Hep2o pipe inserts?

[Koogatubac]

This keeps me alive, my days of working are always like this lately

 

[Dannypipe]

Secondary returns in plastic used to be allowed. I priced up a job last year (maybe year before) and fortunately I was fitted UFH at the time, and read the gumf.

I saw no secondary returns allowed in plastic. Phoned rep, and technical it was something to do with the heat and chlorine if I remember correctly. (Havent' read KB's link).

So I priced it in copper, and used a coil of (soft) 15mm where it was a thread job. It worked a treat. I was careful not to kink it, or form any airlocks.

 

[Best]

The tiler is obviously an idiot & shouldn't be touching anything to do with plumbing.
Those inserts are critical to give a tapered end to the pipes or else the sharp straight cut on pipe will catch on the O ring & perhaps damage it. Also the inserts keep the pipe round. Other than these points, I think inserts can be left out on cold pipework, but why would you do without them?
That all said, I avoid plastic pipes & fittings unless I have to join up to them. Recently I had to work at fairly new pipework supplying a power shower unit in an attic all dome by a plumber. All was in plastic - mix of Hepworth, Speedfit & Polypipe pipe & fittings & no doubt inserts! There is no reason for doing this, so the plumber is incompetent IMO.

 

[Ermintrude]

You cannot use plastic on a secondary return due to the fact that it does not kill Legionella pneumophila . Where as copper and brass do on contact. Theory is that if water is sitting in return ( pump off) and you cycle cool 38c water where bacteria has multiplied, you then re circulate that 25% at top of cylinder, if water from plastic pipe bit hasn't been hot enough for long enough..... Some one is going to be ill.

 

[Best]

You cannot use plastic on a secondary return due to the fact that it does not kill Legionella pneumophila . Where as copper and brass do on contact. Theory is that if water is sitting in return ( pump off) and you cycle cool 38c water where bacteria has multiplied, you then re circulate that 25% at top of cylinder, if water from plastic pipe bit hasn't been hot enough for long enough..... Some one is going to be ill.

Now I hate plastic even more! :smile:
Just another thing to add to the list.

 

[gassafe]

That hep guide talks about 'continuous hot water loop' in non domestic situations... A secondary hot water loop would have a timer plus return stat if done correctly so I don't think a secondary hot water in a domestic house would count as continuous loop, unlike a hotel ot water type system??

There must be plenty of hep or plastic secondary returns out there...

Not sure about the legionella thing or we would not be able to use plastic on ot water systems would we?

 

[Killy Bing]

That hep guide talks about 'continuous hot water loop' in non domestic situations... A secondary hot water loop would have a timer plus return stat if done correctly so I don't think a secondary hot water in a domestic house would count as continuous loop, unlike a hotel ot water type system??

There must be plenty of hep or plastic secondary returns out there...

Not sure about the legionella thing or we would not be able to use plastic on ot water systems would we?

The timer is irrelevant apparently as it can be set to 24 hours.

this is why i like the plumbing shows like phex, you can fire away questions at them.
if they fail miserably then they give you freebies.
or ravenheat who bought me a few pints...

 

[gassafe]

The timer is irrelevant apparently as it can be set to 24 hours.

this is why i like the plumbing shows like phex, you can fire away questions at them.
if they fail miserably then they give you freebies.
or ravenheat who bought me a few pints...

Custards can run ther central heating 24 hours, but the hep will not go oval, distort and pull apart because it has not managed to have a relax cooling cycle...?

 

[gassafe]

Found this on the hep site, the continuous loop refers to hotels & care homes etc.... But they still say its not suitable for domestic properties...

A continuously operated re-circulating system is a water-replenished circulating system which is maintained at a constant high temperature to provide a constant source of hot water. Continuously operated re-circulating systems are used to distribute constant hot water to wards or rooms that may be distant from the heat source or hot water storage vessel. Locations where continuously operated re-circulating systems installations are used include, but are not limited to, residential care homes, hospitals and hotels. Continuously operated re-circulating systems are very different from conventional hot water supply and central heating systems found in domestic properties, for which our products have been tested to, under either BS 7291 Class S or WRAS approval standards, and for this reason Polyplumb, Polyfit or Polysure should not be used on any continuously operated re-circulating systems. Some secondary hot water circulation systems are used intermittently, controlled by time and/ or temperature thermostats. This application is also unsuitable for products manufactured to BS 7291. - See more at: Continuously Operated Re-Circulating Systems | Knowledge Centre | Plumbing & Heating

 

[Dannypipe]

So are you saying if there is a timer on the pump it's ok? Fair enough. Not what I was told by their tech help but I guess it figures.

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's got nowt to do with the suitability of the products for the application. It's all about the approval of the products. Products for use in secondary hot water circulation systems need to be tested and approved separately from products used in a normal hot water system. The cost of testing and approval isn't worth it for the limited market.

 

[Ermintrude]

Slightly different to the advice given by bpec and building control. And I believe wras
[DLMURL]http://www.eurofins.co.uk/news-archive/legionella-expert-calls-for-greater-vigilance.aspx[/DLMURL]

http://www.ukcopperboard.co.uk/literature/pdfs/Installation-Tips/Legionella-and-copper-plumbing.pdf

 

[acecharly]

I was told on a job a long time ago you had to put 18bar of pressure in to speedfit to open the joints up when comissioning it never checked if this was rite just got out the rothenburger and did as i was told. I definately wouldnt do that without inserts. Only time i dont use them is when im putting a speedfit fitting onto copper as its obviously stiff enough.

 

[Ermintrude]

18bar? Speed fit only rated 1 bar at 90c?

5 bar at. 25c

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Christ, I'd hate to be in that house with 18 bar in the speedfit :lol: