Outside tap advice. (Yes really!)

[JCplumb]

Hi guys.
Was sorting a job for a customer yesterday and they asked me to install an outside tap on Thursday (It was too late to start it at the time).
No problem I hear you say, why on earth would someone who calls themselves a plumber want advice on an outside tap...
Well here's the thing. The house has a cellar which has steps going down to it outside the kitchen wall, so it can't come out there without a few metres of elaborate exterior pipework that will almost definitely freeze in winter, so the only option is to bring it out from the bathroom. The bathroom is fully tiled so can't drill into it without breaking at least one tile, can't drill out from it without making a mess of the outside wall. The only place I can safely drill in without hitting the back of a tile is under the bath, so access to the isolation valve will be hindered by the bath panel. They don't want any exposed pipework.
So my quandary is. I can fit it but the isolation on it will be rendered pointless by the plastic bath panel which needs to be siliconed back in once the job is finished.
What would you do?
1. Do it under the bath with a disclaimer on the invoice about freezing.
2. Go out under the basin which will make a pigs ear of the exterior wall, but will leave an accessible place to have an ISO, this spot will also have to include about a meter of exterior pipework as the sink backs onto a part of wall over the cellar steps.
3. Or go in under the kitchen sink as standard but have a couple of meters of exterior pipework.
The customer is the landlord and doubts the tenants will adhere to the winter drain off rule. So I'd rather use no exterior pipes and a wall plate than a back plate elbow - to reduce the chance of a freeze. The only option where I could do this is from under the bath so no useful internal ISO with that option...
Only the kitchen sink method will allow me to site the tap over a drain, there is no exterior drain outside the bathroom.
I could just put it to the customer and let him decide, but which do you think is the best option?

 

[Gray0689]

Hi guys.
Was sorting a job for a customer yesterday and they asked me to install an outside tap on Thursday (It was too late to start it at the time).
No problem I hear you say, why on earth would someone who calls themselves a plumber want advice on an outside tap...
Well here's the thing. The house has a cellar which has steps going down to it outside the kitchen wall, so it can't come out there without a few metres of elaborate exterior pipework that will almost definitely freeze in winter, so the only option is to bring it out from the bathroom. The bathroom is fully tiled so can't drill into it without breaking at least one tile, can't drill out from it without making a mess of the outside wall. The only place I can safely drill in without hitting the back of a tile is under the bath, so access to the isolation valve will be hindered by the bath panel. They don't want any exposed pipework.
So my quandary is. I can fit it but the isolation on it will be rendered pointless by the plastic bath panel which needs to be siliconed back in once the job is finished.
What would you do?
1. Do it under the bath with a disclaimer on the invoice about freezing.
2. Go out under the basin which will make a pigs ear of the exterior wall, but will leave an accessible place to have an ISO, this spot will also have to include about a meter of exterior pipework as the sink backs onto a part of wall over the cellar steps.
3. Or go in under the kitchen sink as standard but have a couple of meters of exterior pipework.
The customer is the landlord and doubts the tenants will adhere to the winter drain off rule. So I'd rather use no exterior pipes and a wall plate than a back plate elbow - to reduce the chance of a freeze. The only option where I could do this is from under the bath so no useful internal ISO with that option...
Only the kitchen sink method will allow me to site the tap over a drain, there is no exterior drain outside the bathroom.
I could just put it to the customer and let him decide, but which do you think is the best option?

Let the customer decide

 

[Gray0689]

Let the customer decide

And is the bath mains cold

 

[dontknowitall]

You can do a run without it freezing. If you fit a suitable drain point (and have sloping pipework), the customer can drain the pipe for the winter months. A drained pipe cannot freeze.

Just a thought.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Drill a hole into the bathroom tile from inside, then drill a pilot hole through the wall. Drill your full-sized hole half way through the wall from the bathroom side then drill from the outside. Nice and neat outside and in and no broken tiles ... hopefully.

 

[Killy Bing]

tough one !!
here are my inexperienced opinions.

1. if they agree to the terms, covers you and you've put in writing about the issues. put an additional isolate outside as it comes out the wall.

2. get a 25MM tile hole saw for the interior tile, 22MM x 400MM core and core it, no blow out on the external wall, hammer in 22mm as a sleeve and seal for future replacement, tee it with a drain on the bottom, quarter turn brass jobby(might actually get used) and go up to a back plate with the tap.

3. ask to time a service later in the year and turn it off and drain yourself, when they want the outside tap in spring they can figure it out themselves.

i would go for 2 and get the extra tooling for the future.

 

[stevetheplumber]

drill from inside out with a ten mm then each way with a 20mm use a flanged pipe type fitting to hide any breakout

 

[Paulus]

Pass the buck. Give the customer the options with pro's and con's in writing and get him to sign against the option he decides to go with. One lesson I have learned is to always cover you back.

 

[gassafe]

Supply one of those outside tap insulated covers, only a few quid from screwy I bet.

outside taps don't freeze that often anyway. Mine never has, never isolated either.

 

[gassafe]

Stormguard Outside Tap Insulation | NoLinkingToThis

 

[gavinwilson]

Pass it on ,there's a bloke in ***bria does them in 25 minutes

 

[SimonG]

Same as DKIA. Wether the pipes/tap freeze all depend upon location, orientation, prevailing wind etc. If tap is not lowest point of pipework I always fit a drain off and instruct cust to isolate inside, open outside tap and open drain off.

 

[johnnyplumb]

even when the outside tap is the lowest point of the system, closing the isolation valve will not guarantee drainage of pipework etc. it's a bit like filling a short bit of hose with water and holding it vertical with your finger over the top, the water wont drain from the hose until you release your finger.

it's better to have an air inlet/release point after the isolation valve [ a tee piece with a bleed nipple in the branch works a treat ]

close iso valve, open outside tap and open bleed nipple for guaranteed drainage.
it's never done though.

 

[kay-jay]

Do it as standard Joe. If it bursts its cos if the weather not cos of you. Take the callout and repair.

Btw plastic pipe externally has a higher tolerance to bursting.

 

[leethegasman]

If you fit a sure stop valve under bath you could possibly fit the switch In a adjacent cupboard

 

[plumber0808]

Drill it from inside and tile drill on the tile then Diamond core it out clean hole. Why do people pop the face off bricks I hate that hammer a 25mm sds bit through and ruin the outside.

http://m.NoLinkingToThis/p/norton-diamond-core-drill-bit-28-x-300mm/10893?filtered=true

Toolstation > Plumbing > Valves > Wallplate & Tube

 

[Killy Bing]

Marcrist do a cracking 22mm one, i use it for outside taps.

 

[plumber0808]

I have the marcrist cores as well, great drill bits

 

[Keefy]

Iso'---->-----DCV------>-----Draincock----->----|Piepe + Sleeve|---->---Outside Tap
^
^
^
^
<<<< Cold Main

20mm hole, 20mm electrical conduit, slot 15mm pipe through, seal both ends = sorted.

 

[Howsie]

Straight through the tile with an SV on the inside.

 

[JCplumb]

Thanks for the replies chaps, I will leave it to the customer to decide, but I now have more ideas to throw at him, and more pricing options
TYVM.

 

[REDSAW]

fit a sure-stop to the bath panel and a doc under o/tap!!!

 

[johnnyplumb]

If you fit a sure stop valve under bath you could possibly fit the switch In a adjacent cupboard

great idea,
but would the customer pay the extra £40 or so for it ?
i doubt it, especially if he's a landlord.

 

[Derek Hardman]

You can buy a tap with a screw out drain in the base, I would either offer that with a disclaimer about draining down, or a surestop switch with a drain in the pipework, I agree with coring the hole through and sleeving it. COMAP WESTCO LIMITED Bib Taps - Bibcock Dzr With Union & Double Check Valve 3/4"

 

[Gray0689]

You can buy a tap with a screw out drain in the base, I would either offer that with a disclaimer about draining down, or a surestop switch with a drain in the pipework, I agree with coring the hole through and sleeving it. COMAP WESTCO LIMITED Bib Taps - Bibcock Dzr With Union & Double Check Valve 3/4"

That's a tap with check valve

 

[Mike Jackson]

And not compliant with the water regs. DC valve needs to be within the building envelope.

 

[JCplumb]

I gave the customer all the options today and he settled on a bit of pipework coming out through the bath panel with an ISO then the pipework goes back in under the bath and goes outside.
Not what I would have chosen, but the customer is king and all that.
Thanks oodles for your advice chaps

 

[JCplumb]

I might add that he was asking me to just do the tap from under the bath without an internal isolation point until I mentioned that I would have to include a disclaimer on the invoice if he chose that option.
Don't you just love landlords?

 

[Plum Bob 66]

And not compliant with the water regs. DC valve needs to be within the building envelope.

Out of interest Mike, what happens if your replacing an existing outside tap with check valve, is it within regs to replace like for like when no check valve has been plumbed internally?

 

[Keefy]

Out of interest Mike, what happens if your replacing an existing outside tap with check valve, is it within regs to replace like for like when no check valve has been plumbed internally?

"Double check valves have been shown to be susceptible to frost damage and should therefore be protected against freezing by being installed inside a building, or by other means."

WRAS Recommendation R15.20

As long as you protect it from freezing by another means then you should be okay but I personally wouldn't put my trust in one of those tap covers.

 

[chris watkins]

Out of interest Mike, what happens if your replacing an existing outside tap with check valve, is it within regs to replace like for like when no check valve has been plumbed internally?

I should not steal Mikes thunder but to answer your question Bob, they can be installed as a replacement only, like for like or if the original tap had no protection & it is not practical to install a D/C on the inside (fitted kitchen units etc).
That is the only reason why they are still on sale.

 

[Keefy]

If you fit a sure stop valve under bath you could possibly fit the switch In a adjacent cupboard

Just to add, you can now buy a 6 metre length of tubing so you could put the switch pretty much anywhere.