OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[trf0412]

Currently in the middle of a bathroom refit. Just had first-fix plumbing done and new flooring installed and plumber has sent me some photos of the pipework before flooring went down (see attached).

The shower and sink waste combine into one before crossing the joists to get to the soil pipe. From the photo the plumber sent me, it looks like there must be a fall from the shower waste down to the sink waste (it's pieces of rigid pipework joined with a straight connector, so can't possibly be falling from both ends, right?). Also, I'm not sure why a T-piece that should be used vertically has been used horizontally? Anyway, my logical conclusion is that water will be permanently sat in the section of pipe between the T-piece and where it turns to go up to the sink. So, if I'm right, that leads to a few questions:

• Is this going to pose a major problem or will the waste coming from the sink just displace the water in the pipe as it would be coming from a higher source?
• Will this set-up result in the sink draining too slowly and backing up?
• Is there a risk the sink waste could get into the shower tray (esp. with the strange T-piece that's been used, meaning the water will need to do a sharp left-turn)?
• How about the water coming from the shower while showering? Will it all flow via the T-piece down to the soil pipe, or is there a chance it will push water back up the sink waste?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Lift and hope for the best pry bar works the best

 

[Old Account]

View attachment 30873

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

 

[Best]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

 

[Old Account]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

The whole job should come out of his pocket. Each pipe and joint as well as each minute for the other engineer ( qualified ) should be paid from his pocket.

 

[trf0412]

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

 

[Best]

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

He could take you to Small Claims Court for any amount extra he thinks he is due but you could fight it or also claim of him.
He would have to prove his work was satisfactory etc, likewise you would have to prove the work was badly done and therefore unacceptable. A qualified plumbers report on the work would be enough evidence for you to take to court to counter your first plumber.
I would take plenty of photos of all the work,the rubble, etc, left not taken away, plus stage by stage removal of faults, like shower tray base.
Manufacturers instructions, building regs for evidence and any quotes your plumber gave you. Judges love plenty of evidence.
I don't think you will have a problem with the plumber as he will know he is in the wrong, but best you gather evidence now and retain it.
Keep any communications - letter, emails, texts, etc, polite and reasonable, as you also need those as proof of your objections, so have copies.
My take on all this is your plumber probably deserves to be paid for any labour done correctly, - so whatever cost for removing old bathroom suite, plus some money for basic labour and not too much extra. You really need what you were going to pay him, to be paid to another plumber

 

[trf0412]

Thanks - very helpful advice. Re. paying him for "any labour done correctly", that's where there's going to be a fair amount of disagreement as in his mind everything was done correctly!

I'm going to go back to the person who recommended him to me to see if they know whether he has any qualifications, because even I'm starting to question whether he has any plumbing qualifications or just learnt on the job!

 

[Old Account]

As @Best has said, take all relevant pictures. At the claim court it's important what you can proof not what you know or have heard. The more you can proof the better it's for you. Everyone can tell it is a bodge job and not done to a satisfactory standard. I would refuse to pay, wouldn't even pay a penny until it's put right. I'd rather take him to the claim court if he is not willing to sort the pipework out. I always take pictures because not only builders doing rough jobs you've got more rough customers than cowboy builders. And those people like to go to claim courts and trying to get things done for free. However, in your case it is clearly the builders fault. Good luck

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

 

[oz-plumber]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

In that case the 'Plumber?' that did the work will be owing the OP a truck load of cash.

I can;t believe the OP was willing to pay 55% of the quote to the 'Plumber?' .. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

This is getting more weird by the moment.

I wish to retract my previous statement that I am starting to feel sorry for the OP.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.
In that case, he should get a qualified plumber in to sort out the 'mess'

 

[trf0412]

.. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

Well, if the shower tray is going to be redone, someone's going to have to do it. I certainly don't want to get the previous plumber to do it (and in any case, that ship has sailed now, as I've sacked him), and the new plumber would understandably claim zero liability if the tray cracks on removal, so I don't see what I have to lose by trying to carefully remove it myself?

And if setting it down on a sand & cement base is more complicated that I currently think it should be, by all means I can pay the new plumber to do it. But if I did it, I would follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding sand to cement ratio etc. and would probably do a much better job than our cowboy plumber did with his tube of silicone. I would also use the provided template to cut out the hole for the waste, but would leave connecting it all up to a qualified plumber.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.

Here we go again... If that were the case, why wouldn't I have just come on here and said I'm doing some DIY plumbing? It's not a crime is it? I don't need to hide behind an elaborate story where I'm pretending to be a plumber!

 

[gmartine]

Oh boy get him off the job asap, my 8yr old has better joinery skills. That is some doing...managing to cut every feed pipe such that every braided hose has to be kinked to fit. Ever have to un-kink your garden hose? Well the result is the same if left in place ie restricted or no flow.

 

[oz-plumber]

Here we go again... If that were the case, why wouldn't I have just come on here and said I'm doing some DIY plumbing? It's not a crime is it? I don't need to hide behind an elaborate story where I'm pretending to be a plumber!

If you had come on here and stated you have done some DIY plumbing and posted those pics, you would have got a reply from me ..stating...

Top job Pal.

You've got the talent and expertise to become qualified

You should start doing weekenders for friend, family and neighbour's.
In fact, you should take the pics down to the Plumbing Registration Board, show them what you've done, explain to them that you managed that without any previous experience in the Trade and they will probably give you a Licence.

Once again, beautiful work.
Send some pics in of the completed project and let us know how everythings going in 6 months time

 

[Stigster]

Oh boy get him off the job asap, my 8yr old has better joinery skills. That is some doing...managing to cut every feed pipe such that every braided hose has to be kinked to fit. Ever have to un-kink your garden hose? Well the result is the same if left in place ie restricted or no flow.

I don't think that hideous shower valve installation is in OP's house or relevant to this thread. That just appeared in the thread for some reason, maybe it was supposed to go in the Hall of Shame? As far as I can tell we are only dealing with the guy's waste pipes and shower tray.

 

[trf0412]

If you had come on here and stated you have done some DIY plumbing and posted those pics, you would have got a reply from me ..stating...

Top job Pal.

You've got the talent and expertise to become qualified

You should start doing weekenders for friend, family and neighbour's.
In fact, you should take the pics down to the Plumbing Registration Board, show them what you've done, explain to them that you managed that without any previous experience in the Trade and they will probably give you a Licence.

Once again, beautiful work.
Send some pics in of the completed project and let us know how everythings going in 6 months time

Ah, good job I pretended I was a plumber then! Just kidding!

I don't think that hideous shower valve installation is in OP's house or relevant to this thread. That just appeared in the thread for some reason, maybe it was supposed to go in the Hall of Shame? As far as I can tell we are only dealing with the guy's waste pipes and shower tray.

Yes, that's correct. The photo being referred to isn't directly relevant to this thread. The main issues in our bathroom right now are the messed up waste pipes & incorrectly laid shower tray.

Today I spoke with the new plumber and specifically asked how they would go about laying a stone resin tray. I was pleased when he said the first thing they would do is read the instructions (!), but then he said more often than not they bed it down on a layer of tile adhesive. So, I was wondering how this method compares to sand & cement? Of course, in order to be covered by the manufacturer's warranty it has to be sand & cement in our case, but I have read about this going crumbly and therefore wondered if tile adhesive is actually seen as a better alternative by some?