should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?

[plumbster3456]

would this sort out some of the very bad plumbing I have had to fix over the years?
what do people think i appreciate there are a lot of guys out there working as plumbers who dont have quals and are probably better than some with quals but generally what do people have to say on this.

 

[Plamber]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

good idea, but policing it would be the hard part.

 

[ecowarm]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

lots of countries you have to be licenced to work on plumbing....... I believe US, Canada and Australia

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

lots of countries you have to be licenced to work on plumbing....... I believe US, Canada and Australia

yes I know that is true and also even if qualified in new zealand you have to apply to there plumbing board every year to be a registered plumber.
I bet the standard of work in these countries will be miles ahead of over here (not counting our own guys who do the job correct)
I am not joking here I recently got sent to a job that the cowboy plumber done an outside tap off of the hot pipe and when customer complained he told her to turn her combi boiler off if using the outside tap and the water would be cold
This is the type of example I am talking about lol

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

would this sort out some of the very bad plumbing I have had to fix over the years?
what do people think i appreciate there are a lot of guys out there working as plumbers who dont have quals and are probably better than some with quals but generally what do people have to say on this.

if they didnt hand out quals to full timers there would be no need

 

[ecowarm]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The standard of work and the rate of pay!

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

and also in these countries especially us plumbers are regarded as highly professional job unlike over here were the rogue traders/ cowboys have tarnished the industry were nearly every one is wary of trades men

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

and also in these countries especially us plumbers are regarded as highly professional job unlike over here were the rogue traders/ cowboys have tarnished the industry were nearly every one is wary of trades men

shame that, how do we overcome it?

 

[mikegas]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

You have to be qualified to do gas work but we still see the pics posted on here an in the mags, the poor work will still be carried out, qualified or not

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

You have to be qualified to do gas work but we still see the pics posted on here an in the mags, the poor work will still be carried out, qualified or not

whats the answe then?

 

[mikegas]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I dont think there is one, just continue to be paid to repair their work

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

yes brilliant idea, take it to the prime minister, the amount of jobs i have lost because i am not gas safe registered, yet i have got my NVQ 3 and all my technical certificates. For some reason people believe that being gas safe is the qualification needed to be a plumber. Also people telling me £400 to do a bathroom is expensive, well when the job is of good quality, then it isnt that much to pay compared to the cock ups of cowboys and these cowboys are charging £200 for a bathroom stealing decent plumbers livelihoods. another idea is to make a TV program of how well projects can go instead of all these cowboy programs which scare the public. Another idea is to make CIPHE a legal requirement of doing any plumbing work. People are still saying Corgi a year after Gas safe took over so it will take a while what ever the change unless it is publicly announced. Why should some bloke steal our work when he has no qualifications yet we have been to college for 3 years and having to price ourselves the same as somebody who doesnt even know what an air admittance valve is. You wouldnt trust a none qualified doctor so why trust a none qualified plumber

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

yes brilliant idea, take it to the prime minister, the amount of jobs i have lost because i am not gas safe registered, yet i have got my NVQ 3 and all my technical certificates. For some reason people believe that being gas safe is the qualification needed to be a plumber. Also people telling me £400 to do a bathroom is expensive, well when the job is of good quality, then it isnt that much to pay compared to the cock ups of cowboys and these cowboys are charging £200 for a bathroom stealing decent plumbers livelihoods. another idea is to make a TV program of how well projects can go instead of all these cowboy programs which scare the public. Another idea is to make CIPHE a legal requirement of doing any plumbing work. People are still saying Corgi a year after Gas safe took over so it will take a while what ever the change unless it is publicly announced. Why should some bloke steal our work when he has no qualifications yet we have been to college for 3 years and having to price ourselves the same as somebody who doesnt even know what an air admittance valve is. You wouldnt trust a none qualified doctor so why trust a none qualified plumber

well said on all points this would be a start

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

yes brilliant idea, take it to the prime minister, the amount of jobs i have lost because i am not gas safe registered, yet i have got my NVQ 3 and all my technical certificates. For some reason people believe that being gas safe is the qualification needed to be a plumber. Also people telling me £400 to do a bathroom is expensive, well when the job is of good quality, then it isnt that much to pay compared to the cock ups of cowboys and these cowboys are charging £200 for a bathroom stealing decent plumbers livelihoods. another idea is to make a TV program of how well projects can go instead of all these cowboy programs which scare the public. Another idea is to make CIPHE a legal requirement of doing any plumbing work. People are still saying Corgi a year after Gas safe took over so it will take a while what ever the change unless it is publicly announced. Why should some bloke steal our work when he has no qualifications yet we have been to college for 3 years and having to price ourselves the same as somebody who doesnt even know what an air admittance valve is. You wouldnt trust a none qualified doctor so why trust a none qualified plumber

did you not get your acs with your nvq3?

think your right but we struggle to police the gas never mind the wet side! i dont see how it could work out

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

also the answer is make it a legal requirement to be a qualified plumber before you are allowed to start a self employed plumbing business.
you are not allowed to start a self employed gas business then run around doing gas jobs so this could be the way.
I no gas is more dangerous but dodgy plumbing can be highly unhygienic and hazardous to peoples health in certain circumstances.
I think the numerous plumbing bodies out there could do more to highlight the dangerous of using cowboy plumbers by the use of adverts in magazines etc.
Then as jase said people would not be getting undercut by the unqualified as much (maybe)

also gas safe registration in no way makes someone a plumber it takes years to learn plumbing some people who are gas safe do nothing but gas servicing etc as that is what they were taught to do in there apprenticeships with the likes of British gas

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

also the answer is make it a legal requirement to be a qualified plumber before you are allowed to start a self employed plumbing business.

think thats a great idea

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hmm!

Are you really looking to improve Plumbing in this country or create a closed market for yourself where you are free to charge whatever you like because nobody else is allowed to do the work?

If that is the case no UK government whose philosophy is based on free trade is hardly likely to allow that.

You could of course make licence access open to all and training free, that would be fair to all. But then same as now, how would you sort the good workers from the bad without policing it?

Lets not forget, as one inspector on this website said "We have loads of problems with registered people's work"

Then if you do police it, why bother with qualification the police should catch the bad workers?

No, in the end it comes down to personal integrity.

 

[oldplumber]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

if only a strong willed government would ban the sale of gas related items to the genral public first, then extend that to things such as unvented cylinders etc would things improve. Only problem is no government has the guts to take on huge shareholder owned companies such as kingfisher who own b& Q and surprisingly screwfix (who already restrict sales to the trades!! on gas items), and are ultimately own by large pension companies, city institutions etc who have more of a say than smaller people such as ourselves, which goes to prove that corgi/gas safe are only there to contol the tradesmen and not the public as we have such a small voice. Prehaps we should refuse to repair all sanitary items, wcs drains etc for a while, then all those with straining asses and buldging eyes might start to listen more to our opinion. Lovely thoughtr but unlikely to happen soon.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Hmm!

Are you really looking to improve Plumbing in this country or create a closed market for yourself where you are free to charge whatever you like because nobody else is allowed to do the work?

If that is the case no UK government whose philosophy is based on free trade is hardly likely to allow that.

You could of course make licence access open to all and training free, that would be fair to all. But then same as now, how would you sort the good workers from the bad without policing it?

Lets not forget, as one inspector on this website said "We have loads of problems with registered people's work"

Then if you do police it, why bother with qualification the police should catch the bad workers?

No, in the end it comes down to personal integrity.

ok bernie if someone does a 12 week gas course does this make them a plumber

I am just saying in general would this help to stop the dodgy work that we see.
and yes I do think we should get paid more that joe bloggs on the street that is because we had to do 4 years and some of the older ones would have done 5 years apprenticeships and should be getting paid more than the local handyman

old plumber is right it is the people with the cash who have the final say but they would not lose any money as d.i.y. ers would not be stopped doing work in there own home so b & q can still sell to who they want but it could be made illegal to do plumbing for money

 

[CES]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Defining "Qualified" in the Heating & Plumbing industry first would be a good start IMHO. I'm not a "qualified" plumber in that i didn't do a 4 year apprenticeship. I don't class myself as a plumber due to this. I'm a time served marine engineer,obtaining an HND in Engineering during my apprenticeship, I spent years being a "Jack of all trades, master of none" offshore,
I'm now a self employed heating engineer, working on my own for my own company. I'm Gas Safe registered with Domestic and Commercial ACS, a member of CIPHE through who I achieved an Eng Tech registration. For some to suggest that I should not be allowed to trade because I'm not "qualified" is questionable, purely in the sense that being "qualified" does not make you a good tradesman. I understand the need to cut out the rogues and cowboys and I support this, but to make laws preventing people starting up companies will not solve the problem. Bad plumbing companies will always be Bad no matter how "qualified" they are, because of this they will eventually cease trading. Whereas good decent tradesmen will survive as long as they produce the quality work.
I think maybe another policing system should be considered. Just my two cents worth btw.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

it was never confusing when we had a straight forward C&G certificate and advanced certficate. the only way you could get in college was to be sent there by an employer. when that was the case there was no need to have another system. it proves to me theres a problem if we need to look at a 'second tier' to justify competence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Maybe i was too hasty in the "qualified" part, but CIPHE already do 2 checks before membership is awarded for certain memberships, maybe a system where this is law, meaning that every plumber is using British standard parts and so cowboys can not use cheaper none tested materials. So basically anybody can become a plumber after going some sort of assessment through a body, where they ask you questions which would not be known except from somebody who is well experienced or gone through thorough training. These checks would be 2 on start up and 2 every year. but what i hear about gas safe, they dont always check plumbers every year.

and to the comments from Bernie2, no i am not looking to close the industry for myself but simply wanting to be trusted to do a job well. why should i, as a genuine plumber be treated like a cowboy. And why should i make a small amount of money after i have been down the route of doing my training for 3 years. I have got the qualifications and i should be rewarded for it.

Hi fuzzy,Thank you for your comments i did the training through a training centre and i have not signed up to an all in one cost, i pay as i go, stopping me from being in debt and getting the training in steps. the ACS is not part of the NVQ3 it is seperate i dont know if you have done it or not but as far as i am aware it is seperate.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

hi mate, no worries. the ACS is part of the plumbing 6089 NVQ3 mate, you cannot pass your NVQ3 without it unless you sign a disclamier, you shouldnt let the centre encourage you to do this as it should be built in.

 

[REDSAW]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

so how do they police taxi drivers then?. they wear a badge so the custard knows there legit.

it cant be that impossible,

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

and what if someone wants a cheap job and ignore the missing badge? how do we police it? who catches em?

 

[ecowarm]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

hi mate, no worries. the ACS is part of the plumbing 6089 NVQ3 mate, you cannot pass your NVQ3 without it unless you sign a disclamier, you shouldnt let the centre encourage you to do this as it should be built in.

At my local college the students get a choice for Nvq 3 ACS, Oftec or a renewable course (solar. Unvented and Hetas)

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

hi mate, no worries. the ACS is part of the plumbing 6089 NVQ3 mate, you cannot pass your NVQ3 without it unless you sign a disclamier, you shouldnt let the centre encourage you to do this as it should be built in.

Nothing to do with the training centre, i researched this, the NVQ3 is definetly seperate to the ACS i do not know where you got that it is the same but it is definetly not the same thing, The NVQ includes the Unvented and a basic introduction to gas but the ACS is definetly different,

[DLMURL="http://www.wnc.ac.uk/Courses/Advanced-Apprenticeship-Plumbing-NVQ-3"]Advanced Apprenticeship Plumbing NVQ 3 - West Nottinghamshire College[/DLMURL]

some places require you to have passed your acs accreditation before you can get your NVQ3 but these are the cons, trust me i have spent weeks researching this.

[DLMURL="http://www.cityandguilds.com/46339.html?s=1"]NVQ in Mechanical Engineering Services - Plumbing (Domestic) | Construction and Building | Plumbing | City & Guilds[/DLMURL]

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

and what if someone wants a cheap job and ignore the missing badge? how do we police it? who catches em?

ok so the taxi business is nearly 100% licensed taxi drivers there are very few who are not licensed.
how can they police this and not plumbing industry?
It would not be an offence on customers part but one on the fitters part this is how it should be done

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Nothing to do with the training centre, i researched this, the NVQ3 is definetly seperate to the ACS i do not know where you got that it is the same but it is definetly not the same thing, The NVQ includes the Unvented and a basic introduction to gas but the ACS is definetly different,

[DLMURL="http://www.wnc.ac.uk/Courses/Advanced-Apprenticeship-Plumbing-NVQ-3"]Advanced Apprenticeship Plumbing NVQ 3 - West Nottinghamshire College[/DLMURL]

some places require you to have passed your acs accreditation before you can get your NVQ3 but these are the cons, trust me i have spent weeks researching this.

[DLMURL="http://www.cityandguilds.com/46339.html?s=1"]NVQ in Mechanical Engineering Services - Plumbing (Domestic) | Construction and Building | Plumbing | City & Guilds[/DLMURL]

sorry mate, the acs is 100% part of the nvq3 if you choose the gas option, it can be bypassed but why would you want to do that? check the front of the nvq 3 file

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

you can pull a taxi over and check em out, how would that work for plumbing? The plumbing police patrolling the streets checking on blokes walking inot house with a blow torch!

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I think the numerous plumbing bodies out there could do more to highlight the dangerous of using cowboy plumbers by the use of adverts in magazines etc.

In Scotland and Northern Ireland this body SNIPEF Home - Scottish and Northern Ireland Plumbing Employers Federation (as have the other bodies in England and Wales), have been lobbying government for years to try to get some kind of compulsory licencing scheme.
They are not interested although the Scottish government are listening a bit. We'll see.

At the moment they do run a licencing scheme and it does impress some people and open some doors if you are licenced.

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

There is the hackney carriage they give people the licences, then you as an employer have to ensure that you have all the paperwork for each employee, including driving license, tax, mot, insurance and a valid hackney license which i believe gets renewed every year or two. also the taxi company must write down every single job taken, if any of these are missing then there is a £1000 fine per item missing. So put simply the employer is held responsible.

 

[Puddle]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

You just have your iris scanned with the customers mobile phone which has a app to connect and check it at the national plumbing and vicuallers data base

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

so i need a taxi now?

 

[bcp]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

NO-unless there is access to training/courses for anyone regardless of age or funds. The closed shop scenario or exclusions because of.....is unacceptable. Oh and get ready to pay huge fees to the governing body.

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

are we talikng about the same NVQ here, i am talking about the 6089 level 3

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I dont have an NVQ!

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

[DLMURL]http://www.cityandguilds.com/documents/ind_construction_plumbing/6089_Candidate_workplace_evidence_record_(Level_3).pdf[/DLMURL]

page 10 mate

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

are we talikng about the same NVQ here, i am talking about the 6089 level 3

the 6089 level 3 is the nvq???

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

[DLMURL]http://www.cityandguilds.com/documents/ind_construction_plumbing/6089_Scheme-Handbook.pdf[/DLMURL]

and this one page 20, probably explains it better, this ok now?

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

ok, well i did the renewable energy route as this was what my college was offering and i did not have the money for the ACS training, but i will do once i can afford. this is not part of the NVQ3 in my college if i went the gas route i would of had to pay for the ACS to be done seperately. is it different for you?

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

you shouldnt have to pay seperately as it is part of the gas option nvq3 6089 course. If your college offered an alternative option then fine, i thought there were only two gas or oil, hadnt heard of a renewable one, what did you cover? (thought it would only be available on the new diploma 6189)

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

covers the air source and ground source pumps and the solar panels. been told that colleges are getting rid of lead and some other parts and they will be teaching renewables in NVQ 2 and 3 from september. its suppose to be the thing of the future??? will only be time before this is policed and whilst on the point they are policing air conditioning engineers early next year. so i reacon it will only be time before plumbers are policed.

the question is, how strict are the current policing systems, taxis, gas engineers and electricians. people are still getting blown up from gas explosions so when will they see sense and police it properly

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

colleges wont be getting rid of anything, they can only run the courses that summitskills design, there will be no tech cert or nvq at level 2 or 3 in a few months, only a diploma that requires you to work. 3 options, gas, oil or renewable, you do one not all 3. falls short i believe, it should include a minimum of renewables but no its an option!
yes lead is going to be an option aswell.

ive never heard of the current nvq having a renewable option, did you not sign an appendix A form?

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

When the so called renawables have been renewed and long forgotten about the lead will still be there and need skilled men to work it.

 

[jase158]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

colleges wont be getting rid of anything, they can only run the courses that summitskills design, there will be no tech cert or nvq at level 2 or 3 in a few months, only a diploma that requires you to work. 3 options, gas, oil or renewable, you do one not all 3. falls short i believe, it should include a minimum of renewables but no its an option!
yes lead is going to be an option aswell.

ive never heard of the current nvq having a renewable option, did you not sign an appendix A form?

are you some sort of tutor, this post is wether they should police none qualified plumbers or not, not training, i dont know where you are getting all this information from

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

its still an option tamz, most employers dont want their trainees learning it, theyd rather them learn more relevant stuff, hence it being semi dropped

 

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Does NVQ stand for "Not Very Qualified"? I love the Eye Spy in the gas mags. This sort of work keeps me in a job.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

are you some sort of tutor, this post is wether they should police none qualified plumbers or not, not training,

as is often the case we can go off topic, your right we should aim to get back on topic and leave this to more relevant threads. im no tutor, i just very pro learning and education, my wifes a teacher! i find alot of people do not know enough about the quals available and i like to inform people of what is going on, not trying to be smart but just help people

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

qualifications used to be the recognised standard for policing the industry why do we need another 'tier'? obviously something wrong with our system if we need this