Over 3 mins to get hot water in kitchen - is this normal?

[LCV]

Hi,

My family have just moved back in from a house renovation just before the Easter bank holiday. When I turned on the tap in the kitchen to wash up and it takes over 3 mins before the water was hot enough to wash up. I had a large kitchen sink put in and I managed to fill that up with cold water which I had to then drain away to replace it with the hot water. It would have been faster (and used less water) if I had boiled the kettle for the hot water. I now wash my hands with cold water after I have used the toilet because it takes so long and as a family so much water is wasted while we wait for it to be hot enough to bathe and shower.

I feel concerned. Is this normal? Before the renovation I did not have to wait long to get hot water to all my taps.

We had a Vaillant system boiler with a 250L indirect hot water cylinder put in. The previous combi boiler was moved from the kitchen to the Utility room. The kitchen is at the front of the house while the Utility room is at the back of the house on the same floor. The previous house was over 3 floors with 2 bathrooms and a loft conversion has taken it to 4 floors and 3 bathrooms. We were told that we would have to wait up to a minute to get hot water in the loft which we said we were fine with but it is actually a lot longer than that and we certainly did not expect the rest of the house to be affected in this way.

I will go back to the plumber to discuss but wanted to get your views and advice first. I am really hoping the problem is to do with a setting on the boiler.

Thanks!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

A long long shot but anywhere round the cylinder area do you have something that looks something like this ?

 

[Howsie]

Now that would be funny.

 

[gastec]

Was the builder english???
Where abouts do you live?

 

[Howsie]

Peckham. SE15.

 

[Riley]

Even if the boiler and cylinder is at the back of the house and the kitchen and toilet is at the front of the house?

As I mentioned before, when I had the boiler in the kitchen I waited about 40seconds to get hot water in the Utility room so I did expect when I moved the boiler into the Utility room the time would be the same or better because I thought my combi boiler wasn't very good.

As I explained before it has no bearing how far the mains is from the cylinder but rather on the hot pipework coming out of the cylinder. Your water is not instantaneously heated as with a combi you now have a hot water store

 

[LCV]

Pay a professional to have a look at it! You'll be glad you did before the builder/plumber has disappeared.

I was going to get a second opinion after I have met with the builder and plumber and hear what they have to say about it. Is it naïve but I am hoping the plumber after investigating will find what is wrong and fix it. From people's postings, I know something is wrong and even without the ring it shouldn't take this long to get hot water.

Are you suggesting I should get someone in first before seeing them?

 

[Riley]

Would you not feel better informed talking with your plumber and builder if you have somebody in to investigate beforehand ? You've already admitted that you know next to nothing about plumbing so what is to stop you being fobbed off by the builder/plumber if you are no more knowledgeable than when they did the work. It's up to you of course but at the moment you just seem to be going in circles and the money spent on an independent investigation might save you a headache in the long run

 

[LCV]

You will have a hot and cold pipes and heating pipes going from the utility room up to the next floors above can you see them

I think so. inside the cylinder cupboard above the cylinder there is boxing which must be hiding the piping.

 

[LCV]

Would you not feel better informed talking with your plumber and builder if you have somebody in to investigate beforehand ? You've already admitted that you know next to nothing about plumbing so what is to stop you being fobbed off by the builder/plumber if you are no more knowledgeable than when they did the work. It's up to you of course but at the moment you just seem to be going in circles and the money spent on an independent investigation might save you a headache in the long run

You're right. I will give Mak a call back and ask him to come round. I know he was recommended by Howsie but should I still ask to see his card to make sure he is G3 level?

 

[Gray0689]

How the hell did he expect to get at them zone valves if and when need. Changing muppet

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You're right. I will give Mak a call back and ask him to come round. I know he was recommended by Howsie but should I still ask to see his card to make sure he is G3 level?

It won't harm prob have it on the back of his gas safe card

 

[oz-plumber]

How the hell did he expect to get at them zone valves if and when need. Changing muppet

He was planning on never coming back. That's why.

We've all done things like that...and also been on the receiving end.

Gee, have I cursed some Plumbers Souls.

No doubt, mine will be cursed someday also.

 

[Gray0689]

No I've never done that bad

 

[Howsie]

You're right. I will give Mak a call back and ask him to come round. I know he was recommended by Howsie but should I still ask to see his card to make sure he is G3 level?

And so you should. Mak was trying to help you out over the phone without incurring expense. If he's willing and able to come then you'll be in a much better position to have an informed discussion with your builder/plumber.

It's been such a painful event, I'm in half a mind to come over myself!

 

[gastec]

I was thinking the same Howsie bit of a day trip.
This thread is a spitting image of a ongoing job that i am trying to put right.

 

[tamz]

This one is rolling on. The OP now knows its the little things in life that means the most.
Maybe shoulda lived with a sheet of osb over that broken window for a few weeks

 

[LCV]

Hang on a second. Despite not having a ring, you must think that 3+minutes to get hot water in the kitchen is not right when the boiler and cylinder are located on the same floor.

With all due respect, the builder's plumber came round and did a survey on the house before they quoted for the job and our requirements were discussed with them. I never said "at the moment it takes around 20seconds to get hot water in the kitchen and rest of the house but please take thousands of pounds of my money and extend that time to 3+minutes".

As for the ring, the builder said to me "...As I said it's not really required." I have this on e-mail and will use it in court if it comes to that but I am hopeful this matter can be resolved without having to go down that road.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Have you managed to talk / get the plumbers gas safe and G3 no

 

[LCV]

I have not heard back from them unfortunately. I didn't heard back from Mak either (Howsie's contact) but another plumber on this forum has kindly PMed me another plumber I could reach out to so just waiting to hear from him.

 

[Riley]

Hang on a second. Despite not having a ring, you must think that 3+minutes to get hot water in the kitchen is not right when the boiler and cylinder are located on the same floor.

With all due respect, the builder's plumber came round and did a survey on the house before they quoted for the job and our requirements were discussed with them. I never said "at the moment it takes around 20seconds to get hot water in the kitchen and rest of the house but please take thousands of pounds of my money and extend that time to 3+minutes".

As for the ring, the builder said to me "...As I said it's not really required." I have this on e-mail and will use it in court if it comes to that but I am hopeful this matter can be resolved without having to go down that road.

and I think you've hit the nail on the head. Due to the plumbers poor English I suspect that the builder has been answering a lot of these questions when he's not qualified or knowledgable enough to do so. Some builders are ace and know a lot but many know building and no other trade and will talk the talk in order to win work and will worry about the consequences afterwards. I think you already said earlier that the plumber did recommended a secondary circuit and obviously I realise that due to cost you didn't go for it. Makes me question why the builder is undermining his plumbers advice. Could be a costly mistakes. I would still be pushing to see your plumbers qualifications as it does set alarm bells ringing that none of the benchmark paperwork is filled out. If he's not qualified then it does add additional weight to your argument which could be useful. I'm not really backing either side here but it sounds to me like a right communication cock up

 

[Riley]

I'm still very confused by your ridiculously poor flow rate at the kitchen tap

 

[LCV]

and I think you've hit the nail on the head. Due to the plumbers poor English I suspect that the builder has been answering a lot of these questions when he's not qualified or knowledgable enough to do so. Some builders are ace and know a lot but many know building and no other trade and will talk the talk in order to win work and will worry about the consequences afterwards. I think you already said earlier that the plumber did recommended a secondary circuit and obviously I realise that due to cost you didn't go for it. Makes me question why the builder is undermining his plumbers advice. Could be a costly mistakes. I would still be pushing to see your plumbers qualifications as it does set alarm bells ringing that none of the benchmark paperwork is filled out. If he's not qualified then it does add additional weight to your argument which could be useful. I'm not really backing either side here but it sounds to me like a right communication cock up

Just for the record, the plumber never recommended a secondary circuit. This is the e-mail that the builder sent to me in July 2015.

"..speaking to plumber today I should ask wether you required hot water circulating ring. This is not necessary required as is only for comfort. I have not quoted for it and should you require would be £1150 extra. Circulating ring sometimes useful if some clients wants instant hot water. It can be switched off or it also can be put on timer. To explain in short, when you open hot water tap in shower, hot water will start running in about 20-40 seconds depending on how far are they from the cylinder and how long time ago it was used. With circulating ring on hot water would appear in few seconds."

The shower he is referring to relates to the shower in the loft en-suite. There was no indication that the taps for the rest of my house would be affected.

From his e-mail, especially as he then later wrote that "it is not really required" made it feel there was a choice and it was not a necessity.

 

[Riley]

Just seems odd that they'd even suggest it if it wasn't suitable. I still think part of your problem is flow related

 

[Scott_D]

Flow restrictors may be fitted at taps.

 

[Riley]

Maybe but under 5lpm at kitchen taps is insane

 

[mfgs]

On any system of that size I would spec and quote for a secondary return as standard and would only agree to not fit it if the customer put it in writing to me that they don't want it. Its poor system design to not have it.

 

[Best]

I always thought on the flow at tap might be part of the problem. Especially as new plumbing has been done or if it is a new kitchen tap. Could be debris in the tap airator, or check valve or isolating valve. Always check the simplest and most obvious thing first. I am sure the OP won't mind extra water flow from the tap to increase the speed of hot water delivery.

 

[Riley]

I agree with the above. Flow is obviously a big issue but a secondary hot water circuit would've been the simple choice

 

[Howsie]

Probably a kinked flexi under the sink.

 

[mfgs]

I thought she just wasn't opening the tap fully.