another gas explosion.

[REDSAW]

got me thinking this one as its only a couple of miles from me and i did some work to the next door of the said house that is detatched from it, albeit was last year though.

looks like the contractor ot city homes carry the can for this one.

best wishes to those injured.

Two people have been left seriouly injured after an explosion at a house in Stockhill Lane, Nottingham.

 

[Puddle]

"A spokeswoman for Nottingham City Homes has confirmed a new boiler was fitted at the property six weeks ago. However, investigations have not yet been carried out so it is not known whether the explosion involved the boiler."

some engineer will not be sleeping well,hopefully has nothing to do with it,but until officially told,not a nice position to be in

Not nice when people injured,hope they recover ok,however injuries do not sound minor unfortunately

Sounds like maybe cooker incident

 

[oldplumber]

wouldnt wish this one on anyone, hope for installers sake its a cooker/hob problem, poor sod

 

[Mbear]

Sounds like a non fsd hob being left on by accident to me. I certainly hope so for the boiler installers sake

 

[REDSAW]

debris was found 70yards away (front window), 2 kids upstairs blown out of windows onto back garden, half rear wall gone.
lady has lost an arm and leg apparently to local news, she and her partner was in the house so i think it was a little more than an internall hob leak, more of a cavity explosion.

got a job in the house behind this one on thursday, half the roof and bricks are in this garden apparently, so the custard says.

 

[Mbear]

debris was found 70yards away (front window), 2 kids upstairs blown out of windows onto back garden, half rear wall gone.
lady has lost an arm and leg apparently to local news, she and her partner was in the house so i think it was a little more than an internall hob leak, more of a cavity explosion.

got a job in the house behind this one on thursday, half the roof and bricks are in this garden apparently, so the custard says.

I don't know mate, for talking sake.......
if the hobs left on long enough then someone lights a ciggie, boom.

Might not even be gas for all we know though

 

[REDSAW]

yes pretty sure it is gas as said on tv confirmed gas explosion. the place is swarming with gas engineers, national grid and h.s.e.

directly opposite this house is the fire station and nottm main college f.e. for plumbing and gas and the incident is restricting entry to the college, so a good feild trip there for the students doing their acs then.

 

[Blackcatgas]

yes pretty sure it is gas as said on tv confirmed gas explosion. the place is swarming with gas engineers, national grid and h.s.e.

directly opposite this house is the fire station and nottm main college f.e. for plumbing and gas and the incident is restricting entry to the college, so a good feild trip there for the students doing their acs then.

Is this in Basford Martin?

 

[REDSAW]

Is this in Basford Martin?

yes, its opposite stockhill fire station. 79 stockhill lane, the road is closed in bth directions to the a610 nuthall rd and will be for tommorrow at least for forensics.

 

[tamz]

I was doing some stand in ESP work a few years back when Transco were doing a work to rule and got a call to an explosion in Fife.
Turned out the guy had left some soup or whatever (they never found it ) on the cooker turned down low and went to the pub. Came back a couple of hours later full of the sauce with a *** in his mouth, flame had gone out and blew the front off the house and i mean the full front. It was a 70's 2 storey terrace with 12" butts between the houses and big 10ft windows and lining on the front. Blew the lot away with bits lying over 100 yards away.
Amazingly he had not even a scratch on him and was wandering around asking for a light

 

[newbie1]

now not saying it was but i am sick of going to propertys with work done by non registered cowboys

went to a property yest with old ideal w rs450 beast,,,big id warning label from 2009 case seals gone signs of spillage flue too close to window and 1 inch away from air brick and has a kitchen cupboard built round it with no airflow,,tenant says several people have been round to relight and one i know is a 6129er no gas experience
just had a beko cooker arranged by letting agent,,,,no fsd cooker hose kinked and sitting on floor bayonet facing upwards

asked her if anyone had gone near the meter on any visit and noone had at all

phoned one of the monkeys who was involved in the cooker for details of people who fitted cooker ,,ime still waiting for the call back with the details



pretty soon now i dont care if its the done thing or not but i am going to start reporting to gas safe ..this girl had a little kid and so far she has an id boiler and a cooker with no fsd in a flat and noone so far has even done a tightness test

 

[REDSAW]

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Was the fitter registered?

Seems he may have been.

Seems having an ACS may not be the guarantee of safety its supposed to be?

 

[newbie1]

seems a bit of a sweeping statement bernie you really do have a bit of a hang up about acs..what is it

 

[Bernie2]

No newbie1

I don't have any hang up about ACS. Its just that perhaps some who hold it, seem to perhaps inadvertently comment as though it entitles them to be a judge and jury of anybody who doesn't.

My view is that people who hold ACS make mistakes, just like everybody else, they are human, so we cannot assume it makes us any better than the average manual worker in any other field, except we perhaps have to read more and take more responsibility.

But then so does an IEE sparks, when he or she signs off an inspection perhaps?

And I am following on from another mail that said without knowing, that they must have been "cowboys" who did the job.

Point I was making, is that even with an ACS people can act like "cowboys", it has nothing to do with ACS how people behave or whether they are Gas Safe registered or not.

Lets just say it was an accident and stop pulling the people who did the job to pieces, virtually declaring them incompetent. It was an accident I assume, and not a deliberate act. The HSE will find the person responsible and take them to court.

But it may be a registered gas fitter who forgot something and not those so often blamed "cowboys".

In point I have never seen a comparison of gas related accidents involving so called unregistered "cowboys" and those involving registered gas fitters.

It would be nice to know and of course it would have to be organised by an independent body.

If its found to be mostly registered gas fitters that have more accidents, which is possible considering they probably do far more work with gas than cowboys do. Then it perhaps points to something wrong somewhere, which we may be able to fix.

But if we continually blame "cowboys" will we look at ourselves to find out if it is us?

 

[Puddle]

I have been chastised in the past because I love my job and take it seriously, as the trade has developed and have not hidden, but tried to keep pace with it, as new developments have come along, I have show some resistance when I think they are wrong or in conceived but have abided by the rules and endeavoured to follow guide lines and recommendations required, whether it be extra training, courses, registrations, membership or different insurance policies required to meet the demands put on me
I have gone to considerable expense to do so ,I am no martyr and get rewarded, through the works I can do and the job satisfaction involved
I am want you call a modern tradesman, I can hold my own against the next man, I have no need to hide when questions are asked about works I have done or when enquiries are made about my qualifications or other registrations, if I make a mistake, it is just that a mistake and yes being human, you can make them, however I am also capable of correcting them and any problems that arise, as a responsible tradesmen, I shall face or correct to the best of my ability
There has been a terrible tragedy, people hurt and damage done, at this point nobody knows why or how, we know people have suffered and a boiler was apparently put in a few weeks ago.
It could have been a unregistered person or a registered person. at this point we do not know, the explosion could have been caused by the new boiler ,it may not have, by the evidence at present ,it looks as if that was not the case in my opinion
However I find it offensive, that a fellow respected member of the forum, finds the incident a good excuses to deface the reputation and integrity of law abiding gas safe registered plumbers, which fall into the group described above and bear no resemblance to ‘cowboy gas plumbers ‘plying there so called trade as they seem fit ,evading responsibility or accountability
It is as if the member is almost wishing it is a gas safe plumber involved, who has made a mistake ,so he can propagate and justify his mistaken beliefs, this I find very sad.
I do not have to look at myself to question if I am a cowboy, if I make a mistake
Only a fool would think trained, qualified gas plumbers could possibly make more mistakes than unqualified, illegal gas plumbing cowboys
It maybe a gas registered plumber who has made a mistake, if he has followed all training and registrations that still does not put him in the 'cowboy' category if you make a mistake. If you are working illegally, you are working illegally, whatever happens in the authorised regulated industry
How can you have a accident if the works were under taken by an illegal gas plumber, you can not, all you can have is a criminal offence, end of, there is no justification for defending illegal gas work that may result in an incident, being in the catagree of a accident
As stated before, to accuse ACS gas plumbers of sometimes acting like cowboy’s, is just a argument of a desperate man, with no real substance behind his claims ,just going for dramatic effect, it may work on some less informed but not on experience members here
At this stage ,my thought go out to those involved and hope the enquiry discovers the cause ,to help such situations from happening again and have no wish for political gain at this time without further information in front of me
I may get in trouble for this post and it is purely my personal opinion; however I was offended by the post above and as this is a public forum, feel it should not go unanswered

imho

 

[tamz]

I agree with Puddle.
How many of us have heard a report on the radio of a gas incident in wherever and though **** i was around there yesterday, i hope it is not that one.
No matter how well trained or good someone may be at their job or the precautions they may take, no one is infallible. Anyone can make a mistake or an oversight.

 

[newbie1]

Nice post puddle
it seems gas engineers who play by the rules do their training and study are percieved by some to be elitist
This is not the case but we are very aware that to do work on gas is a tremendous responsibility and such responsibility is not taken lightly and this does mean some may misinterpret our words when dealing with non registered/illegal gas fitters who i blve to be potential manslaughter cases
Once and for all the only people touching gas should be trained registered gas fitters not members of the public /not diy dave and his socket set and yes its possible for a registered engineer to make a mistake of course it is but when you see some of the horror installations done by people who are not trained and registered then maybe you would understand our attitude
So if you want to be an engineer then accept the responsibilitys we carry and dont knock us

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! Puddle,

I don't mind you voicing your opinions at all, even though they may appear to be contrary to my own. And no you should not respect my opinions at all, just try and look at them as they stand, not the person saying it.

I have said nothing against, registered ACS holders except they can make mistakes like anybody else.

To suggest they should make less mistakes as registered individuals, is probably correct.

To suggest overall as a group they make less mistakes however, may not be correct.

If for instance registered gas fitters do say 90% of jobs, it obviously means they do more gas work and so have more chance of getting it wrong, compared to "cowboys" who only do about 10% of the work.

That is the law of probability at work not me being critical.

And yes a person with an ACS is more likely to be better informed and aware of the safety aspects of gas work than a person without one.

But that as I have pointed out, in other mails, is not necessarily so, there are many professionals in the gas industry just as informed as an ACS holder about gas work, in point they may very well have written the ACS exams.

What I perhaps rail against, is ordinary people coming on the forum looking for advice to be told to go away and get a proper person to do the job.

A forum is a place where everybody can come on and voice their opinion regardless of how impractical or misinformed it may be.

There is after all a section for those who want to talk only to their peer group. Which is also okay by me.

But on the open forum I don't think its right to refuse to help people by sharing your information with them.

Let's be honest none of us personally own gas knowledge and it is not copyright, its something we learn and it should be freely available to all. I can't get with this wanting to keep knowledge to yourself or sell it at the highest possible price. It appears to do nothing for the trade at all, except perhaps help produce ill or mis informed trades people.

The forum was never a place to refuse anybody information before.

And yes I have nothing against conscientious people who work hard and keep themselves up to date on things. That is what I would expect everybody to do, who earns a living from gas fitting.

But even they, would probably find it difficult to encompass every aspect and be able to immediately call to mind everything involved in gas work.

And by not being able to do so, it leaves even the best informed person, open to making mistakes, does that brand them as a "cowboy" or a human who makes mistakes?

As to unregistered "cowboys" who work for money doing gas work, that is unacceptable, the law says so. That is clear to everybody and a law I would agree with.

But if we start blaming everything that goes wrong on "cowboys" we may be in danger of overlooking our own faults and that is not right.

And I suppose even "cowboys" do not intend to harm anybody, it is their apparent willingness to break the law that is the problem.

As I have said before a gas fitter with 50 years experience on all types of work can come into the category of "cowboy" the minute his registration or ACS runs out?

And then stops being a "cowboy" the minute he registers or takes another ACS?

Its a bit like saying "Today your a gas fitter" tomorrow you may not be.

In that case experience counts for nothing.

Is that right?

Going by the number of companies that seem to refuse to start people without experience the obvious answer is no.

 

[oldplumber]

agree with the previous posters, i worked hard to get my tickets and at times i worry that i may have got something wrong and go back and double check , much to the customers amusement, however there are people out there who have no qualms about working illegally and with a poor quality of work. I would have no problem reporting them if i come across poor quality work, its not elietist, just that i invested a lot of time and money and they are happy to invest little and charge as if they have done the time. i would love to see all merchants and sheds banned from selling gas products to none registered people, much like australia is doing as far as im aware. you cant go and buy dangerous drugs unless someone licensed has issued you with a prescription and it could and should be the same for gas items. why would anyone object, it would make for a safer world all round and wouldnt cost anything to implement

 

[CMairiD]

This is not the case but we are very aware that to do work on gas is a tremendous responsibility and such responsibility is not taken lightly

I take my hat off to you, sir! This is not an attitude I see very often.

Back to the blast ...

My tutor mentioned (if I'm remembering correctly) that there tends to be more gas leaks on the service during the summer because the soggy, wet winter ground acts as a sleeve hiding existing leaks. When the ground dries out, the 'sleeve' cracks, exposing the leak.

I know it's all speculation at this point, but could the blast pattern have come from the service side?

 

[newbie1]

thank god ime not the only one that goes back and checks things twice just in case

 

[Bernie2]

Nobody is saying that you do not have to work hard to get your ACS.

In reality though, as I have pointed out in the past, training agencies are offering ACS on 4 - 6 week courses, with perhaps a 70 day practical experience add on. I am not sure about that though.

So one month you could be working for the national minimum wage of about £5.86 per hour and the next asking for £80 per hour as a self employed person.

In that instance, is it perhaps fair to ask, can 4-6 weeks work be classed as long hard work?

Okay I know, some may have come into the game like myself in one of the old ways, but that it seems is not the modern way.

We have to realise that the old ways have changed and its probably easy to get into the game today, isn't that why so many want to get into it and why so many trainers advertise courses in it?

That is perhaps the reality.

 

[newbie1]

blimey i must be charging too little 80.00 an hour no wonder everyone thinks gas guys are minted

 

[emerald]

blimey i must be charging too little 80.00 an hour no wonder everyone thinks gas guys are minted

lucky to get £20 - £30 down here

 

[REDSAW]

thank god ime not the only one that goes back and checks things twice just in case

thought i was paranoid too, what do you say when you knock on door tho, er, think i forgot to connect gas pipe?.

latest news is, the boiler was tested 6 days ago and was good. it was found to be intact in the rubble?., not sure what this means. but reports admitedly by the media seem to be looking at another cause.

dont overlook the possibility that the persons involved could have been on this site looking for advice on how to test the sparking electrodes circuitry on their w/b 350 as the boiler wouldnt light

by the way, i think the meters on these houses are at the front of the property.
the boiler was installed by city homes or there contractors.
my guess is, a fractured gas service pipe (possibly caused during installation) bellow ground causing cavity explosion, come accross one already this year as n/grid told me there is over 7,500 sub standard installations by the contractors in this areas where the l/c/s pipes are rotting.

 

[Bernie2]

Probably a realistic price is £20 or so. But some on the forum say they get £80.

In one way, an ACS could be thought of as being like a full driving licence. That to is a heavy responsibility.
A car is a guided missile with many variables that can lead to accidents involving many people. But you need one to legally drive a car, as you do an ACS to do gas work.

Lets be honest though, although people pass their driving test or get an ACS do they always follow the rules and regulations as laid down in the Highway Code and the Gas Regs?

It would be silly of me to say yes wouldn't it, going by all the reports in the papers about speeding and so on.

Well an ACS is probably the same.

So holding an ACS is only as good as the person holding it. It is not a guarantee of good work. So we should be a bit circumspect if we think it is and ask ourselves why Gas Safe wants to see your actual work before they pass you as fit to work on gas.

The reason is I suppose is that Gas Safe is run by experienced people and know what goes on in the industry and so want to see what you can really do, in practical terms.

Incidentally CORGI did the same thing.

I was on first name terms with one of our CORGI inspectors in a company I worked for. And being fair they usually know what goes on in real terms.
That of course leaves the ACS as it is, an examination to find out if you know gas safety. But that is all it is, holding one does not guarantee you will work safely.

I hope I am not insulting anybody by what I write I certainly do not intend that. All I am trying to be is realistic. Many people are undoubtedly hard working and conscientious about gas safety and keeping up to date, they are a good example to us all.

But what happens under bonus schemes and time constraints?

 

[REDSAW]

putting it that way bern, i agree.
everyone with a driving licence will bend a motor eventually for whatever reason. so what is easier, driving a car or acs, or is it down to simply repetitiveness or an accident waiting to happen?.

brings me to the second point, i worked with plenty of short-cutters, and been a passenger with crap drivers cutting corners to.

my pylosophy is, life's experiences resemble how you drive your car and the logic of how that car works. and if you have not passed your tests but happen to have a horse..............

 

[Assessor Gas]

very Sad and unnecessary.The HSE have been desperately trying to bring compulsory Gas Inspections to the private population. As yet i guess 90% of the UK Private households are not checking their gas annually, and worse still there still are not enough suitably able engineers in the field to look after them, hence the recent changes, and lack of public awareness adverts in the past 10years. Doesn't look too good either when it is a registered engineer who causes the event. I have not looked into this event, but as a field assessor there is a long way to go in bringing greater public awareness, and more importantly a higher level of training, re-training and inspection of gas fitters in the field. Illegal guys will always try it on, but the Qualified and Registered Guys need to Show a Professional Front. I have watched as engineers of long standing every month are helped out of their assessments and advised to get some training before trying again, Frightening. Many poor fellas out there just don't realize what they need to because it was never taught properly. Negligence is one thing. Let down by the system is another. Come on Gas Safe Let's see some more re-training not just re-assessment a lot changes in 5 years, we know there aren't enough guys to inspect out there now either, so i hope there are some plans in place to Bring Greater Public Awareness and better ways of assessing training needs.

Smile, There tend to be more leaks in the summer because thats when the contractors clear there service books (Meaning local authority and HA Contractors). Having QA'd a lot of these type of contractor, the biggest number of leaks est over 100 per day, are due to engineers incorrectly Tightness testing their test points !! (Many engineers forget to turn the burners back on before pasting the BP Test Nipple !!) but it is unlikely that something like this would cause a big explosion. It only takes 5% per volume for nat gas, but explosions are normally appliances (ie hobs) left open without a flame failure accidentaly for several hours or an escape into a cavity (Remember your sleeve and seals) !

Bernie you are absolutely spot on. Working on the field and centre assessment side throughout the UK, i have always been horrified that the ACS are sufficient. The set up is not even close to that in a normal domestic property, and as such simple things go out the window. Passing the ACS in my opinion does not come close to the needs out there. I train and assess in the workplace and every single day i come across something a registered engineer has put through as OK. I could horrify you with the list, and if i am seeing it daily, Both Corgi, and Now Gas Safe have got a big job on their hands to get the industry internally safe before they can hope to put an advert on T.V. showing such an event (Explosion) and advising people to get their gas checked. Who will check it, the gas man who's van is often outside the house that goes bang ??? (I can't comment on this one), but historically that is the case. Ouch,

The Big Companies are charging a lot more because people trust them. If you trust your own work, you know its more valuable than the other guy that may go there and miss something. There is a great deal of money to be earned selling gas safety and putting right the errors of yesteryear, but it seems most engineers are focusing on everything but that. Anyhowz i have met engineers all over and £120 per hour is not reserved just for london, it can be earned anywhere in the UK when the customer feels it is value for money ! Just my experience. My customers used to say i was expensive but always had me back, because i was cheaper than the last guy who cost them a fortune in misdiagnosed parts, and poor service. On the same note i went out with a guy checking his work once and he had no problem charging the customer £720 for a fan, on top of his attendance fee of £140, even i couldn't get my head round that one, but he is e repeat customer, loves and trusts the guy, so guess he felt he got a good deal. P.s. he only gave 6 weeks warranty too, ouch.