Discuss TRV pipe cold. Return pipe hot. Rad hot at top, cool at bottom. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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rhubarbe

Our kitchen rad is hot at the top but quite a bit cooler at the bottom. It was very cold at the bottom until the other day when e had a heating engineer to take off the rad and blast the inside with a hosepipe to clean out the built-up gunge.

Anyway, now we have the TRV valve and pipe below it which are lukewarm - no matter what setting we have dialled in on TRV, and the return pipe is red hot.

I have taken off the top of the TRV and the valve underneath moves in and out OK but doesn't make any difference if I press it in or leave it npressed, the pipe doesn't warm up.

Am I the numpty, or the man who fitted the rad?
 
Try opening the lockshield valve more (assuming the radiator doesn't need bleeding).
 
Lockshield valve would be the one opposite the TRV side - what I would call the valve on the return side?
 
Turned it three times clockwise from above. Pipe is hot, valve is hot, pipe leading from valve into rad is hot. Top of rad is hot, bottom still lukewarm. Pipe below TRV valve (the supposed flow) is on the cool side of lukewarm..
 
Have removed TRV head, valve moves quite freely. I can't get the brass valve ferrule out because it is chamfered...
 
Has it been working fine until recently?

It sounds as if the lockshield is on the flow and the TRV is on the return. The flow is hot and the return is the cooler water. TRVs should be fitted on the flow. Nowdays you can buy 2-way TRVs so it doesn't matter which end they go on (but best practice is to put it on the flow).

If the radiator has always been cool, then the person who came in and cleaned out the rad hasn't done anything wrong (except not checking it was working properly when he finished!)

If the TRV is at the wrong end then the valves need changing over which means draining the system. If you go down this route then it might be worth checking all the other radiators to make sure they're working properly too.

If you take the TRV to pieces you'll have a flood ...
 
Is it possible that the TRV has been put on the return side by mistake and the rad is filling from the retrun by convection only?

This rad has never worked very well and it was a retro fit when we had a boiler fitted (we were on a back boiler before). The guy that fitted the boiler (never worked properly) and the rad (never worked properly), would have given Wyatt Earp a run for his money in the best cowboy of all time stakes.
 
We seem to be thinking along the same lines. I am reluctant to have it drained as it has a week's wages in Fernox inside the system - this is an Air Source Heat Pump system now, since we scrapped the LPG combi..
 
Turn off all other rads and see if this gets the rad circulating properly. The system might just need balancing.
 
You can always see if there's a plumber willing to do a wet change - ie without draining the system. It's risky but saves draining and I'm not sure the plumber will want to carry the can if it gets out of hand. He'll need a wet vaccuum to empty the radiator and remove it, then quick work to change the valves. Not something I'd want to do with a downstairs radiator.

Re the cost, Fernox is around ÂŁ15 for 10 radiators.
 
Get a plumber with an electric pipe freezer to do it - if there is enough room on the rad tails to connect it to it should be straightforward.
 
There's about nine inches of 12mm pipe above the floor on both flow and return sides. Could be 15mm, I'm not sure.
 
OK, and update. Sorry it's a bit long-winded.

First off, our TRV is Bulldog and I do not know if it is bi-directional because I cannot see any direction arrow cast on the body of the valve - and I have spent some time looking.

OK, I update, based upon what I have found out since.

I turned all the rads in the system off by turning their TRVs down to 0.

I left the kitchen rad on full by TRV with the heat pump running and the room stat turned well up.

After five minutes the pipe under the TRV started to heat up and eventually became quite hot, though not so hot as the pipe under the lockshield valve.

The rad itself became hotter, with heat eventually returning to the bottom half of the rad, though it never got as hot as the top of the rad.

I took the head off the TRV and pushed the valve up and down for quite a long time. I gave the valve stem a couple of taps with a spanner.

I listened for the pump by turning the TRV valve up and down (0-5). On 4 and 5 you can hear the pump using a screwdriver to your ear on the top rad valve on the lockshield side. Any lower than 4 and you can't hear the pump.

During the time I had all the rest of the rads on 0 by TRV, the pipe under the lockshield valve got very hot indeed - much hotter than the pipe under the TRV, though the latter did become quite hot itself.

My father in law (MK2) says he thinks that it's a sticky valve, but I disagree with him because:

With all rads turned off the water in the return would be hot enough to make the pipe under the TRV much hotter than normal - just by heat conduction of the water in that short bit of pipe from return main pipe to TRV - assuming the hottest pipe with the lockshield valve on it is in fact the flow and not the return.

We then turned all the other rads back on and the rad in the kitchen cooled off quite quickly, as did the pipe under the TRV valve - though the pipe under the lockshield valve was still very hot.

Father in law says that the valve is working because you can hear the pump using scredriver, but I say this cannot be so because the rad cannot be heated from a cool pipe under the TRV and pass it to a return under the lockshield that is far hotter.

I examined all the other rads and in every case the flow (with TRV on top) is hotter than return pipe with lockshield on top.

The only exception to this is the new bedroom rad (fitted by the same blokes who did the kitchen rad) where the return + lockshield side is warmer than the flow + TRV side. This rad however does get very hot with no coldspots and I conclude that the TRV on this rad is of the newer 2 way type.

I conclude that the kitchen rad needs to have the valves switched round using an electric pipe freezer so that a drain of the entire system is not needed and that it would make good sense to replace the existing TRV with a new one that we know to be 2 way.

Would the above make sense to you or do you see a problem with my conclusion or indeed have anything to add that I may have missed.

At this stage I am discounting things like blocked pipes because the TRV pipe did get very hot (by conduction only IMHO) when it was the only rad switched on.
 
Only problem is that being an air source heat pump installation the pipes are full of very expensive 25-30% antifreeze, so what sort of electric pipe freezer would block those up for long enough to chnge the valves?
 
If your system was plumbed in around say up to six months ago then I think you could probably call the plumber back in to fix the problem at his expense.

If this radiator was already plumbed in then the plumber could expect you to have said that it wasn't functioning properly otherwise he'd have done something at the installation of the rest of the system.

There maybe some more "ifs" so perhaps a compromise of sorts with the plumber if he was at fault?
 
It was fitted about three years ago but since it was connected to an LPG boiler (costing ÂŁ1 an hour to run) we just used the electric underfloor heating in the kitchen so we've never really tested the radiator to see if it worked. On the rare occasion we had the LPG boiler on, we had the underfloor on as well, so we might have felt the top of the rad, but never the bottom..
 
That's a shame - but an escape for the plumber.

I suppose there's not much else to suggest other than the above.
 
Look at the top of the lockshield and turn it anticlockwise as far as it will go. remove trv head. turn off other rads. does it work now? if so it needs balancing, get installer back.

There should be no blockages in pipework as you have antifreeze in the system and should have been flushed before it was filled.

If the system needs draining dont put it down the drain, just drain it back into the containers it came in for re -use.
 
Oh and also if its a non bi directional trv it will still work the wrong way round
 
OK, thanks. The temperature fall between flow and return is much greater than it should be. Does this mean lockshield needs to be tightened, or loosened?
 
An air source heat pump should have been set up for a 20c diff across flow and return on all rads if done correctly when installed.

What heat pump you got?
 
Ecodan 8.5kW... None of the rads were touched.. Wasn't a new install though.. Rads were already there.

Heat pump itself has been great so far.
 
Its part of the commissioning to set up and ballance all the rads,, and you have to use an approved installer to do this as mitsubishi wont sell to people that arn't?
 
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They rather ran out of time when they were installing and commissioning the pump. Got to be midnight... Didn't fit an ECO/BOOST switch, either.
 
If not set up correctly you will not be getting the optimum effiency from the heat pump, phone mitsubishi tech line and see what they think to the install
 
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I'll have a word with the installer. I do have a good relationship with them..
 
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