You may have been unlucky with who you had in. I know many plumbers that don't have a clue when it comes to these sort of thing. Anybody can make rads get hot. You only have to look at how many boilers that are oversized to see that the fundamentals pass them by.
Discuss But what controls do I ACTUALLY need to have installed with the boiler?! in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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Blackspaven
Ah, gotcha... and I know the song. 
(just been taking a few hits on here of late so I've gotten a bit bleurgh)
Yeah, possibly I've been a little unllucky, it's just that I asked 5 people to quote for me from various sources and all have come up with different solutions, different ways of doing things, different 'rules' of what's 'allowed' (!!), and different ideas,... and very different prices, so it's unbelievably tricky for the layperson to try to work out what's actually needed and how much one should actually be paying when people in the trade are doing it every single day so know the worth & value of most things, boiler-wise.
If it was all along the same way, you could judge things on price, professionalism, apparent knowledge, etc. but it's such a wide playing field it's a nightmare when you're not up to speed. I appreciate all the people on here who have been giving their honest opinions though, I'm very much more clued up as to what I need and which plumbers seem to be on the money and which are wide of the mark.
Well done fellas. :willy_nilly:
(To be fair, I don't think the guys were 'bad' plumbers or anything like that, it was just such a variation that some outshone others, that's all. That's life!)
(just been taking a few hits on here of late so I've gotten a bit bleurgh)Yeah, possibly I've been a little unllucky, it's just that I asked 5 people to quote for me from various sources and all have come up with different solutions, different ways of doing things, different 'rules' of what's 'allowed' (!!), and different ideas,... and very different prices, so it's unbelievably tricky for the layperson to try to work out what's actually needed and how much one should actually be paying when people in the trade are doing it every single day so know the worth & value of most things, boiler-wise.
If it was all along the same way, you could judge things on price, professionalism, apparent knowledge, etc. but it's such a wide playing field it's a nightmare when you're not up to speed. I appreciate all the people on here who have been giving their honest opinions though, I'm very much more clued up as to what I need and which plumbers seem to be on the money and which are wide of the mark.
Well done fellas. :willy_nilly:
(To be fair, I don't think the guys were 'bad' plumbers or anything like that, it was just such a variation that some outshone others, that's all. That's life!)
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Blackspaven
Much love for the offer Howsie, but in the last few days I've managed to get a fella who seems really good, explains the why's and how's in a way that's understandable, charges a decent amount and is an all round good egg, so the job's his, it's just the small details over what bits & bobs I'm gonna add on... couple of extra rads and stuff... ;0)
Actually, I'm not too far from you in general, I live in Farnborough, just over the Surrey border.
Actually, I'm not too far from you in general, I live in Farnborough, just over the Surrey border.
D
Dotty
Make sure you treat him well, leaving the makings for tea and coffee always goes down a treat,
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Blackspaven
Abso-bloomin'-lutely!
(couple of beers to go home with after as well probably! )
(couple of beers to go home with after as well probably!
)Could you PM his name. I may know him...
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Blackspaven
Will do, I only know his first name! Actually installed the existing boiler & central heating 14 years ago but didn't think he was available... but now he is! Lives in Basingstoke.
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Blackspaven
Okay, so the fitter is looking into price difference between the Comfort 2 I'm possibly having and the FW100 weather compensating system, which looks quite likely I may switch to, but...
...the brick insulation in my house ain't bad but not great: it's a victorian house which can't be cavity insulated cos of the rubbish the builders shoved into it 120 years ago. So does that make a difference to that type of controller? Only asking as I've read on an other thread it can be an issue in a flat. I get how it works, just wondering if my house can intrinsically knacker it's worth!
Any thoughts?
...the brick insulation in my house ain't bad but not great: it's a victorian house which can't be cavity insulated cos of the rubbish the builders shoved into it 120 years ago. So does that make a difference to that type of controller? Only asking as I've read on an other thread it can be an issue in a flat. I get how it works, just wondering if my house can intrinsically knacker it's worth!
Any thoughts?
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newcastle phill
Yes - anyone got a shotgun
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Except on UFH.
I have to disconnect one this week because the customer is complaining that the floor temperature is not warm enough.
Can't explain to the customer the benefits of having weather compensation.
They just want warm floors all the time.
Their gas bill versus our planet - and my sanity.
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Blackspaven
Newcastle Phil, you can catch the trigger with your toe if you try hard enough.
Reason I'm asking is cos the guy fitting it hasn't installed one before and therefore can't advise on it as HE doesn't know, but thanks for the advise, as long as there's no issues with my old house itself I may well go for it, it does seems almost like common sense. (when I asked him, he said probably only 5% of plumbers have installed them but 100% of them then rate them highly)
Phil... Good luck in the championship next year.
Reason I'm asking is cos the guy fitting it hasn't installed one before and therefore can't advise on it as HE doesn't know, but thanks for the advise, as long as there's no issues with my old house itself I may well go for it, it does seems almost like common sense. (when I asked him, he said probably only 5% of plumbers have installed them but 100% of them then rate them highly)
Phil... Good luck in the championship next year.
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Blackspaven
Ooh, just had an interesting conversation with a tech bloke at WB about the FW100 weather compensating controller, see what you guys think of this:
I said I had a Victorian house which can't be cavity filled and is a bit nippy at times, the heat insulation isn't great but managable, and he said don't get the weather compensating module cos it'll never reach warm enough temps. Said the installer will set the heat curve for it to work to in any specific house but it'll take the outside temp and not compensate for the potentially low temp inside so 10 degrees outside will only give you about 40 degrees, hand/luke warm kicking out the boiler. There's no thermostat with that bit of kit. Said straight out, don't bother, go for the Comfort 2 cos it's got an internal thermostat instead and will work the boiler in relation to the inside temp and give a better result.
Food for thought?
I said I had a Victorian house which can't be cavity filled and is a bit nippy at times, the heat insulation isn't great but managable, and he said don't get the weather compensating module cos it'll never reach warm enough temps. Said the installer will set the heat curve for it to work to in any specific house but it'll take the outside temp and not compensate for the potentially low temp inside so 10 degrees outside will only give you about 40 degrees, hand/luke warm kicking out the boiler. There's no thermostat with that bit of kit. Said straight out, don't bother, go for the Comfort 2 cos it's got an internal thermostat instead and will work the boiler in relation to the inside temp and give a better result.
Food for thought?
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It does work.
I just can't explain to the customer that due to higher outdoor temperatures the boiler heats the water to a lower temperature - hence lower temperature floors.
I am dealing with Eastern European's - can't tell them anything
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Did you explain to the person that you also would like and internal thermostat as well.
I think he misunderstood your request, to the point of, having the system run off the weather compensation thermostat only
I think he misunderstood your request, to the point of, having the system run off the weather compensation thermostat only
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Blackspaven
I confirmed that the kit didn't come with a thermostat so how does it work and apparently (if I understood it right) it's designed to work as one OR the other: the controller when fitted on the slot on the boiler uses the outside sensor, when fitted on the wall acts as a thermostat, but that then stops the outside sensor from working as it doesn't receive, it' sends. So if it's physically in the boiler, there's no in signal for a room thermostat, just the outside sensor.
There's a hard wired, wall mounted 'cage' so the controller can be popped out the boiler itself and clipped in the cage as a regular thermostat to do one or the other job.
I did say that I thought if you had both then you could work on the thermostat temp, and the outside temp could balance HOW the boiler works to compensate so you kept the room at the temp you want but have an efficient boiler, but he said it can't work with both the sensor and a regular thermostat, not wired that way. He said it was more designed for a more modern, better insulated house.
Also, I may end up renting this place out in 5 years and he said that you have to manage heat curves, which in summer/winter are fine, but in the crossover months of spring/autumn it would probaly be a pain and you'd be constantly adjusting it all to get it right if the house possibly isn't as good as a modern build in holding heat.
Annoying.
There's a hard wired, wall mounted 'cage' so the controller can be popped out the boiler itself and clipped in the cage as a regular thermostat to do one or the other job.
I did say that I thought if you had both then you could work on the thermostat temp, and the outside temp could balance HOW the boiler works to compensate so you kept the room at the temp you want but have an efficient boiler, but he said it can't work with both the sensor and a regular thermostat, not wired that way. He said it was more designed for a more modern, better insulated house.
Also, I may end up renting this place out in 5 years and he said that you have to manage heat curves, which in summer/winter are fine, but in the crossover months of spring/autumn it would probaly be a pain and you'd be constantly adjusting it all to get it right if the house possibly isn't as good as a modern build in holding heat.
Annoying.
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The easiest solution to your problem would be to have an indoor thermostat installed with an external weather compensation thermostat installed.
Have the installer set the system up.
If you are not happy with the performance of the system with both indoor and outdoor thermostats, just disconnect the external weather compensator from the terminals in the boiler.
That will mean, that with radiator panels, the boiler will just heat the water up in the system to the set water temperature on the boiler.
The boiler will assume you want an indoor temperature of 21C. The weather compensator will say the outdoor temp is 16C. That will tell the boiler to heat the water, to say 50C, because you don't need 75C to bring the house up to temperature.
That's all they do. Everything is generally pre-set to these parameters.
There is tech info on all this, but for domestic installations, there is not much more you really need to know
Have the installer set the system up.
If you are not happy with the performance of the system with both indoor and outdoor thermostats, just disconnect the external weather compensator from the terminals in the boiler.
That will mean, that with radiator panels, the boiler will just heat the water up in the system to the set water temperature on the boiler.
The boiler will assume you want an indoor temperature of 21C. The weather compensator will say the outdoor temp is 16C. That will tell the boiler to heat the water, to say 50C, because you don't need 75C to bring the house up to temperature.
That's all they do. Everything is generally pre-set to these parameters.
There is tech info on all this, but for domestic installations, there is not much more you really need to know
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Blackspaven
Cool, thanks.
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oz-plumber, an excellent description of what weather compensation does. I had it installed in my house in France (heating engineer just included it in the install without asking me, after all he is the expert). It is one of those things that when installed it just works quietly doing it's job.
When I bought my new build house here in the UK two years ago I asked the developers to specify weather compensation with my standard install Ideal boiler. After many exchanges something along the lines of "Oh, what does that do, I must ask the heating engineer doing the install?" Heating installer (doing 150 houses) knew nothing about weather compensation, so I brought him up to speed by pointing him to Ideal weather compensation kits. The site manager came back and told me that this would cost another £400 to install, £200 for the electrician and £200 for the plumber!! Now that is what I call a rip off - the cost of the kit was less than £30!!
Sadly (for me) I decided not to have weather compensation and installed a Nest Learning Thermostat after the house was finished!
Needless to say these discussions all took place before the house was built!!
When I bought my new build house here in the UK two years ago I asked the developers to specify weather compensation with my standard install Ideal boiler. After many exchanges something along the lines of "Oh, what does that do, I must ask the heating engineer doing the install?" Heating installer (doing 150 houses) knew nothing about weather compensation, so I brought him up to speed by pointing him to Ideal weather compensation kits. The site manager came back and told me that this would cost another £400 to install, £200 for the electrician and £200 for the plumber!! Now that is what I call a rip off - the cost of the kit was less than £30!!
Sadly (for me) I decided not to have weather compensation and installed a Nest Learning Thermostat after the house was finished!
Needless to say these discussions all took place before the house was built!!
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Frelon why not get it installed now by a local engineer, wouldn't cost that much. Could probably sell the nest on eBay and come out even.
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When I made enquiries about this amongst my local engineers, none were interested in the job!
The north facing wall of my house where the sensor should be located is rendered in the latest polymer render (white). I do not want wires running down from the sensor on the outside of the house to the boiler so only solution was to come through the wall with the wires and somehow try to run them inside the house (cavity wall) to the boiler - yet another challenge. This was why I wanted the wiring installed during the build process, but builder was uncooperative!
The fall back option was the Nest, and I must say it has worked without any problems since the installation. It links through the internet to the local weather situation (outside temperature) and appears to make adjustments accordingly.
Initial installation of the Nest was a challenge as none of the local heating engineers had any experience of installing the Nest system, but all said they would "give it a go!". No thanks, I do not want to be a guinea pig for their learning!! The authorised Nest installer did it in 30 minutes and gave me a comprehensive run through of the controls - not that much instruction is required.
So overall a less expensive method of installing weather compensation - that works.
The north facing wall of my house where the sensor should be located is rendered in the latest polymer render (white). I do not want wires running down from the sensor on the outside of the house to the boiler so only solution was to come through the wall with the wires and somehow try to run them inside the house (cavity wall) to the boiler - yet another challenge. This was why I wanted the wiring installed during the build process, but builder was uncooperative!
The fall back option was the Nest, and I must say it has worked without any problems since the installation. It links through the internet to the local weather situation (outside temperature) and appears to make adjustments accordingly.
Initial installation of the Nest was a challenge as none of the local heating engineers had any experience of installing the Nest system, but all said they would "give it a go!". No thanks, I do not want to be a guinea pig for their learning!! The authorised Nest installer did it in 30 minutes and gave me a comprehensive run through of the controls - not that much instruction is required.
So overall a less expensive method of installing weather compensation - that works.
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