Plastic or Copper piping?

[JoB333]

Hello,

I need to replace the Galvanized Steel pipes in my central heating system, the question is weather to use Copper of Plastic.

I have heard plastic can have the following issues

1: Joints come loose over time and leak
2: Joints suck in air over time, meaning more bleeding of the system etc.
3: Mice or other rodent (not that I have a known issue with rodents) eat these pipes where as they do not eat copper pipes.

As far as plastic goes I heard Hep02 is the best one to go for?

As far as copper goes I have heard TaraCorp Sterling Lead Free Solder is the best in the industry, but cannot seem to find this for sale at UK outlets, does anyone know where I can by TaraCort Sterling solder/water based flux?

Basically I guess the main question is if it was your house and you were intending to live there for the next 30 years or so which would you install?

Thank everyone in advance,
JoB

 

[gavinwilson]

I would use copper

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[nysk2008]

If it was my house, I would always install with copper - no real reason just my preference. Cant comment on the solder/flux you are talking about - but in my opinion a standard lead free solder with a good flux (laco, fry) etc would do just perfect

 

[Dotty]

Copper all the way. Taracorp looks to be the industry standard in the usa. We're a little less discerning. your plumber will have his preference for solder and flux. Mine is any lead free and Powerflow.

 

[SimonG]

Personally copper for me, any lead free solder (although for heating you can use leaded) and powerflow flux.

If you go for plastic I normally use jg speedfit I find it better, but thats just my opinion.

If you do a search on plastic v copper you will find quite a number of threads on this subject.

Oh and welcome to the forum

 

[JoB333]

Thanks very much every one for your feed back, much appreciated, I was an electrician for several years back in the 90's but never did plumbing, so thanks again for the adive

Jo

 

[Guest123]

Without any doubt, copper and soldered fittings. Remember to fit pipe insulation.

I've seen the damage that rodents do to plastic. I was at a house last year, where a mouse had eaten through a rising main and flooded the attic causing the ceilings to collapse in 2 floors. If you use plastic, encase it in steel conduit.

 

[Barry98]

Think you've found the preferred choice of plumbers

 

[TBServices]

Without any doubt, copper and soldered fittings. Remember to fit pipe insulation.

I've seen the damage that rodents do to plastic. I was at a house last year, where a mouse had eaten through a rising main and flooded the attic causing the ceilings to collapse in 2 floors. If you use plastic, encase it in steel conduit.

I'd love to see what happens to a mouse when the water hits him in the face at 3/4 bar lol.


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[Barry98]

Probably the same face we pull

 

[snowhead]

I'd love to see what happens to a mouse when the water hits him in the face at 3/4 bar lol.


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It's a slightly happier expression to the one that gets frozen on their face when they chew through live cables. :crazy:

 

[AWheating]

in my own house id go copper, quality end feed fittings. As for solder it normally the one the merchant has one the shelf at the time, i do prefere the slightly stiffer solder as its easier to use in tight corners/under baths etc......

 

[Best]

Copper pipe with end feed fittings & leaded solder on heating is fine, but lead free is strong if you wanted. I think then the flux is important. I use the traditional flux. like Fluxite or Yorkshire traditional grease based fluxes. Hard part is to get an installer who has experience & is fussy.
Copper job will last more than 30 years! My heating is 36 years & like new.

 

[hammers4spanner]

to be honest any plumber worth his salt would use copper , Plastic is o.k and is good for some installs but as plumbers/fitters we tend to look at [plastic as diy or for use for builders who tend to advertise themselves as bathroom fitters .

 

[stevetheplumber]

to be honest any plumber worth his salt would use copper , Plastic is o.k and is good for some installs but as plumbers/fitters we tend to look at [plastic as diy or for use for builders who tend to advertise themselves as bathroom fitters .

i cant see how you can come out with unfounded infomation nearly all new builds will be entirely plastic and a good percentage of refurb and emergency work will also be in plastic there fore a lot plumber wouldnt see plastic as substandard
yes i agree copper is the more substantial material but as always theres a trade of on quality and price

 

[00gadge]

Hello,

I need to replace the Galvanized Steel pipes in my central heating system, the question is weather to use Copper of Plastic.

I have heard plastic can have the following issues

1: Joints come loose over time and leak
2: Joints suck in air over time, meaning more bleeding of the system etc.
3: Mice or other rodent (not that I have a known issue with rodents) eat these pipes where as they do not eat copper pipes.

As far as plastic goes I heard Hep02 is the best one to go for?

As far as copper goes I have heard TaraCorp Sterling Lead Free Solder is the best in the industry, but cannot seem to find this for sale at UK outlets, does anyone know where I can by TaraCort Sterling solder/water based flux?

Basically I guess the main question is if it was your house and you were intending to live there for the next 30 years or so which would you install?

Thank everyone in advance,
JoB

Copper wins hands down

 

[Blumper]

..well all I know is, when I've soldered up a load of pipe runs for new rads or whatever and they get buried behind plasterboard and covered over by flooring, I don't think twice about it.....ever......but when I've had to do it all in hep20 or any other plastic because its specified, I fret about each connection made for ages after, did I push it in fully ? did I pinch the o-ring ? did I lock the nut after ?...........and to this day I still can't get my head to accept that they are as watertight as a properly soldered copper joint.....but that's just me.

 

[Gray0689]

Plastic pex pipe in pipe for me going back to manifolds with actuator heads and stats in all rooms NO joints under any floor and total control of each room independently
And power flow flux and any lead free solder
Where in 2012 gone should be the days when you can't control your heating systems frankly heating that just does upstairs and downstairs zones is not enough IMHO
My new heating will be underfloor in main living area with a couple of column rads for a boost in summer if needed big room lol
Bedrooms rads back to manifold working independently and bathrooms with underfloor and towel rads

 

[Gray0689]

And ps hep20 is the worst IMHO if I use any plastic joints it would be polyplumb

 

[JoB333]

Thanks again for the replies

when it comes to insulation of the copper pipes under the floor boards, I was thinking about using normal plumbing pipe felt, i.e. the stuff that stops the creaking over joists etc when the pipe heats up. I was going to use the felt along the whole length of the pipes, is that good enough for insulation for under floor boards, or should I use something more substantial under the ground floor, floor boards in particular, if so will any standard pipe insulation do, it is one brand better than another?

Thanks again to everyone for your help

Jo

 

[hammers4spanner]

i cant see how you can come out with unfounded infomation nearly all new builds will be entirely plastic and a good percentage of refurb and emergency work will also be in plastic there fore a lot plumber wouldnt see plastic as substandard
yes i agree copper is the more substantial material but as always theres a trade of on quality and price

Totally misunderstood my statement , worked on new builds for years and the quality on plastic installs was average at best , most of the plumbers i have worked with on new builds i wouldnt even class as plumbers out of every ten maybe 3 had done a full plumbing course same as emergency work no plumbers but this so called multi trade trades rubbish . Plastic is qiuck fix and diy easy peazy set up , gets more difficult when using aquatherm for eg but as a rule if you knowledge of lego then you can use plastic .

 

[Guest123]

The problem with plastic systems is not the material itself, but the failure rate it has gained through incorrect installation, by so called installers who haven't even bothered to read the manufacturers installation guides before using it.

Much of plumbing is now being taken on by diy'ers and handymen etc. not just plastic, gutters and downpipes, showers, bathrooms and a whole host of other things. I've just carried out repairs to a bathroom installation that was done by a builder, not a plumber and it was a mess, plastic everywhere, cistern leaking, plastic waste pipes leaking etc. If plastic wasn't here, and only copper and solder was the norm, then I doubt that many builders would be able to tackle it. Well any way, customer had no warranty with her bathroom either and it cost quite a bit for my services to repair it. Had she gone with either myself or any other decent plumber, she'd have had a warranty and the repairs wouldn't have cost her anything, not that repairs of this magnitude would be needed any way. The moral of the story here for her is that cheapest isn't always best and it cost her a lot more in the long run to have it put right.

Definitely copper every time for me and the fact that I only use copper has won me bathroom installations over others who have been cheaper. I use it as a selling point when doing a bathroom survey and customers appreciate that if I'm using quality materials, then they'll get a quality job.

 

[DTG plumbing]

Copper all the way as the rest have said! If a jobs werth doing
may aswel do it neat and tidy

 

[hammers4spanner]

I will say the big bonus of using plastic is no fire hazard !!!!

 

[markfxy]

I'd use plastic where not seen and copper if on show I couldn't give a monkeys whats under my floorboards so I'd go for the cheaper quicker option which is plastic

 

[nicro3]

Use whats good for you, On show coppers the one, hidden your choice. The same argument happened before my time lead or copper. Somethings come and go and plastic is here to stay.

 

[Destroyer2813]

The problem with plastic systems is not the material itself, but the failure rate it has gained through incorrect installation, by so called installers who haven't even bothered to read the manufacturers installation guides before using it.

Much of plumbing is now being taken on by diy'ers and handymen etc. not just plastic, gutters and downpipes, showers, bathrooms and a whole host of other things. I've just carried out repairs to a bathroom installation that was done by a builder, not a plumber and it was a mess, plastic everywhere, cistern leaking, plastic waste pipes leaking etc. If plastic wasn't here, and only copper and solder was the norm, then I doubt that many builders would be able to tackle it. Well any way, customer had no warranty with her bathroom either and it cost quite a bit for my services to repair it. Had she gone with either myself or any other decent plumber, she'd have had a warranty and the repairs wouldn't have cost her anything, not that repairs of this magnitude would be needed any way. The moral of the story here for her is that cheapest isn't always best and it cost her a lot more in the long run to have it put right.

Definitely copper every time for me and the fact that I only use copper has won me bathroom installations over others who have been cheaper. I use it as a selling point when doing a bathroom survey and customers appreciate that if I'm using quality materials, then they'll get a quality job.

Went to a Dolphin hash up job removed the bath panel and a access panel in the ensuite everything in sight plastic no sign of clips sagging all over the place, same as with the soil at best 1 elbow was propped up with a discarded pot of glue

 

[Guest123]

Went to a Dolphin hash up job removed the bath panel and a access panel in the ensuite everything in sight plastic no sign of clips sagging all over the place, same as with the soil at best 1 elbow was propped up with a discarded pot of glue

That's partly why Dolphin are no longer around. I see many jobs like this, where botch ups are hidden behind partitions etc. basically if the customer can't see it then it's out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Destroyer2813]

Thats on top of fitting a whale pump that cant keep up with the amount of water the shower puts out :59: worst money that customer ever spent

 

[Dannypipe]

We've done this debate so many times.

I use both copper and plastic barrier pipe. Never had any major issue with either.

My house had no central heating when I bought it last year. I fitted a system of plastic to the rads, and then a length of copper with a chrome plated tail to the rad (chrome plated pipe, rubbed back and soldered to the copper).

Looks nice, hasnt leaked. Went in much quicker than copper, and cost less money.

If it's done badly, it doesn't matter if it's plastic or copper. It will leak or air lock just the same! It will have just cost you more if it was badly fitted copper!!

 

[deadstare]

Those that use plastic are the ones that cant use a pipe bender or solder correctly any tradesman worth his salt will always opt for copper also i the other issue i have came across is with plastic under the floor the rats tend to take a liking to the taste

 

[Doodlebug]

Copper all day long.


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[galaxy_plumbing]

defo copper

 

[Mike Jackson]

Those that use plastic are the ones that cant use a pipe bender or solder correctly any tradesman worth his salt will always opt for copper also i the other issue i have came across is with plastic under the floor the rats tend to take a liking to the taste

What a load of complete and utter tosh. Copper is normally preferable but there are times when plastic is the better option. There are times when the fire risk is too great to solder and plastic is a godsend in these instances. Where cost is a big issue in can be more economical to use plastic and, unless you're very lucky,few of us can afford to turn down work nowadays.

We've got to move with the times and embrace new materials whether we like it or not. It's great to stick with the old materials but not always possible.


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[Subby]

Plastic can be a lot quicker to install, hence why it is used a lot on new builds, and is really handy to fish through places where it would not be possible to get copper pipe in. It is also unsightly, and for what ever reason, the fittings are more prone to failure.
My vote... Copper !

 

[Doodlebug]

What a load of complete and utter tosh. Copper is normally preferable but there are times when plastic is the better option. There are times when the fire risk is too great to solder and plastic is a godsend in these instances. Where cost is a big issue in can be more economical to use plastic and, unless you're very lucky,few of us can afford to turn down work nowadays.

We've got to move with the times and embrace new materials whether we like it or not. It's great to stick with the old materials but not always possible.


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9 out of 10 plastic systems I attend have problems with sludge and blockages.


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[Dannypipe]

Well I guess you visit a lot of plastic systems with microbore? You also have issues with sludge problems on copper microbore systems.

 

[Mike Jackson]

9 out of 10 plastic systems I attend have problems with sludge and blockages.


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I could probably say the same for copper but it's not to do with the material. You'll find more dodgy installs in plastic than copper because it's the DIYers choice. In the past L used to come across dodgy installs in copper with all compression fittings.


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[petercj]

9 out of 10 plastic systems I attend have problems with sludge and blockages.


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Lots of recommendations for power flushing then! :sifone:

 

[Doodlebug]

Lots of recommendations for power flushing then! :sifone:

If the system is in plastic but the water is spotlessly clean then no I wouldn't recommend a PowerFlush. Systems with a lot of plastic pipe are more prone to sludge up and it's more important to inhibit the system on a regular basis, but in reality, who keeps there inhibitor topped up.


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[petercj]

If the system is in plastic but the water is spotlessly clean then no I wouldn't recommend a PowerFlush. Systems with a lot of plastic pipe are more prone to sludge up and it's more important to inhibit the system on a regular basis, but in reality, who keeps there inhibitor topped up.


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"spotlessly clean"

'Spotlessly clean' seems to be the BG standard, which is unrealistic after a system has been running for a number of years because steel radiators will produce magnetite even with inhibitor in the system - as the word suggests, the additive 'inhibits' rather than prevents corrosion completely.

I think BG must train their fitters to condemn plastic speed fit based on the myth that plastic pipe will suck air - being a reputation SF got in the early days of its use when non-barrier pipe was mistakenly fitted to CH systems.

Whilst copper may be the better choice most of the time, SF has got a bad name through being misused. Plus, its potential for making plumbing easier, and so expanding the DIY market, has fueled an antipathy in the trade.

As the price of raw copper rises there will be a tendency for copper pipe to be made of thinner and cheaper alloys, which will, no doubt, reduce the reliability and life of a lot of the copper pipe now being used. Like it or not, plastic is the future.

 

[Doodlebug]

Have you got nothing positive to say about British Gas at all? All I've heard from you since I joined this site is constant whining about how bad British Gas is.
Back on subject, spotlessly clean was probably the wrong choice of words as I agree that's not realistic, what I meant to say was "clean". Now I visit a lot of blocked systems and I've come across a lot that are due to plastic pipes. Yes some are piped in copper but the majority are plastic pipe systems. You are probably correct in saying its more than likely down to the fact that the DIY man uses plastic.


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[petercj]

Have you got nothing positive to say about British Gas at all? All I've heard from you since I joined this site is constant whining about how bad British Gas is.
Back on subject, spotlessly clean was probably the wrong choice of words as I agree that's not realistic, what I meant to say was "clean". Now I visit a lot of blocked systems and I've come across a lot that are due to plastic pipes. Yes some are piped in copper but the majority are plastic pipe systems. You are probably correct in saying its more than likely down to the fact that the DIY man uses plastic.


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"Have you got nothing positive to say about British Gas at all?"

If you can leave that with me, I will give it some thought!

The reason I posted was that what you have said is what all the BG fitters I have spoken with say - i.e. they all condemn plastic out of hand.

If I am as innately critical of BG as you imply, I have to say that you are the converse Doodlebug - in fact you seem to be to British Gas what Howard was to the Halifax!

How do BG get all their blokes to say the same thing?

Does the training end with: "321 ... you're back in the room"?

 

[Doodlebug]

You do make me laugh mate "321 your back in the room" classic.
I only say what I see mate. I'm not the British Gas Howard pmsl
In fact I am critical of British Gas myself. The hard facts are, plastic pipework is more prone to blockages if not maintained. If the inhibitor levels in a plastic pipe system were kept adequate and the system itself was installed correctly then I've no doubt that the plastic pipe would be just as good as copper. But the reality is, when decorators or plumbers or custards drain radiators they don't top the inhibitor back up. Obviously even in a copper piped system it's important to keep a check on inhibitor levels but in my opinion it's more important with plastic pipe systems.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

@OP: Add another point to your disadvances on plastic: oxygen intake. I only once read someone stating in this thread that you have to use barrier pipe if you want to use plastic. Everything else would be a build in guarantee for heavy corrosion.

I personally prefer MLCP where unseen or to feed through inaccessible passages. On show I prefer copper. Or if it comes to larger diameters.
MLCP combines some of the better properties of both worlds.
If you find aluminum eating mice then their big brothers will eat copper too soon. You can bend it to shape and it does not sack unless completely unclipped over large distances. Just a bit like copper. You can avoid unnecessary fittings through that. Goes great in conjunction with manifold systems. It is as oxygen tight as copper. It is quickly installed. It lasts long.
You get brass crimp fittings for it. The 16mm pipe can get joined via compression adapters straight onto your manifold/compression fitting/valve/tap. But now you get push fits for it as well if that is your world.
Only thing is once the connection is done you can only cut it out.

 

[Bernie2]

Err! Interestingly I think copper pipe has been found to have anti bacterial properties and is favoured for use by the NHS?

I would also add it also produces verdigris which is a type of poison.

I like it and prefer it to plastic. Plastic as said entrains air unless barrier pipe is used. I also have many other doubts about it. I have been in pubs where the mice have eaten through the nylon pipes trying to get to the ale. High temperatures make it go like skipping rope.

The upside is its cushy and easy to install and like flexies makes a lot of plumbing a very simple job.

 

[deadstare]

With the introduction of the copper push fit fittingswhat is the reason again that anyone would choose plastic as their preferredchoice

 

[AWheating]

plastic or copper is my prefered choice dependant on the jobs installation requirements!

 

[AWheating]

those that dismiss one system all together are just reducing the scpoe of work they can do. Most new builds now use chamber,i beam, cross webb joist systems and plastic pipework systems are the ideal choice. Anybody who has had to put a 28mm gas carcus in with these types of joists 12" apart will know that doing the same throughout the property for the heating and hot and cold would be a mare.

Ive said it many times that plastic takes skill to install correctly but can be installed by idiots alot easyier than copper. What you get off most plumbers when they find problems with plastic systems is "plasitc is crap" but when you get problems with copper systems its the installers fault. Lets be honest its normally the installers fault for installing incorrectly or using the wrong materials. Its not the plastic manufacutres fault that an installer did not use barrier pipe on a heating system, so why blame plastic?

 

[TBServices]

those that dismiss one system all together are just reducing the scpoe of work they can do. Most new builds now use chamber,i beam, cross webb joist systems and plastic pipework systems are the ideal choice. Anybody who has had to put a 28mm gas carcus in with these types of joists 12" apart will know that doing the same throughout the property for the heating and hot and cold would be a mare.

Ive said it many times that plastic takes skill to install correctly but can be installed by idiots alot easyier than copper. What you get off most plumbers when they find problems with plastic systems is "plasitc is crap" but when you get problems with copper systems its the installers fault. Lets be honest its normally the installers fault for installing incorrectly or using the wrong materials. Its not the plastic manufacutres fault that an installer did not use barrier pipe on a heating system, so why blame plastic?

Agreed. Plastic has its place, especially for heating systems in new builds. The problem with plastic is it's perception by non-plumbers, who think that soldering is the hardest part of the job (lol) so therefore, plastic pipe means they are instantly competent plumbers.

On a side note, please correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought that sludge in a system was a byproduct of the reaction of ferrous, non-ferrous metals, moisture and air within a heating system, which the inhibitor, well, inhibited. Therefore, less copper = less sludge?


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