase, however the next conversation is "will you get paid to find the leak, and if not are you liable for all investigation work" I would assume not on most contacts however some HA contacts are what are commonly referred to as 3* meaning you get paid a monthly sum to look after everything so repairs and parts simply come out the grand total,
Back to basics a bit and this is where we will now argue for days on what is right and wrong,
Let's stick to the rules first then we will get onto our opinion/preferences next

When doing a TT on existing with existing appliances you do not need to isolate the appliances as it's very clearly documented in a table what you are allowed to leave depending on pipework and or meter that is fitted, assuming there's is no smell or report of smell of gas etc etc
However ( as you have done) if you choose to isolate the appliances you cannot have a leak on the pipework,
Your "mistake" for want of a better phrase at the time of finding the drop was that before you did anything else you should have discussed the options with the responsible person for the property, and this is where I KNOW the regs inside out and I'm 100% sure I will not get into any trouble by complying with "their" regs, ( a bit arrogant I know, but it's true haha)

Once you discovered the drop what I would suggest is that you discuss the options, those being
1) leave it as it's permissable ( DOCUMENT THE DROP ON YOUR PAPERWORK ) some paperwork asks for pressure at start and finish of TT and whether it's a pass or fail, some just ask for pass/fail, depending what you use write start 20mb, finish 18mb, PASS, or in the one with just pass/fail write PASS but int he notes write "2mb drop found" this is the bit that protects you, landlords won't want the leak fixed, but if it gets worse and blows up and you haven't told them about it they will greet it isn't their fault because if you told them they would have happily paid £1000's for the repair ( yes we know it's a lie, but you have let them off the hook)
The reason I document the leak in the notes is that in year one it's 2mb in year two it's 3mb if the landlord doesn't read the paperwork and notice it's getting worse that's his prob, again back to you advising him of the drop
2) price up the options for repairing the leak, which will vary depending on what is found and how long it takes to find, eg you agree to confirm the carcass, you isolate everything and find the carcass is ok, now you eliminate the appliances and find it's the tenants own cooker, they greet they can't afford a new one, or it's on the boiler and it needs to be renewed so the landlord if peeved
3) the leak is on the carcass and requires flooring, tiles carpets Etc need to be ripped up make sure you have no liability for anything

Where I have an issue with people saying they isolate the appliances and find the leak on the carcass as "good practice" is that the tenant or landlord or both could take the engineer to task over what they have done as there is simply nothing in the regs giving authority to isolate then cap the gas for a 2mb drop on existing with existing appliances, yes I know it's done for the best etc but I'm sure some smart bum lawyer will have a go at suing a reputable, respectable gas bod for trying to protect someone
As an assessor I have stated many times I have no problem with leaving a leak if it's permissable, documented as mentioned earlier and I move on, some say they would never leave a leak and ISO every time and that's fine if you discuss the ramifications with the person paying the bill. Jeezo my fingers are sore typing this reply
In this case what happens next depends on the contract you have with the responsible person, and also the type of landlord they are, they might try to get you to fix it for nothing as you have overstepped the mark by isolating before me getting permission, the scenario I use for this to guys is
You put you van in for an MOT it passes because they have changed the brake pads as they looked worn, would you pay for the pads or refuse as they didn't discuss it or get permission to do it first, not quite the same but nearly

 

[kirkgas]

Maybe although I would have done the same, permissible or not id always isolate and find out whether on appliances or pipe work

Once you have read my ramble you will be in the camp that disagree with me haha,
I'm never against doing everything safely, but it must be done within the constraint of the regs and permission etc sought before you act, or you could be liable
Eg, (victor meldrew training scenario here) you do a boiler service on Christmas Eve ( so you are there to work on something, not for a report of leak) you do a TT find a two mb drop, you isolate the cooker and boiler and find a leak so you isolate the meter and say you are on holiday for two weeks, the customer says they have 20 people coming for Christmas dinner and what are they to do, you apologise and say there's nothing you can do as it's safety related, however they then search the internet and find out that you didn't NEED to ISO the appliances and could have left the cooker on, advising them of the leak, passing all responsibility back to them to leave the gas on and it could have been rectified on jan 7th or not at all, so could they sue you?
A different scenario is if you do a TT and find a 9mb drop and cap the meter, you can't be sued for that
What do you think now?

 

[kirkgas]

As per AW; are you going to be paid for trace & repair?
If you know you were not and had a permissible drop & no smell of gas you are legally entitled to leave as is.
There is no obligation (unless your employer has other guidelines) for you to isolate appliances and confirm drop is on pipework.

Correct Graham, no contract can allow us to work to less than the regs but be careful that contract requirements aren't stricter than the regs
I had a couple of landlords who simply would not allow any leak found anywhere when we did service, so we would do TT with everything connected, if a leak was found we carried out the logical steps to trace/identify, but the big difference was it was part of the contract, payable and agreed beforehand, and my guys isolated many supplies/cookers/boilers/fires on many bank holiday weekends with no thought of getting into trouble

 

[zeebeedee]

"Dropped yourself in it " is the wrong phrase, however the next conversation is "will you get paid to find the leak, and if not are you liable for all investigation work" I would assume not on most contacts however some HA contacts are what are commonly referred to as 3* meaning you get paid a monthly sum to look after everything so repairs and parts simply come out the grand total,
Back to basics a bit and this is where we will now argue for days on what is right and wrong,
Let's stick to the rules first then we will get onto our opinion/preferences next

When doing a TT on existing with existing appliances you do not need to isolate the appliances as it's very clearly documented in a table what you are allowed to leave depending on pipework and or meter that is fitted, assuming there's is no smell or report of smell of gas etc etc
However ( as you have done) if you choose to isolate the appliances you cannot have a leak on the pipework,
Your "mistake" for want of a better phrase at the time of finding the drop was that before you did anything else you should have discussed the options with the responsible person for the property, and this is where I KNOW the regs inside out and I'm 100% sure I will not get into any trouble by complying with "their" regs, ( a bit arrogant I know, but it's true haha)

Once you discovered the drop what I would suggest is that you discuss the options, those being
1) leave it as it's permissable ( DOCUMENT THE DROP ON YOUR PAPERWORK ) some paperwork asks for pressure at start and finish of TT and whether it's a pass or fail, some just ask for pass/fail, depending what you use write start 20mb, finish 18mb, PASS, or in the one with just pass/fail write PASS but int he notes write "2mb drop found" this is the bit that protects you, landlords won't want the leak fixed, but if it gets worse and blows up and you haven't told them about it they will greet it isn't their fault because if you told them they would have happily paid £1000's for the repair ( yes we know it's a lie, but you have let them off the hook)
The reason I document the leak in the notes is that in year one it's 2mb in year two it's 3mb if the landlord doesn't read the paperwork and notice it's getting worse that's his prob, again back to you advising him of the drop
2) price up the options for repairing the leak, which will vary depending on what is found and how long it takes to find, eg you agree to confirm the carcass, you isolate everything and find the carcass is ok, now you eliminate the appliances and find it's the tenants own cooker, they greet they can't afford a new one, or it's on the boiler and it needs to be renewed so the landlord if peeved
3) the leak is on the carcass and requires flooring, tiles carpets Etc need to be ripped up make sure you have no liability for anything

Where I have an issue with people saying they isolate the appliances and find the leak on the carcass as "good practice" is that the tenant or landlord or both could take the engineer to task over what they have done as there is simply nothing in the regs giving authority to isolate then cap the gas for a 2mb drop on existing with existing appliances, yes I know it's done for the best etc but I'm sure some smart bum lawyer will have a go at suing a reputable, respectable gas bod for trying to protect someone
As an assessor I have stated many times I have no problem with leaving a leak if it's permissable, documented as mentioned earlier and I move on, some say they would never leave a leak and ISO every time and that's fine if you discuss the ramifications with the person paying the bill. Jeezo my fingers are sore typing this reply
In this case what happens next depends on the contract you have with the responsible person, and also the type of landlord they are, they might try to get you to fix it for nothing as you have overstepped the mark by isolating before me getting permission, the scenario I use for this to guys is
You put you van in for an MOT it passes because they have changed the brake pads as they looked worn, would you pay for the pads or refuse as they didn't discuss it or get permission to do it first, not quite the same but nearly

excellent post

 

[wards]

"Dropped yourself in it " is the wrong phrase, however the next conversation is "will you get paid to find the leak, and if not are you liable for all investigation work" I would assume not on most contacts however some HA contacts are what are commonly referred to as 3* meaning you get paid a monthly sum to look after everything so repairs and parts simply come out the grand total,
Back to basics a bit and this is where we will now argue for days on what is right and wrong,
Let's stick to the rules first then we will get onto our opinion/preferences next

When doing a TT on existing with existing appliances you do not need to isolate the appliances as it's very clearly documented in a table what you are allowed to leave depending on pipework and or meter that is fitted, assuming there's is no smell or report of smell of gas etc etc
However ( as you have done) if you choose to isolate the appliances you cannot have a leak on the pipework,
Your "mistake" for want of a better phrase at the time of finding the drop was that before you did anything else you should have discussed the options with the responsible person for the property, and this is where I KNOW the regs inside out and I'm 100% sure I will not get into any trouble by complying with "their" regs, ( a bit arrogant I know, but it's true haha)

Once you discovered the drop what I would suggest is that you discuss the options, those being
1) leave it as it's permissable ( DOCUMENT THE DROP ON YOUR PAPERWORK ) some paperwork asks for pressure at start and finish of TT and whether it's a pass or fail, some just ask for pass/fail, depending what you use write start 20mb, finish 18mb, PASS, or in the one with just pass/fail write PASS but int he notes write "2mb drop found" this is the bit that protects you, landlords won't want the leak fixed, but if it gets worse and blows up and you haven't told them about it they will greet it isn't their fault because if you told them they would have happily paid £1000's for the repair ( yes we know it's a lie, but you have let them off the hook)
The reason I document the leak in the notes is that in year one it's 2mb in year two it's 3mb if the landlord doesn't read the paperwork and notice it's getting worse that's his prob, again back to you advising him of the drop
2) price up the options for repairing the leak, which will vary depending on what is found and how long it takes to find, eg you agree to confirm the carcass, you isolate everything and find the carcass is ok, now you eliminate the appliances and find it's the tenants own cooker, they greet they can't afford a new one, or it's on the boiler and it needs to be renewed so the landlord if peeved
3) the leak is on the carcass and requires flooring, tiles carpets Etc need to be ripped up make sure you have no liability for anything

Where I have an issue with people saying they isolate the appliances and find the leak on the carcass as "good practice" is that the tenant or landlord or both could take the engineer to task over what they have done as there is simply nothing in the regs giving authority to isolate then cap the gas for a 2mb drop on existing with existing appliances, yes I know it's done for the best etc but I'm sure some smart bum lawyer will have a go at suing a reputable, respectable gas bod for trying to protect someone
As an assessor I have stated many times I have no problem with leaving a leak if it's permissable, documented as mentioned earlier and I move on, some say they would never leave a leak and ISO every time and that's fine if you discuss the ramifications with the person paying the bill. Jeezo my fingers are sore typing this reply
In this case what happens next depends on the contract you have with the responsible person, and also the type of landlord they are, they might try to get you to fix it for nothing as you have overstepped the mark by isolating before me getting permission, the scenario I use for this to guys is
You put you van in for an MOT it passes because they have changed the brake pads as they looked worn, would you pay for the pads or refuse as they didn't discuss it or get permission to do it first, not quite the same but nearly

IE.cover your a+se

 

[kirkgas]

IE.cover your a+se

Haha you covered in a few words what I was trying to say

 

[combo]

So, to sum up.

If your not getting paid for any follow up repair and it's within permissible limits.....document and move on.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I thought it was a 2mb drop over 2 mins, all these time's I've been sweating as the manometer sags near to the 2mb drop line :lol:.
I'd personally never be happy wiht a drop over 2mb and would seek the correct authority to progess with tracing and repair of the leak

 

[Mike Jackson]

The get out of this one is the "and no smell of gas". If you find a drop within permissible limits and ask the tenant of they can smell gas anywhere within the property they will often say yes so you are then obligated to hunt for the leak or isolate.

 

[Meady]

I thought you were allowed an 8mb drop with the digital e6 gas meters

 

[GrahamM]

I thought you were allowed an 8mb drop with the digital e6 gas meters

You would be correct.

 

[Meady]

That's just scary, I panic if I have a .5mb drop with the meter and appliances connected

 

[kirkgas]

That's just scary, I panic if I have a .5mb drop with the meter and appliances connected

Why?
If you are allowed 4mb "they" must be saying it's safe, the reality is the safe pressure drop will be much bigger than 4mb but they have decided to limit it to 4mb to err on the side of safety, same as a flue needs to be minimum of 300mm from an openable window, the actual safe distance will be higher but they say 300mm for CYA, so how dangerous is a 0.5mb leak

 

[lame plumber]

last drop I found was in limits in a private tenancy, previous gsr techie past llc even though tenants complained of gas smell. So started in cupboard with sniffer, found leak on 22mm ef union, gave it a tug and off came the pipe on top, held by old flux. Only gave a 3mb drop over 2 mins!! Poor little sniffer went off the scale when i pulled pipework apart, even had to ask the muppets to put their **** out after i turned off the meter in same cupboard twas glad i looked a little further!! repaired and tested and off home for tea, somewhat chastened by what Id found. before you go riddor, why bother, I wasnt going away and leaving them off gas for days and b all ever happens if no one hurt!

 

[stevetheplumber]

great post kirk but this is exactly what your taught on the training if it drops within permissible limits no smell thats it pass drop recorded some one else decision from there on
we get a similar problem with flues we cant inspect fully boiler gets AR ed we leave, tennant switches back on next year its the same scenario by AR ing the boiler your passing responsability
personally i hate the situation as your passing responsibility from someone with training to someone with none but thats the regs we have to work with Ive got no grounds to make the boiler ID and the company is only concerned with getting the certs done regardless of how it finishes
Dont think ive got any problem with shutting stuff off if i have the right reasons i had to call out the supplier last week to cap an id cooker with an entire family shouting at me that they couldnt afford a new one how were they going to feed the family blah blah blah refused me permission to cap so outside ring supplier get reference number and on to the next job

 

[Whyme]

ive always approached services especially by asking if boiler etc is ok and in just passing comment " have you ever smelt gas anywhere". if answers no then permissible limits because that amount of gas is usually going to dissipate quite easily.

 

[tamz]

That's just scary, I panic if I have a .5mb drop with the meter and appliances connected

You'll learn. Go by the rules and no one can pull you up.

 

[kirkgas]

You'll learn. Go by the rules and no one can pull you up.

You are right tam, he will learn, I like to do things safely but I've long given up stressing about the **** that could follow, stick to their rules and they will find it difficult to drop you in it as it's their rules you complied with in the first place which would mean a complete rethink of their rules

 

[beesley121]

I was always told that someone far clever,er than us has worked out that the permissible drops are safe. Who am I to argue? Provided there's no smell of gas, which means it's not holding up anywhere, we have done what the regs have asked us to do.
Also, a 8mb drop on an e6 meter over 2 mins 'leaks' the same amount of gas as a G4 meter thats dropping 4mb over 2 mins, both on the same size pipe work. Some people think cos it's 8mb, it must be loosing more gas, it's not

 

[Zee Gas Man]

Depending on the meter the drop could be 8mb and with in limits, i personally do not do private work but whenever i find a drop i document and write no smell of gas then move on.

 

[GrahamM]

As I have said before on this forum on a number of occasions.........the rules/regs are there to protect us as well as the customer!
Wither you agree with them or not, if you work by them to the letter you will always have them to back you up. If you start working outside them you may be opening yourself up to prosecution/legal challenging etc.
Work safe to the regs, give the customer the best advice were required!

 

[jefaz]

I used to ask on arrival if there were any problems/any smells of gas. If yes then I'd have to find. If no then leave it. Sometimes after doing a drop test then asking if they can smell gas may put doubt and words in their mind so will just say yes as they think there's a problem.
On voids and such a drop would be traced and repaired due to the fact there is no1 there to smell it.

 

[Alex Knight]

Once you have read my ramble you will be in the camp that disagree with me haha,
I'm never against doing everything safely, but it must be done within the constraint of the regs and permission etc sought before you act, or you could be liable
Eg, (victor meldrew training scenario here) you do a boiler service on Christmas Eve ( so you are there to work on something, not for a report of leak) you do a TT find a two mb drop, you isolate the cooker and boiler and find a leak so you isolate the meter and say you are on holiday for two weeks, the customer says they have 20 people coming for Christmas dinner and what are they to do, you apologise and say there's nothing you can do as it's safety related, however they then search the internet and find out that you didn't NEED to ISO the appliances and could have left the cooker on, advising them of the leak, passing all responsibility back to them to leave the gas on and it could have been rectified on jan 7th or not at all, so could they sue you?
A different scenario is if you do a TT and find a 9mb drop and cap the meter, you can't be sued for that
What do you think now?

The trouble is at the moment we don't have any bad customers so doing that wouldn't cause a problem, however I completely agree with what you say and in the case of working for a new client I would be wary of starting work that hadn't been authorised

 

[GGB Heating]

If you leave a permissible and don't investigate the appliances and it causes an explosion where do you think the HSE will come knocking. For the sake of an extra test isolating all the appliances and only testing the pipe work will allow peace of mind and ensure that you followed correct protocol. You haven't dropped yourself in it just remember safety is paramount.

 

[stratplus]

so what about if there is a permissable drop and some pipework from the meter has been extended for eg external wall insulation has been fitted and gas carcass from meter has been extended but tagged onto existing pipework.
Someone else has extended the pipe and tagged on, you turn up for final cert and find permissable drop, no smell of gas with appliances connected.
Would this no longer be classed as existing and they havent recorded a drop on their cert.

 

[dave1]

I would note it down on cp12 if no smell, if its a paying customer give them the option of isolating and trying to source the leak. But if you find it's a drop on the pipework you've got to repair it.

 

[kirkgas]

If you leave a permissible and don't investigate the appliances and it causes an explosion where do you think the HSE will come knocking. For the sake of an extra test isolating all the appliances and only testing the pipe work will allow peace of mind and ensure that you followed correct protocol. You haven't dropped yourself in it just remember safety is paramount.

I beg to differ on what you have said here.
If you wish to say your opinion is that it is better to isolate and check the appliances then that is your opinion and cannot be wrong, however what you have said "ensure you follows correct protocol" is not correct
Read IGE/Up/1b and quote where it says you MUST investigate the permissable drop and prove it isn't on the carcass
If it says you must investigate the source they would not give you a table of permissable drops on existing systems with existing appliances
And on your point of where the HSE would go after an explosion, yes they would come to me as the last person to work on it and when I showed them my paperwork they could not charge me with anything, it isn't about just doing an extra test, although you could end up doing 3/4 tests, it's about the action you need to take when you identify where the leak is, on the carcass you need to rectify or blank it off, but say it's on the cooker, if you can't smell gas can you reconnect the cooker, or say it's on the boiler, it's room sealed, electronic ignition, you ISO the boiler and it's sound, you open the valve and it drops 2mb, you LDF the gas parts after the ISO and can't find the leak, therefor it must be passing through the thermo electric valve therefore it's ID
I know the regs and will not get into trouble by complying with them, or they will need to rewrite them for everyone else and they won't do that and prove themselves wrong, I don't mind people wanting to do everything they can, but if you test the carcass only and then have to cap it have you complied with the reg or overstepped the mark, yes for the best intentions, but I say you are overstepping by isolating the appliances without permission and explaining the ramifications

 

[kirkgas]

so what about if there is a permissable drop and some pipework from the meter has been extended for eg external wall insulation has been fitted and gas carcass from meter has been extended but tagged onto existing pipework.
Someone else has extended the pipe and tagged on, you turn up for final cert and find permissable drop, no smell of gas with appliances connected.
Would this no longer be classed as existing and they havent recorded a drop on their cert.

It is either existing or new to whoever is working on it, remember if you extend an existing system your new pipework cannot have any leak, so they would/should test, find 2mb drop, connect their new pipework and if the drop is still 2mb they are good to go,
I'm dismayed at the amount of one day heating installers I've assessed who don't test in the morning and only test at night and think it's right to say "as long as the leak is less than 4 or 8 when I'm done that's allowed" eh no it isnae as you don't know where the leak is, and these are reassessment guys

 

[kirkgas]

I would note it down on cp12 if no smell, if its a paying customer give them the option of isolating and trying to source the leak. But if you find it's a drop on the pipework you've got to repair it.

I agree about noting it down, I have noted everything for many years, but it is acceptable on the paperwork that asks for just PASS/FAIL to write PASS if you find a drop, however I've told guys for years to write PASS and then in the notes write "2mb drop, no smell" to me this helps prove you did the test, and it advises the responsible person there is a slight drop and passes the buck back to them to decide not to investigate it.
I've also got into the habit on CP12 Work of marking down in the appliance section that a " parkinson 210 electric cooker is fitted" etc, not necessary obviously but it's good CYA, as we know when there's a prob they will talk to the last guy, so if that was me 6 months ago doing a service and the house blows up due to the gas cooker, they will question me why I. Issued the gas cooker and didn't check it, I try to remember the house and maybe that there wasn't a gas Coker fitted as I don't miss things, but if I've marked down a specific electric cooker it helps them investigate, and low and behold find out the brother in law fitted a second hand cooker last week, and I'm off the hook

 

[stratplus]

It is either existing or new to whoever is working on it, remember if you extend an existing system your new pipework cannot have any leak, so they would/should test, find 2mb drop, connect their new pipework and if the drop is still 2mb they are good to go,
I'm dismayed at the amount of one day heating installers I've assessed who don't test in the morning and only test at night and think it's right to say "as long as the leak is less than 4 or 8 when I'm done that's allowed" eh no it isnae as you don't know where the leak is, and these are reassessment guys

Ok but if they didnt test either b4 or after the additional pipework or hadnt noted a drop and i come to issue the cert i suppose i would class that as existing because i havent worked on it. The additional pipework would have been down to them to test and nothing to do with me.

 

[GGB Heating]

I beg to differ on what you have said here.
If you wish to say your opinion is that it is better to isolate and check the appliances then that is your opinion and cannot be wrong, however what you have said "ensure you follows correct protocol" is not correct
Read IGE/Up/1b and quote where it says you MUST investigate the permissable drop and prove it isn't on the carcass
If it says you must investigate the source they would not give you a table of permissable drops on existing systems with existing appliances
And on your point of where the HSE would go after an explosion, yes they would come to me as the last person to work on it and when I showed them my paperwork they could not charge me with anything, it isn't about just doing an extra test, although you could end up doing 3/4 tests, it's about the action you need to take when you identify where the leak is, on the carcass you need to rectify or blank it off, but say it's on the cooker, if you can't smell gas can you reconnect the cooker, or say it's on the boiler, it's room sealed, electronic ignition, you ISO the boiler and it's sound, you open the valve and it drops 2mb, you LDF the gas parts after the ISO and can't find the leak, therefor it must be passing through the thermo electric valve therefore it's ID
I know the regs and will not get into trouble by complying with them, or they will need to rewrite them for everyone else and they won't do that and prove themselves wrong, I don't mind people wanting to do everything they can, but if you test the carcass only and then have to cap it have you complied with the reg or overstepped the mark, yes for the best intentions, but I say you are overstepping by isolating the appliances without permission and explaining the ramifications

This is your interpretation of the regs, which clearly state that no drop across the carcass, to test the carcass you would have to isolate all the appliances together and test, therefore not leaving it to chance whether or not the leak is on the carcass or not. Without proving the gas leak is not on the carcass how would you know? Has for overstepping the mark at this point the customer would have been informed of my findings and told what I was doing.