OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[trf0412]

Currently in the middle of a bathroom refit. Just had first-fix plumbing done and new flooring installed and plumber has sent me some photos of the pipework before flooring went down (see attached).

The shower and sink waste combine into one before crossing the joists to get to the soil pipe. From the photo the plumber sent me, it looks like there must be a fall from the shower waste down to the sink waste (it's pieces of rigid pipework joined with a straight connector, so can't possibly be falling from both ends, right?). Also, I'm not sure why a T-piece that should be used vertically has been used horizontally? Anyway, my logical conclusion is that water will be permanently sat in the section of pipe between the T-piece and where it turns to go up to the sink. So, if I'm right, that leads to a few questions:

• Is this going to pose a major problem or will the waste coming from the sink just displace the water in the pipe as it would be coming from a higher source?
• Will this set-up result in the sink draining too slowly and backing up?
• Is there a risk the sink waste could get into the shower tray (esp. with the strange T-piece that's been used, meaning the water will need to do a sharp left-turn)?
• How about the water coming from the shower while showering? Will it all flow via the T-piece down to the soil pipe, or is there a chance it will push water back up the sink waste?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Lift and hope for the best pry bar works the best

 

[Old Account]

View attachment 30873

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

 

[Best]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

 

[Old Account]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

The whole job should come out of his pocket. Each pipe and joint as well as each minute for the other engineer ( qualified ) should be paid from his pocket.

 

[trf0412]

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

 

[Best]

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

He could take you to Small Claims Court for any amount extra he thinks he is due but you could fight it or also claim of him.
He would have to prove his work was satisfactory etc, likewise you would have to prove the work was badly done and therefore unacceptable. A qualified plumbers report on the work would be enough evidence for you to take to court to counter your first plumber.
I would take plenty of photos of all the work,the rubble, etc, left not taken away, plus stage by stage removal of faults, like shower tray base.
Manufacturers instructions, building regs for evidence and any quotes your plumber gave you. Judges love plenty of evidence.
I don't think you will have a problem with the plumber as he will know he is in the wrong, but best you gather evidence now and retain it.
Keep any communications - letter, emails, texts, etc, polite and reasonable, as you also need those as proof of your objections, so have copies.
My take on all this is your plumber probably deserves to be paid for any labour done correctly, - so whatever cost for removing old bathroom suite, plus some money for basic labour and not too much extra. You really need what you were going to pay him, to be paid to another plumber

 

[trf0412]

Thanks - very helpful advice. Re. paying him for "any labour done correctly", that's where there's going to be a fair amount of disagreement as in his mind everything was done correctly!

I'm going to go back to the person who recommended him to me to see if they know whether he has any qualifications, because even I'm starting to question whether he has any plumbing qualifications or just learnt on the job!

 

[Old Account]

As @Best has said, take all relevant pictures. At the claim court it's important what you can proof not what you know or have heard. The more you can proof the better it's for you. Everyone can tell it is a bodge job and not done to a satisfactory standard. I would refuse to pay, wouldn't even pay a penny until it's put right. I'd rather take him to the claim court if he is not willing to sort the pipework out. I always take pictures because not only builders doing rough jobs you've got more rough customers than cowboy builders. And those people like to go to claim courts and trying to get things done for free. However, in your case it is clearly the builders fault. Good luck

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

 

[oz-plumber]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

In that case the 'Plumber?' that did the work will be owing the OP a truck load of cash.

I can;t believe the OP was willing to pay 55% of the quote to the 'Plumber?' .. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

This is getting more weird by the moment.

I wish to retract my previous statement that I am starting to feel sorry for the OP.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.
In that case, he should get a qualified plumber in to sort out the 'mess'

 

[trf0412]

.. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

Well, if the shower tray is going to be redone, someone's going to have to do it. I certainly don't want to get the previous plumber to do it (and in any case, that ship has sailed now, as I've sacked him), and the new plumber would understandably claim zero liability if the tray cracks on removal, so I don't see what I have to lose by trying to carefully remove it myself?

And if setting it down on a sand & cement base is more complicated that I currently think it should be, by all means I can pay the new plumber to do it. But if I did it, I would follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding sand to cement ratio etc. and would probably do a much better job than our cowboy plumber did with his tube of silicone. I would also use the provided template to cut out the hole for the waste, but would leave connecting it all up to a qualified plumber.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.

Here we go again... If that were the case, why wouldn't I have just come on here and said I'm doing some DIY plumbing? It's not a crime is it? I don't need to hide behind an elaborate story where I'm pretending to be a plumber!

 

[gmartine]

Oh boy get him off the job asap, my 8yr old has better joinery skills. That is some doing...managing to cut every feed pipe such that every braided hose has to be kinked to fit. Ever have to un-kink your garden hose? Well the result is the same if left in place ie restricted or no flow.

 

[oz-plumber]

Here we go again... If that were the case, why wouldn't I have just come on here and said I'm doing some DIY plumbing? It's not a crime is it? I don't need to hide behind an elaborate story where I'm pretending to be a plumber!

If you had come on here and stated you have done some DIY plumbing and posted those pics, you would have got a reply from me ..stating...

Top job Pal.

You've got the talent and expertise to become qualified

You should start doing weekenders for friend, family and neighbour's.
In fact, you should take the pics down to the Plumbing Registration Board, show them what you've done, explain to them that you managed that without any previous experience in the Trade and they will probably give you a Licence.

Once again, beautiful work.
Send some pics in of the completed project and let us know how everythings going in 6 months time

 

[Stigster]

Oh boy get him off the job asap, my 8yr old has better joinery skills. That is some doing...managing to cut every feed pipe such that every braided hose has to be kinked to fit. Ever have to un-kink your garden hose? Well the result is the same if left in place ie restricted or no flow.

I don't think that hideous shower valve installation is in OP's house or relevant to this thread. That just appeared in the thread for some reason, maybe it was supposed to go in the Hall of Shame? As far as I can tell we are only dealing with the guy's waste pipes and shower tray.

 

[trf0412]

If you had come on here and stated you have done some DIY plumbing and posted those pics, you would have got a reply from me ..stating...

Top job Pal.

You've got the talent and expertise to become qualified

You should start doing weekenders for friend, family and neighbour's.
In fact, you should take the pics down to the Plumbing Registration Board, show them what you've done, explain to them that you managed that without any previous experience in the Trade and they will probably give you a Licence.

Once again, beautiful work.
Send some pics in of the completed project and let us know how everythings going in 6 months time

Ah, good job I pretended I was a plumber then! Just kidding!

I don't think that hideous shower valve installation is in OP's house or relevant to this thread. That just appeared in the thread for some reason, maybe it was supposed to go in the Hall of Shame? As far as I can tell we are only dealing with the guy's waste pipes and shower tray.

Yes, that's correct. The photo being referred to isn't directly relevant to this thread. The main issues in our bathroom right now are the messed up waste pipes & incorrectly laid shower tray.

Today I spoke with the new plumber and specifically asked how they would go about laying a stone resin tray. I was pleased when he said the first thing they would do is read the instructions (!), but then he said more often than not they bed it down on a layer of tile adhesive. So, I was wondering how this method compares to sand & cement? Of course, in order to be covered by the manufacturer's warranty it has to be sand & cement in our case, but I have read about this going crumbly and therefore wondered if tile adhesive is actually seen as a better alternative by some?

 

[FG28]

Ah, good job I pretended I was a plumber then! Just kidding!



Yes, that's correct. The photo being referred to isn't directly relevant to this thread. The main issues in our bathroom right now are the messed up waste pipes & incorrectly laid shower tray.

Today I spoke with the new plumber and specifically asked how they would go about laying a stone resin tray. I was pleased when he said the first thing they would do is read the instructions (!), but then he said more often than not they bed it down on a layer of tile adhesive. So, I was wondering how this method compares to sand & cement? Of course, in order to be covered by the manufacturer's warranty it has to be sand & cement in our case, but I have read about this going crumbly and therefore wondered if tile adhesive is actually seen as a better alternative by some?

Great well sounds like they know what there doing
Tile adhesive IMO is better than sand cement and will be fine ,.
You can manufacturer and they will say its fine , im fairly certain of that ,
Yea sorry i put that pic up really to show the push fit monkeys about that still cant even do that
I think once your trays in properly you should be fine
So long as your tiler doesnt start doing things like my next pic

 

[FG28]

 

[trf0412]

Hahaha! Wow, that is something! I can't even get my head around how someone could do such a horrendous job....

 

[FG28]

Hahaha! Wow, that is something! I can't even get my head around how someone could do such a horrendous job..

Its amazing isnt it
How the hell do you achieve that , look at the slithers in the corner ,.
Im pretty sure its harder to do what they have done than do it properly in the first instance

 

[Ric2013]

The customer wouldn't let me damage the towel rail and the screws holding it in place were seized solid, so I tiled round it. They also more-or-less threatened not to pay if I wasn't done by 5. So I did what I could...

 

[trf0412]

And what sort of muppet wouldn't even attempt to align the tils on the two adjacent walls?? Or remove the towel rail?? Unbelievable.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep that's good flexible tile adhesive, what did he say about the other stuff ?

 

[gmartine]

@FG28

The hall of shame is the place for pics of dodgy work mate

 

[trf0412]

Yep that's good flexible tile adhesive, what did he say about the other stuff ?

He's going to take a look at the wastes on Mon and figure out how we can redo them, but was in total agreement about uphill run becoming a trap for toothpaste, oils, hair etc. He was also a bit shocked to hear about how the waste had been run through the joists, and has suggested adding some more noggins to spread the load. However, he said that we might be ok, partly because building regs have to be overly cautious and also because our house was built in the 1960s and probably a lot less flimsy than some new builds.

 

[trf0412]

OK, quick update. I popped down to Screwfix this morning and bought a pry bar and have spent the last couple of hours nervously cutting away small sections of the OSB around the shower tray with a multi-tool to allow me to get the pry bar under it. I also had to chip away the plaster where it came right down to the tray. Then I went round the tray and gently applied pressure at various points. It was quite nerve-wracking but the good news is I managed to get the tray up in one piece! (Before anyone jumps down my throat, I explained in an earlier post why I decided to do this myself rather than leave it to the new plumber).

The pry bar caused the edge of the tray to chip in a few places, but hopefully the tiles will hide these.

As you can see from the attached photos, our cowboy "plumber" used a few blobs of silicone, so the tray wasn't bedded down on anything! He also cut out a massive hole for the waste, so the tray was completely unsupported over that area.

I'm now planning to take up that section of flooring and put down a new piece of marine ply or OSB, clean all the silicone off the tray and let the new plumbers install it properly.

Any tips for getting the silicone off the base of the tray? Presumably it doesn't matter if there is some residue on the tray, as the sand & cement (or tile adhesive) will level things out?

 

[FG28]

OK, quick update. I popped down to Screwfix this morning and bought a pry bar and have spent the last couple of hours nervously cutting away small sections of the OSB around the shower tray with a multi-tool to allow me to get the pry bar under it. I also had to chip away the plaster where it came right down to the tray. Then I went round the tray and gently applied pressure at various points. It was quite nerve-wracking but the good news is I managed to get the tray up in one piece! (Before anyone jumps down my throat, I explained in an earlier post why I decided to do this myself rather than leave it to the new plumber).

The pry bar caused the edge of the tray to chip in a few places, but hopefully the tiles will hide these.

As you can see from the attached photos, our cowboy "plumber" used a few blobs of silicone, so the tray wasn't bedded down on anything! He also cut out a massive hole for the waste, so the tray was completely unsupported over that area.

I'm now planning to take up that section of flooring and put down a new piece of marine ply or OSB, clean all the silicone off the tray and let the new plumbers install it properly.

Any tips for getting the silicone off the base of the tray? Presumably it doesn't matter if there is some residue on the tray, as the sand & cement (or tile adhesive) will level things out?

View attachment 30923

View attachment 30924

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View attachment 30926

Great job mate
What a clown , didnt even figure of six the silicone ,
The tiles and silicone finishing seal will cover them chips around the tray ,
All in all id say your good to go , bit of ply and a nice neatish hole for the waste ,
Id def spend a tenner on some ct1 or sticks like , for running round the underside of the waste to tray seal , it also helps it stop moving (depending on the waste finish) if people stand on the waste when showering , if you know what i mean ,.
Well worth doing , you will sleep easy knowing its all done correctly ,

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Multi tool and an old blade to get the spots off

How did it lift once you got underneath it ? Doesn't look like it stuck

 

[trf0412]

How did it lift once you got underneath it ? Doesn't look like it stuck

I sort of gently prised it up a few millimetres at a few points around the tray, then gradually built up the courage to apply a little more pressure. Eventually, on one attempt, I heard the sound of some of the silicone slowly tearing away from the flooring, so I went round the tray trying to repeat this at various points.

I also went along the two straight edges with a multitool to cut through the bead of silicone holding it to the wall as well as I could.

As the tray came up a few more millimetres I placed some magazines below the tray at several points to hold it up. This meant I could get the pry bar a little further under the tray to stop it slipping and chipping the edge of the tray.

When I was able to lift the tray a couple of centimetres, it started to hit the plaster that was overhanging the straight edges of the tray, so I used the pry bar on its side between the wall and the side of the tray to gently pull it away from the wall. This helped break the silicone holding the tray to the wall, and probably also helped with the few remaining blobs on the floor which were still holding on tight.

 

[Ric2013]

In fairness, I've seen leg kits that probably provide less support than that silicone would.

 

[trf0412]

So, the boss of the new plumbing firm I've gone with came round this morning to take a look at things. (Tiling has now been postponed to give them time to clear up the mess created by the first plumber). He wasn't happy about sink/bath/basin all going into one waste and has recommended running 3 new wastes into the soil pipe. These will have to dropped down to just below the ceiling in the lounge and be boxed in, as drilling even more holes through joists is definitely not an option.

He has also recommended cutting out the shower pipes to allow for copper elbows to come out of the wall, as currently the bit of copper coming out of the wall goes straight into a plastic pipe and the two pipes aren't even level!