What's wrong with copperand soldered joint's

[Ian10261]

I was asked by a mate to go round to a bungalow he's just bought and sort out the plumbing behind the kitchen sink. Anyway, been round today to find a kitchen fitter waiting for me to deal with the problem. The problem being a mass of plastic pipe and pushfit fittings literally hanging off the wall, not a pipe clip in sight and a note next to the stop tap saying "don't turn the water on". Turns out that the chump who did this is also fitting some new rads and has cut off all the drops about a foot above the floor and left the tales in a bucket presumably just incase someone does turn on the water coz the lazy b' couldn't even be bothered to at least tie up the ball cock on the f & e tank. Several things spring to mind here, firstly, judging by the coil of 10mm plastic lying on the floor this bloke is going for the easy option forgetting how the hell he's going to sqeeze bulky pushfit joints into 38mmx16mm trunking on the existing drops. Secondly, all those mechanical joints behaind the kitchen sink (inaccessable) is just asking for trouble. I dont know how long it took the guy to make a pigs ear of this but it only took me just short of an hour to rip it out and replace the whole lot with properly supported and permanently jointed copper. Don't get me wrong here, i do keep some plastic pipe and fittings in the van but ONLY for certain applications where its plain impossible to use owt else. To be honest i was kinda glad this bloke wasn't there, i dont like confrontations and i'm pretty sure that was on the cards if he had have been there to watch me scrap his work. Point in question here is just whats wrong with copper apart from the price (maybe i've just answered me own question there), done properly it'll last a lifetime, ok,it takes longer to install but personally i'd rather be driving home safe in the knowledge that a pushfit joint is'nt gonna blow apart or did i remember to put an insert in here or there plus the fact that copper just looks so much the better job if it's done right. And that brings me onto the question of does anyone out there really give a toss anymore? I for one actually do, i take pride in my work and maybe thats why i'll never make millions out of this game but i enjoy what i do so i'm happy enough. I'm fairly new on here and i'm sure this topic has been aired more than once, but i'm curious as to everyone elses view on this.


WARNING, FORUM RULES = NO SWEARING.

 

[Blackcatgas]

I dont mind a bit of plastic where its not seen.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

my views the same as yours plastic has its uses but i fit copper out of choice,if i do use plastic its with inserts and compression fittings

 

[PlumbBobBob]

if i have to use plastic i use compression with inserts. hardly ever use pushfit. much prefer to use copper though.

 

[Kimou]

Well you know what...

"You'll never come a'cropper with copper
Always use plastic if it's really drastic"

As they say in Milton Keynes

 

[Ian10261]

my views the same as yours plastic has its uses but i fit copper out of choice,if i do use plastic its with inserts and compression fittings

Yep, thats my preferred method if i have to use plastic, always use metal inserts too. Nice to know i'm not on my own.

 

[Ian10261]

Well you know what...

"You'll never come a'cropper with copper
Always use plastic if it's really drastic"

As they say in Milton Keynes

Dare i say this? Always use plastic if you're a complete............

 

[gaspastemania]

All tails or pipework on show in copper imo
I have done uponor installs where thats has been on show and thats quite good basically because its white and the fittings are neat and not bulky .

 

[Blackcatgas]

Dare i say this? Always use plastic if you're a complete............

....and competant plumber who is prepared to embrace new and alternative technology?.

 

[Blackcatgas]

All tails or pipework on show in copper imo
I have done uponor installs where thats has been on show and thats quite good basically because its white and the fittings are neat and not bulky .[/QUOTE

Uponor pipe is the "daddy" of pipes.

 

[stevetheplumber]

scroll back 60 years
aye you'll not catch me using that new fangled copper, lead were good enough for my father and his father before
ludites rule ok

 

[WaterTight]

the question shouldn't be what's wrong with copper it should be what's wrong with plastic?

actually it shouldn't even be that. it should be "is that which makes plastic worse than copper bad enough to make copper the preferred choice given plastic's benefits (ease and speed of installation, demountability, no soldering, price)?"

for many people, especially those for who plumbing is a just a job, the answer it would appear is no.

 

[AWheating]

most plumbing systems are good, cant guarantee the person fitting it is any good tho!

 

[Guest123]

Just a note about copper and I wonder if others are finding the same thing in that a lot of copper pipe for sale just now is poor quality and in many ways like thin wall tube. I'm good with a bending spring which I sometimes use for speed over the bending machine, but a lot of the copper pipe just ripples no matter how careful I am. I suspect that perhaps a lot of pipe is being imported and not as good quality as our BS Kitemark stuff?

I use Speedfit and have not had any problems of any kind on a install. The problems I get to fix are builders, joiners, diy'ers trying to be plumbers and not following the manufacturers installation . Seen many joints with no inserts, even joints with flux in them. No wonder it gets a bad name. Incedantally, we've all been using plastic pushfit, glue and plastic compression fittings for years....on waste pipe. No stigma attached to that then?

 

[Ian10261]

....and competant plumber who is prepared to embrace new and alternative technology?.

Fair comment, i once inherrited a job that had been started off in Hep2o so thats how we finished it, 10mm rad pipes exiting wall via patress boxes and into right angled push fit rad valves makes for a tidy (and quick) install. Still cant bring meself to trust the pipe and fittings especially when hot though, feels like nowt more than a bit of owd hose pipe...but thats just me.

 

[Kimou]

....and competant plumber who is prepared to embrace new and alternative technology?.

We have to. Plastic is not just plastic, it has various form; PE PEX PVC etc and uses designed specifically the right job. In some instances it is far better suited than copper. This is something that the 'traditional' plumber overlooks with a 'if it's not broke don't fix it' reasoning. But this attitude is being phased out with new entrants into the sector.
I do have tendency to use copper more often as I feel there is more of a specialist aspect and professionalism to its application, but I can't tell you the amount of times I wished I wasn't such a stickler and gone for an easier option for myself. I just swap and change only when I feel it's required.

 

[gaspastemania]

My only vex with plastic is that anyone can use it and encourages the diy'er to do small works at home with it . This i sometimes feel is one of several reasons why we dont get the phone call to install /pipe up kitchen sink etc . Most diy'ers would shun away from trying to solder in a new kitchen cupboard ,,,,,scorchio everywhere!!!

 

[Kimou]

Uponor pipe is the "daddy" of pipes.

A bugger if you have to do a repair job. No one seems to carry their fittings

 

[Kimou]

My only vex with plastic is that anyone can use it and encourages the diy'er to do small works at home with it .!

Pipoes don't do that, people do that.
They can still use copper and push fit fittings and Youtube.

 

[gaspastemania]

Pipoes don't do that, people do that.
They can still use copper and push fit fittings and Youtube.

fair point even the commercial works now favour mapress
Maybe i'm old fashioned

 

[Blackcatgas]

A bugger if you have to do a repair job. No one seems to carry their fittings

LOL! "myles, you know that pipe work you did to our sink? well ive got the father inlaw round and hes tried to tee into it for our ice making fridge and he thought he could just use a compression tee and it wont fit......."

Il be round in a minute!.

 

[Ian10261]

My only vex with plastic is that anyone can use it and encourages the diy'er to do small works at home with it . This i sometimes feel is one of several reasons why we dont get the phone call to install /pipe up kitchen sink etc . Most diy'ers would shun away from trying to solder in a new kitchen cupboard ,,,,,scorchio everywhere!!!

Has anyone looked at it like this though? If it wasn't for the advent of plastic then the likes of joe public probably wouldn;t even think about attempting ANY linf of plumbing thus more work for the likes of qualified plumbers.

 

[TC.]

there is a time and a place for plastic, eg feeding a pipe between joists or inbetween stud work, but always always use copper where it is gonna be on show or where it is the most suitable and practicable! copper soldered joints are by far the most reliable

 

[WaterTight]

I think one of the best criticisms of plastic is rats chewing through it. They'll chew through insulation and pipe in one sitting.

 

[gaspastemania]

Uponor supposed to be vermin resistant ( dont quote me on it tho)
Had a spec which used alot of uponor in a roof space of a pub and they had rat problem , the designer used uponor because it was suppose to be rat proof .