The Green Deal

[JAH HEATING]

Just reading a bit about it in the monthly mag, I have an old 1920s house that has an old myson Apollo and gravity hot water...

no insulation, or double glazing with me being a landlord if I got an assessor out.... Would the works sThat got carried on, simply go onto the tenants fuel bill ?

I'm going to otherwise get the system changed by myself an pay for the windows to be done

 

[tomplumbuk]

I'm afraid I think its the landlord that gets to pay unfortunately according to this guide - Green Deal For Tenants

'The Green Deal scheme involves the homeowner, in this case your landlord, taking out a loan to fund the improvements needed to bring the property up to the required energy efficient standard.'

 

[Mike Jackson]

Read the next line.

 

[tomplumbuk]

is it not still the landlords debt to pay though whether absorbed through bills over 25 years or not?

 

[CES]

The charge will be paid by the tenant if occupied, if the property is vacant the Landlord foots the bill until the property is let again.

 

[poorman]

How I read it, the cost, bill, is paid through your electricity bill, so if the landlord doesn't use any electricity does he still have to fork out?

 

[CES]

The landlord will still have a standing charge on the meter to pay for the green deal.

 

[eaton]

It's all abit vague this but easy way to look is tenant pays for it on their bills, if they move out ll pays until new tenant in.

 

[tamz]

L/lords can get it done for free through ECO (affordable warmth). Another scheme to kick the small guy in the nuts.

 

[diamondgas]

I do work for a letting agent with loads of old appliances and the type of tenants that'll qualify for ECO ... They're getting all their properties checked out free to see if they qualify for replacement!

Does anyone out there know who gets to do the installs? that is can anyone get the work or do you have to register somewhere or other?

 

[CES]

Youll have to register as an installer and conform to PAS2030 , oh and pay another fee for the pleasure of working.. Im glad Im out of this game now, they wont be happy until the small guy doesnt exist imo.

 

[diamondgas]

Cheers CES ... I thought I'd heard somewhere that you need to pay to be accredited or sub for a credited company for a pittence!!! Looks like my repairs income will be hit too if they get rid of all the old boilers and install 7-10yrs warranty boilers........!!! It sounds like things are going to get a bit harder for anyone wanting to set up or even continue to work as a one man band..!

 

[Kev the gas]

Cheers CES ... I thought I'd heard somewhere that you need to pay to be accredited or sub for a credited company for a pittence!!! Looks like my repairs income will be hit too if they get rid of all the old boilers and install 7-10yrs warranty boilers........!!! It sounds like things are going to get a bit harder for anyone wanting to set up or even continue to work as a one man band..!

Diamondgas,

^^^^ exactly the conversation I had with the Worcester rep on Monday, without sounding too doom and gloom we have a few changes coming in the industry.

So far manufacturers do not seem to be interested in the rest of the central heating system, hopefully this will provide a small amount of work for the future!!

 

[Howsie]

I'm afraid I think its the landlord that gets to pay unfortunately

Quite rightly IMO.

 

[diamondgas]

Diamondgas,

^^^^ exactly the conversation I had with the Worcester rep on Monday, without sounding too doom and gloom we have a few changes coming in the industry.

So far manufacturers do not seem to be interested in the rest of the central heating system, hopefully this will provide a small amount of work for the future!!

It's certainly good news for landlords/tenants and the others able to request a replacement. Who's doing the work though? You can't just 'magic' installers from thin air? I'm guessing this'll push installers to 'lower' their standards and pricing to get at least some work in? With a bit of luck the demand will outweigh these companies workforce and private guys will get the overspill?

Does anyone know how much the accreditation costs? Not that I'm after it as I do maintenance and repair with only the odd one or two installs here and there

 

[tamz]

Who's doing the work though? You can't just 'magic' installers from thin air? I'm guessing this'll push installers to 'lower' their standards and pricing to get at least some work in? With a bit of luck the demand will outweigh these companies workforce and private guys will get the overspill?

Every big company and their dog is doing it Steve, even BandQ. It is a free for all for the big boys. The only over spill we will get is if we are daft enough to work for these bandits.
Take a look on any job search site. There are hundreds of ads recruiting installers all over the country but the money is as bad as £120 a swap as a subbie. Some of them are even dumping all the responsibility on the installer (idiot) by making them buy the boilers they fit off them. You can imagine the quality of the work that will be done.
I know a guy who worked on it for less than 1/2 a day then walked off the job. Job badly surveyed, he'd to go pick up the shortages etc etc. After a half hour on the phone trying to get an order number he picked up his tools and left the customer with no boiler fitted.

This will be worse than the warmfront fiasco and it will have a very bad impact on all the small guys.

 

[dancinplumba]

Looking forward to picking up the pieces

 

[kay-jay]

Its not all doom and gloom.

Manufacturers are starting to get involved. We just sent some stuff off to glowworm

Basically they provide you with 1500 to fit a gw boiler which is free for the customer.

Much better deal than doing it as a 120 a day subby. Customer can choose an installer. Better standard all round and everyone is much happier than they would be otherwise

 

[hammers4spanner]

whats the deal with glow worm i am club energy installer quite often get emails regerding training etc etc

 

[kay-jay]

Register details with them and you can provide custards with a free boiler providing they meet the affordable warmth criteria. They give you 1500 minus whatever boiler and controls you buy. They deal with the grant side of things.
The remainder is for pipe and sundries and your fee is what's left.
That's my understanding anyway.

It will help the little guys stay afloat and its in the interest of the manufacturers to do this also as The 'firms' rinsing the eco schemes will favour a particular cheap shiddy boiler like the eaga/isar combination

So manufacturers if they want to jeep selling boilers need to make sure the independents keep going and can provide a choice. Undertaking the grant thing in an installer behalf is one such way and imo if all manufacturers follow suit it will be the 'thrown at the wall by monkeys, firms that will suffer

 

[diamondgas]

That'll sound reassuring for the smaller businesses kay-jay, thanks for that Do you know if you have to have any registration behind you, jump through any hoops, to be accepted by glowworm and those behind ECO?

 

[diamondgas]

Every big company and their dog is doing it Steve, even BandQ. It is a free for all for the big boys......

This will be worse than the warmfront fiasco and it will have a very bad impact on all the small guys.

I went to help out a guy doing his first 'green deal' and it was as you said, responsibility dumped on him, poor surveying and an intimidating 'jumped up' representative trying to crack the whip! He did the one and only then told them where to shove it! He's still awaiting payment.........!

They're taking advantage of those in need of work IMO.... Probably fleecing a load of profit into their own pockets at the same time? :32::32::furious3:

 

[CES]

That's exactly whats happening, lots of these "jobs" are being passed through an array of middlemen who claim to be "green experts" until they reach the installer who has to install, commission and deal with any remedials all for whats left in the pot, which usually is the square root of feck all. I wouldn't bother to be honest as IMO we are nearing the end of the helterskelter that was our industry. But then again its easy for me to say that as I'm out of it now.
An arrangement like Kayjays is probably the best route to take, given the circumstances at the moment.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Found this out today after a bit of snooping about , apparently 10% of manufacturers sales can go to the little one man bands under a grant how it works not to sure other than for starters you need to be an approved installer of manufacturers boiler.

gonna nose into it more tmoz

 

[aligorgon]

i signed up through a middle man Loft & Cavity Wall InsulationCentral Heating & BoilersGreen Deal AdviceAll of your energy needs! - Greener energy efficiency measures available under ECO and Green Deal funding. you can use thier pas regisgration. u just need gas safe reg and pl. you get 275 for a terrace 300 for asemi.
i worked out about 90 for mats and fuel. any revisits are downto you. and majority of jobs i ase
sessed were for ethnic minorities out for a imagined freebie. i coul foresee all kinds of problems with custs eg radiator that hasnt worked for 20 yrs becomes your problem.

i was about to do 1st job and was getti ng messed around and *£¥/ed them off

 

[hammers4spanner]

i signed up through a middle man Loft & Cavity Wall InsulationCentral Heating & BoilersGreen Deal AdviceAll of your energy needs! - Greener energy efficiency measures available under ECO and Green Deal funding. you can use thier pas regisgration. u just need gas safe reg and pl. you get 275 for a terrace 300 for asemi.
i worked out about 90 for mats and fuel. any revisits are downto you. and majority of jobs i ase
sessed were for ethnic minorities out for a imagined freebie. i coul foresee all kinds of problems with custs eg radiator that hasnt worked for 20 yrs becomes your problem.

i was about to do 1st job and was getti ng messed around and *£¥/ed them off

so in other words it is a disguise for warm front

 

[diamondgas]

It's a way of dangling a hook to those in need to make money in my opinion! Your then caught and abused until they don't want you anymore... May make a bit but not quite enough to say NO! Bit like a slave, feed them enough but not too much so they're satisfied!!!!

 

[diamondgas]

I was wondering what it was about this 'deal' that niggled me..! I then thought of those trying to make a living, just managing to get by with a sh*ty heating boiler that's costing them a fortune..... They don't qualify so have to fork out themselves .......! To me there's something wrong when a Landlord can 'Lord it up' on a pretty decent income whilst their tenants live in squalor! then along comes a 'freebee' and although they can afford to do the work for their tenants but choose not too, suddenly Decide to take advantage of this scheme .... !!! There's something not quite right there IMHO

 

[hammers4spanner]

This scheme stinks imo !!!

 

[aligorgon]

I have told them a few times to take me off thier email list but just had this one through... sounds like they are pushing the installers to condemn the existing boilers for no services records??? etc. in order to rush the installs through

HI All

we are starting the new fund run by us middle of next week , we have payment within 2 weeks after each weeks submission so this will shorten the pay scale to around 3 weeks – 28days . The pay is £225.00 an install for terrace and £250.00 for others , we order all the parts indicated on your pre survey report the correct ofgem form and survey is attached all boiler are being provided without direct cost to us and we will be fitting Baxi duo tec / system and heat only do not require sparky as they have digital thermo and clock , you will get a 20 m flex flu extension and an inline filter and flu .

You can never order parts from our account ever , it is a sack able offence, any parts ordered on survey that do not appear on the job will cause us to end your employment and the cost will be taken from your wages, any parts you forget on the survey you will provide yourselves, we have employed semi retired engineers to spot check work for parts ordered this is due to theft from the last set of installs .

I cannot stress enough that the paperwork must be returned each evening or by 7.00am the next day, failure to do so will stop your installs for the next day ( no exceptions ) late paperwork will incur fines of £10.00 for every day late and / or end your employment with us, so get a scanner before you start up , a boiler installed without paperwork cannot be paid by the provider or us so you will be wasting your time, each document must be sent on one email and individual photos 1 email per home fitted for the new iPad submission software , if your not sure how to fill out the paperwork you need to ask us before you attempt to do a fit .

New paperwork to follow before Monday

Under the following conditions you must condemn the boiler put a sticker on it and cap off gas, although some are a little over zealous the rules recently have been tightened listing other faults as well . (this will be starting from 21[SUP]st[/SUP] June 2013-next Friday)

PARTS OF FLU HIDDEN NO HATCH
ROOM SEALED BOILERS ( as above )
INSUFFCIANT COOLING / VENTING
EXCESS CARBON MONO ( of course) flu analyser fails .
INLET PRESSURE –DUE TO UNDERSIZE GAS SUPPLY
MECHANICAL STABILITY PROBLEMS ( loose fitting boiler )
CHEMICAL GAS DAMAGE
GAS LEAK
NOT BEEN SERVICED REGUALARY ( this could be common must see proof or condemn )
WORN THERMOCOUPLE
CORODED FLU
CASING DETERIATION

A condemned sticker is required and give the customer a copy of gas check find out if they have a secondary heating system to tide them over for a maximum of 5 days before you reinstall of new boiler, all condemned boilers will be fast tracked to install.


Kind Regards

 

[aligorgon]

what annoys me most about the whole thing is the over inflated projected savings 30% is what they are working on.

how many condensing boilers have you guys fitted where the customer has come back and said to you 'wow my gas bills are waaaayyy cheaper now' truth is most barely notice any savings at all if any.

 

[julesverne]

This has to be the biggest and waste of money/rip off in years. and its the big companies making all the money not the little Guy. i'd rather work in morrisons and stack than work as a subby for these sharks.
now i know we have to put food on the table and some of us clothe the kids.
but if they stopped and thought about we could literally hold these sharks to ransom it just seems some people daft to realise this. little guy takes all the responsibilty yet gets feck all reward.
this is the main reason i'm focusing more on bathrooms at least the sharks cant take these.
still if they all fitted like a bag of carp and they will a few years down the line should reap a fair bit repair and maintenance and no doubt a fair few will need replacing.

it would have been so much fairer giving custs a money off voucher to use with whoever they choose.

 

[theanalyst]

But why is it on the only BIG firms that are going to get the bulk of the work?
Surely if you do Energy assessor and green deal advisor tickets you can get fully paid rather than subbing? Can anyone clarify as I am in need of significantly more regular work., things are a bit sporadic at present and it's wearing thin!!

How are companies picked to do assessments or installs?
anyone doing this eco scheme? sounds better than green deal which I think will be a total flunk...

 

[theanalyst]

AHh....after a bit more research, it seems the BIG SIX energy providers basically handpick who they give the install work to?? Wow that is so corrupt it's almost ridiculous?!!! Am I right in thinking there's no frickin chance of getting on their books .... the only chance may be through my prefered boiler supplier? and theres probably not much chance there as much bigger companies who buy thousands of boilers will probably get all that work!!

 

[Ray Stafford]

it would have been so much fairer giving custs a money off voucher to use with whoever they choose.

^^^^^100% right

 

[Nostrum]

You all need to do a bit more research on this before shouting off about how bad it is?

we are talking about billions of pounds here, of course it has to be regulated. Do you really expect that sort of money to be dished out willy billy in vouchers to any Tom dick or Harry to abuse and use?

the energy companies have an obligation to meet. They need to show evidence of carbon reduction and the guidelines have been set out by ofgem in order for this to be done so that come the end they can prove they have net these obligations.


as such, don't expect to be able to get involved without jumping through a few hoops and aligning yourself with the requirements of the scheme. On the other hand, if you put the effort in, you will be able to offer free boilers directly to potential customers. The large companies are cashing in on the fact that most small businesses can't be bothered, or haven't got the mentality to get involved directly, hence the low prices offered to install only.

Theres money to be made here lads, you've just got to put some effort in and read up on the scheme as it is fairly complicated. Sorry that its not handed to you on a plate, that's life.

 

[CES]

I wish you well Nostrum but Ive seen everything I need to know about ECO and Green Deal and its not for me.

 

[Nostrum]

Care to elaborate CES? Would like to know if I've missed something.

 

[CES]

The fees and the projected income didnt balance enough in my experience Nostrum.
For GDA work - £30 per GDA (possibly 1-2 hrs work minus lodgement fee of between £5-15 per assessment)
For Installation work - Combi swap - £250 (minus pipe and fittings).

The initial outlay has been considerable DEA/GDA training, NAPIT registration,Professional Indemnity insurance (£100K cover min) QMSA manual and for the first year I have had no return on this outlay (my registration is due for renewal in July).
I've not even factored in the fees involved for PAS 2030.
In my experience there seems to be a lot of money being made by others before any work is carried out (namely training and accreditation bodies). If I wasn't a born skeptic I could believe that these were a necessary evil in order to prevent the cowboys participating, but if you have enough money you can actually buy your way into schemes like these and why would the powers that be care? They are absolving themselves from all responsibility as it then lies with the installer who has PAS 2030 registration. Any subbies working under someones registration can also put that business registration at risk so It would be wise to watch out who works for you if that's the route you intend to take. Very little reward for all the risk - Im too long in the tooth for that Im afraid.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I already know of some reet crap firms already on the green deal scheme around my way .Its far from keeping the cowboys at bay and if anything from what i read it a legal con to the tradesman and homeowner the only winners are the govt

 

[eaton]

The install money Eco is awful. But if you fancy chucking 2-3k to get green deal certified for £350 to fit a boiler and you deal with any issues you go for it boys. Its a warm front replacement nothing more

 

[Nostrum]

All I'm saying is this. Do a bit of research. If you go through the motions and get accredited you shouldn't be getting £250 a boiler.

 

[eaton]

I've spoken with assesors, energy providers, accreditation people, installers already installing and manufacturers, its the new warm front. Most you'll get is £1500 from say glowworm but you have to buy boiler, flue and stats, pie fittings etc and flush, let's be fair by time you've got all materials you'll be left with £500-600 if lucky, if you want that to do boiler change and power flush you go for it

 

[lame plumber]

if the governmeny was willing to invest in decent renewables and bin all the wind farm hype Id start taking it seriously. How they think its warrants spending millions on an unreliable system beggars belief. why for instance do those in charge insist on putting wind turbines in the bristol channel that wont work all the time when there is a perfectly good rise and fall of the tide for 22 hours a day to drive water turbines or utilise wave machines. The only reason wind turbines sprout up everywhere is they are over subsidised and wouldnt be viable without government support and money on our power bills.

Likewise why as technicians are we having to do paperwork exercises and jump through hoops to prove we can do the job? Because the bigger companies exert to much power in government and they dont want us involved. As a small company Ilooked at the potential returns on mcs etc and until theose in charge get there act together I couldnt see any, of thew companies I know of locally who have done all the changeover so far, the biggest one has just gone bust, 2 others are struggling now pv subsidies have changed and another one is giving it up as it hasnt helped them at all. You can say well they did it wrong but unless your in a high population area there just isnt the work or money out there at present. If nostrum is doing ok good for him, for the average contractor its just another waste of time, as mentioned a voucher scheme would be cheap to run and far far far more successful, probably to successful which is why it hasnt been used!

 

[Nostrum]

I've spoken with assesors, energy providers, accreditation people, installers already installing and manufacturers, its the new warm front. Most you'll get is £1500 from say glowworm but you have to buy boiler, flue and stats, pie fittings etc and flush, let's be fair by time you've got all materials you'll be left with £500-600 if lucky, if you want that to do boiler change and power flush you go for it

Sorry mate but your wrong.

 

[Nostrum]

if the governmeny was willing to invest in decent renewables and bin all the wind farm hype Id start taking it seriously. How they think its warrants spending millions on an unreliable system beggars belief. why for instance do those in charge insist on putting wind turbines in the bristol channel that wont work all the time when there is a perfectly good rise and fall of the tide for 22 hours a day to drive water turbines or utilise wave machines. The only reason wind turbines sprout up everywhere is they are over subsidised and wouldnt be viable without government support and money on our power bills.

Likewise why as technicians are we having to do paperwork exercises and jump through hoops to prove we can do the job? Because the bigger companies exert to much power in government and they dont want us involved. As a small company Ilooked at the potential returns on mcs etc and until theose in charge get there act together I couldnt see any, of thew companies I know of locally who have done all the changeover so far, the biggest one has just gone bust, 2 others are struggling now pv subsidies have changed and another one is giving it up as it hasnt helped them at all. You can say well they did it wrong but unless your in a high population area there just isnt the work or money out there at present. If nostrum is doing ok good for him, for the average contractor its just another waste of time, as mentioned a voucher scheme would be cheap to run and far far far more successful, probably to successful which is why it hasnt been used!

Last post in this thread as its not constructive, I agree somewhat about MCS. The domestic RHI has caused a lot of grief in the industry as it gets pushed back again and again, biomass is doing on out of the commercial though.

as for green deal. You need to have a dig around, find the official documents and have a read about how the payment system operates. The voucher system won't work, any anyway who are you to tell private companies how they spend their money? Remember this isn't tax payers money, it's coughed up by the big six to avoid the fines they face when they signed up!

 

[lame plumber]

Sorry mate but your wrong.

that may be so but a breakdown of what you reckon to earn on in a private forum may go a long way to proving him wrong and you right. All my experience to date is the schemes are a paper chase process and just as bad as any iso accreditation etc and dont warrant the hassle. Plus the fact that one larger local contractor has gone down the tubes having concentrated on renewables when they did fine as a domestic contractor previously.

 

[lame plumber]

Last post in this thread as its not constructive, I agree somewhat about MCS. The domestic RHI has caused a lot of grief in the industry as it gets pushed back again and again, biomass is doing on out of the commercial though.

as for green deal. You need to have a dig around, find the official documents and have a read about how the payment system operates. The voucher system won't work, any anyway who are you to tell private companies how they spend their money? Remember this isn't tax payers money, it's coughed up by the big six to avoid the fines they face when they signed up!

which is why the whole thing is so bum about face. the people supposed to be providing green energy recieve subsidies from the government/customers to do so, then have to pay some back through elongated schemes when the best option would be to make it law to provided renewable energy, forget all subsidies and let the energy firms adjust their prices within reason and allow them to choose the methology for going green. they pay their taxes or fines to government who can then issue simple vouchers to end users to choose what they want to do. forget all the mind numbing paperwork inbetween.

Norstrum may think this to be a non constructive thread but just saying we are wrong isnt a reasonable arguement either

 

[Nostrum]

Ok, one more post !

ive put a lot of time and effort into attending seminars and speaking with people to find out the real ins and out of the scheme. Perhaps if others did the same rather than rely on the opinions of others without lifting a finger themselves they would be better informed. Certainly on the open forum I'm not going to sprout off about it all for everyone to see including the potentials clients.

In respect to MCS. Most of the companies who have been bitten are companies who popped up overnight to offer solar p.v due to the amount of profit on offer! Jumping in with both feet to make a killing, then not have anything to fall back on when the bottom fell out of it when the tariffs changed. Not entirely there fault, the government cocked it up big time by slashing the FIT over night. I've got first hand experience of this subject so feel I know the situation quite well!

Your right, unless the subsidies are there, renewables don't add up in some instances, the green deal may change that, but it is so complicated a lot are put off including myself for the time being. The FIT fiasco left a sour taste so people will be very wary about the RHI payments as well.

Eaton seems to do well out of heat pumps without the RHI being released so there are cases where the savings are enough to warrant the cost of work. You just need to be able to do the maths rather than blanket statements about certain technologies not working or whatever.

The forums can have a really damaging impact on the industry if it is full of personal opinions without substance.

What you write could be read by your potential customers in the future. Best to make sure its right and accurate.

 

[CES]