gas safety inspections

[Puddle]

Are gas safety inspections on rental properties really needed every year now,with new appliances being much safer
If fires or open flued appliances involved,then would say yes yearly

However if a combination boiler or system boiler and a hob/cooker fitted in the property,which so often is the case,is it really required ?
Maybe do every two,three,four years


After saying above,think a new gas safety inspection should be done every time tenancy is changed,even if only a few months after one has been done

My thinking for above,is I believe every home rented or private,should have a gas inspection done between certain periods

People say we do not have enough gas plumbers,however if, lets face it,less unnecessary rental inspections were required,this would free the work force ,to do more meaningful inspections were required and over all increase safety


imho

 

[REDSAW]

do we really need to go to the dentist every 6 months?

 

[CMairiD]

Are gas safety inspections on rental properties really needed every year now,with new appliances being much safer

Doing some practical experience last week, we AR'd a two-year old WB boiler for failing to make a good seal.

Or what about the family that had new roof put on, the roofers dislodged the vertical flue from the turret and POCs spilling into the kitchen. That had a brand new boiler too.

Even if you've got new appliances, that doesn't mean all pipework is brand new and it could have a non-permissible drop. The ECV could be letting by, WP @ the meter too high/too low ...

And let's not forget the nut-job that couldn't be bothered for phone in for a FREE repair. Instead he jams the air-pressure switch open with a pencil.

All these are true stories that have happened in our housing association over the last year and things that were caught by our service engineers. I think it pretty well justifies the need to do the inspection each year.

After saying above,think a new gas safety inspection should be done every time tenancy is changed,even if only a few months after one has been done

Absolutely, between each tenancy and mutual exchange.

 

[Bernie2]

Would agree with CmairiD. The problem with tenanted property is probably that people do not feel they own anything and so they may treat it a bit rough.

Change of tenancy gas check rules, should have been brought in as common sense rules years ago, I think.

Funny thing is, in private property and its said 80% of UK housing is private. I must admit I would doubt that 80% are private owned, if you include Housing Associations as Landlords, but I am prepared to be corrected.

In private property, there is no requirement to have a gas safety check at any time. Its advised you do of course, but they cannot force you too.

So for a gas fitter going to a private house, you may walk into situations in which nothing has been checked for many years in point some may even go back as far as Victorian times.

Not recently I must admit, but I have seen houses with their original gas lights as well as the gas taps in the skirting board.

And as to ventilation or flueing Aaaah!

But back to tenanted property. I think another reason is carbon mon oxide poisoning.

The free accident solicitors are right on to that one. Even the slightest suggestion an appliance is not burning correctly and could be putting out Carbon mon oxide fumes, can lead to some tenants making a claim. And yes they probably know the gas regs better than the gas fitter.

The thing is most Housing Associations seem a bit scared of the HSE and so settle quickly rather than fight a case. Its probably cheaper all round to settle out of court.

However the HSE does seem to have a reputation of wanting to jail people for the smallest of mistakes, so obviously not many want them involved.

But of course, if your the last fitter who tested the property, then you better get ready for a grilling from all sides and by knowledgeable people.

You can't fob them off, by declaring your a Gas Safe fitter and so should not be questioned, just your word accepted as law. No Siree!

You have to prove how you have done things and to what standards you did them. In point you may have to go back to a property and repeat all your tests and show people the results and how they agree or disagree with the recognised standards.

In other words you are held accountable for your own work and to prove you did things right.

Must admit, we sometimes perhaps slipped up by passing what we regarded as chance remarks to tenants, who then used our remarks as a basis for a claim.

You know the type of scenario: Fire burning yellow "Can't that be left?", "No", "Why?" "It could lead to carbon mon oxide being given off!"

"That is dangerous!" "Its been like that for weeks!" "Where is my brief?"

As to room sealed boilers, well there is probably some reason to think that on the whole they could perhaps be left for longer than 12 months. The thing is nobody wants to take a chance of tenant damage.

I suppose though with more safety features such as defective seal sensors which cut the boiler out and others like it, their service period could be extended.

But then, "Who has been kicking a ball at the flue terminal and crushed it?"

"Who planted that shrub and allowed it to grow into the air brick?" and "Who let the other shrub grow over the flue terminal?"

"Who moved grannies bed into the front room with the recently installed open flued gas fire and back boiler?"

"Who filled up the inside vent with paper to stop the draft?"

"Who filled the gas cupboard with gloss paint tins and gas bottles?"

And on and on!

And despite all, gas fitters still do things wrong at times, they are humans and can make mistakes. So checking each year makes sure any faults should be picked up in a maximum period of 12 months.

In point I think some Housing Associations gave their houses out to a different service company each year.
Basically that meant each company checked each others service work. Must admit been in loads of fights because of this.

I suppose what seems, the policy now, of handing all the service work over to one big company for years on end because of financial considerations, does have this draw back.

I must admit I have been to sites where I have classed a lot of the service work as sub standard to find it had probably been done by the company I was working for, for years.

Hmm! Yes I suppose, I was then as popular as a boil on the posterior.

 

[prs1]

Duty of Care wether needed or not the appliance could be brand new and the most reliable appliance ever made with a life time guarentee but what about the rest of the installation it could have been installed by a joiner!
No offence to any joiner out there!
Tennent could also tinker causing risk to those around

 

[Mbear]

I went to inspect a 6month old w/Bosch greenstar junior 24 about 3/4wks ago to make sure it would be suitable for our company to service&repair.

had a quick look at it before I took the casing off, all seemed ok. There was a piece of kitchen cupboard plinth blocking my view of the flue, so as u do I kneeled up onto the worktop to have a butchers, to my horror the flue turret was sitting About 1inch away from the top of the chb. The installer had clearly left it like that as my attemps to rectify where in vein, he had cut the core and fitted the flue at the complete wrong angle(downward/away from the chb). Needless to say I had to cut&cap/ID and leave a fairly large quote to rectify the shoddy flue install. So for safety reasons, annually and before new tenants should remain if not be increased IMO.

Plus landlords inspections keeps me ticking over in the summer months as I service/repair central heating and fit the odd boiler/heating systems only which are thin on the ground in this weather.

 

[wnjswozo]

we need all the work there is,bad idea.

 

[Puddle]

There would be more work as the idea is to release gas plumbers to inspect the private sector

I think all properties should be licensed to be able to use a gas appliances,like you need a TV license to have a TV
No license,no gas supply and you gain one by having a inspection certificate
After all gas safety is more important than what's on channel 4 at 8.30

I get fed up of going to a block of flats or row of houses to check a rented property and when checking outside flues,p/r pipes,external condensate pipework,the flat being inspected is all ok and many of the private properties have incorrectly fitted parts and that is just the out side

imho

 

[wnjswozo]

it will never happen,the only way could see how you could get an owner occupy
to have a cp12 is if the insurance companys insist on a annual inspection,which i think is the way to go.but an owner of property can install a boiler in there own house without being gsr,i know ,its a joke !

 

[Gassy]

You are right, all the time that gas appliances are sold at DIY stores and people can fit things themselves in their own homes, there is a potential for disaster. What will Gas Safe do about these people. Nothing is the answer.

I got into trouble for signing off a boiler fitted by a plumber friend whose registration lapsed.
You would have thought I was selling nuclear enrichment to the Iranians. It was pathetic.
Wrapped up in their little world of importance. It was not a case of the the plumber not being competent. No, they weren't interested in that. It was all about 'well he isn't paid up and signed up' to their little club.
There is one word for it and it ends in 'ollocks

 

[Bernie2]

The problem is legal really.

A DIY is not necessarily incompetent at gas work like its implied they all seem to be.

Its a chance they take, the onus on them is clear enough in the Gas Regs.

Would gas fitters be one of the first to moan if they did not allow even small electric jobs to be done in your own home? Its perhaps as dangerous as gas.

People can quite legally rewire all their own home and providing they get a local council inspection and safety test it is all above board.

But ask the same facility for own home gas work and everybody seems to go ballistic.

Why do people assume DIYers are incompetent?

They are not a different species they are ordinary people just like a gas fitter is.

Why can't they understand and learn how to install gas appliances, just like anybody else entering the gas fitting market as a professional can if given the right information?

After all that is what a gas fitter does.

Its perhaps only the amount of knowledge they have that separates a gas fitter from a DIYer.

The thing is that information should be free to all as a public safety service. It should also be extremely easy to give it in this internet age.

But then it would seem many people have gas knowledge who are not gas fitters, and having that knowledge still do not do DIY gas work.

Why?

To be classed as competent all must have a knowledge of what is involved in declaring yourself competent. Those who have the knowledge should know enough about the dangers not to do work they do not feel competent to do. It would seem it is not having the knowledge that stops them DIYing its having the knowledge.

The market for DIY goods is registered in billions, the market for trade goods is I imagine perhaps much smaller.

So what would be the commercial interest in not selling to the general public for these big companies?

Say gas appliance manufacturers did the same to the gas market and restricted supply to themselves? Where would gas fitters be then?

If safety is the concern, then make gas inspections cheap enough for everybody and the general public and DIYers would probably get one done as a matter of course, in point you could make it a legal requirement.

Also if gas fitters rates where cheap enough the DIY may very well call them in before doing it themselves.

Working as a cowboy installer for money is a whole different thing.

In that your selling a service which you should be legal allowed and checked competent to provide.

I must admit though mine does seem a minority point of view on these matters.

 

[prs1]

To be classed as competant you must have your ACS and appropriate elements!

Like it or not this is how its proved. yes the laws or regs can be an bum but as they say ingnorance is no excuse!

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Its not that clear cut, it would seem.

If you have an ACS it implies safety competence.

Why do Gas Safe come out and inspect your work before they allow you fully on the register, if having an ACS by itself is proof of competence?

Surely they come out to see if you have done your installations to the standards required, ACS or not?

Supposing they inspected an installation and found it to be to standard?

They would never know if somebody with an ACS or not had done it, being installed to the standards is proof enough for them.

What the argument is probably:

How do people know what the standards are and where do they get the information about the standards from?

An ACS is of course a test to prove you know what the safety standards are in one sense.

But an ACS has nothing to do with where you got that knowledge from.

You could have learnt it out of a book just like anybody else could. You are only required for Cat 3, I think, to work with somebody or a company that does gas work for a short period to qualify for sitting an ACS.

Gas Safe know that, so like CORGI they inspect your work and interview you to see if you really come up to standard in the real world.

If you do a good job then your in. But lets be honest anybody with gas knowledge even a DIYer with gas knowledge could do a good job, doing a good job is not confined only to ACS holders.

So competence as the law stands is hard to define.

However this must be stressed only applies to work in your own home and you must take all responsibility for the work you do and its a lot, with sever penalties. It must also be said it applies to Gas Safe registered people as well.

Outside the home everybody working on gas is required to be Gas Safe registered.

 

[prs1]

But not in court, if a person is capable of producing a perfect job even by gas safe reg;s standards they are still not competant because they have not had the appropriate training therefore they can not prove it.
These are the laws and acts that define and govern the way that things have to be done.
You cant just disregard part which appear to be un reasonable or hard to interpretate.
I feel that we as people with the no how have to uphold this or imho it would make me no better than a cowboy.
I also agree that the system isnt right and needs to be tighter to stop people from carrying out leagally poor work.
Everybody thats GSR isnt always competant.
Always a pleasure Bernie as once again u have provoked me into typing,long may it last!

 

[Bernie2]

Thing is prs1

I am not really being provocative I don't think, many leading gas authorities seem to say exactly the same thing.

How you prove gas competence for work in your own home, is one area that needs clearing up.

All an ACS goes some way to proving, is that you have been tested on gas safety. But like a learner car driver driving by themselves, it is not allowed on the open road, but its quite legal to do on private property.

What I was getting at though is not so much the legality as gaining the knowledge.

To me, reading what the mails on the forum say it costs for these training programs seems a disgrace, it seems its a money making racket which should not be allowed.

In the old days, if you worked for a company they taught you what they wanted you to do. Now it looks like they may want you to pay them or somebody else, to learn what they want you to do.

Lets be straight, if they will not take you on without qualification, then even though you may not work for them, they are asking you to be already qualified.

Which basically means if you want to work for them you have to get qualified before you do.

Bit like an army asking for its troops to be trained before they take them on.

That is back to front madness. And what annoys me a bit,is that the industry is rolling in cash at a certain level that could be spent on free training and making gas knowledge accessible to all.

I am not anti training providers just the way guys looking for jobs or career changes seem to be getting exploited. And yes of course safety is more a prime concern, I think with more knowledge comes more safety. So why not make the knowledge free?

 

[prs1]

No not at all Bernie i only meant i felt the need to reply!
I also agree that Training should be more accsesable-The training centers are out there selling pups to anyone that will buy one and its plain to see that the biggest motivation to train with them is the money that they think is going to be available as soon as they pass!
Also I agree that ACS is flawed anyone who can read and retain a given amount of knowledge can pass.
Our assesment process is far from ideal Our regs our written by lawyers and very grey in areas as well as outdated in others,But its what we have at present and it wont be me and thee that change it,may be when the next generation comes through.
Probably wont be long before there issueing Fixed penalty notices for illeagll work.
Although our views may differ on some issues i welcome a differance of opion.

 

[oldplumber]

i could drive a car, tractor and trailor, motorbike at 12 but in the eyes of the law i wasnt competent to do so on the road as i hadnt passed a test that i couldnt take until i was 16/17. gas work is the same, no pass exams , no do the work simplees not difficult to explain or understand

 

[kirkgas]

There would be more work as the idea is to release gas plumbers to inspect the private sector

I think all properties should be licensed to be able to use a gas appliances,like you need a TV license to have a TV
No license,no gas supply and you gain one by having a inspection certificate
After all gas safety is more important than what's on channel 4 at 8.30

I get fed up of going to a block of flats or row of houses to check a rented property and when checking outside flues,p/r pipes,external condensate pipework,the flat being inspected is all ok and many of the private properties have incorrectly fitted parts and that is just the out side

imho

you dont need a TV licence to watch ch4, the licence is to pay the BBC, how many cars that pass your kids every day on the way to school have had their brakes checked every year by a qualified mechanic

 

[Puddle]

you dont need a TV licence to watch ch4

Being pedantic, yes you do, you can not have a TV without a licence, can not even watch sky

Are not brakes checked in the yearly mot

Are we saying gas boilers do not need checking like cars,can they not become just as unsafe?

The more I think of it ,the more I think all should get gas appliances check at a set period

 

[Assessor Gas]

Since 200, the HSE have been trying to make it mandatory for all installations private and public to be inspected annually, that's because they have the real accident stats !! There just insn't the work force. I train in this industry and the amount of undergassed new appliances out there is frightening. The flue analyser will tell you its burning nice and lean, but whats happening inside the heat exchange when the appliance starts scaling is downright deadly, and leads to vitiation. (Make sure you run the boiler for 10mins before using the analyser - there is a really good reason for this). I recommend undergassed boilers are all checked x 2 annually, and this is most of them !! Who does operating pressure with just the appliance they are testing running, and who checks it per regulations with all runing to confirm your pressure loss ?? The more beneficial reason for servicing annually is what do you think the Insurance company does when the back of your house lands in the road. Do They pay 50,000 rebuild costs or look to see if you were sensible enough to have your gas checked annually. I am giving away some top secret clues here that we are not supposed to know, but hey ho ! - Your 5,000 payout will not put bricks back on your house let alone pay the mortgage on your rubble. !! Check your contents insurance too. Many insurance companies even pay for your repairs upto £500 when an appliance breaks down, or a rad hits the floor !!! But only if the appliance/installation has been serviced regularly and has an up to date certificate !!!. Forget Breakdown Insurance, how about a decent service contract annually, not just on the boiler ? Most people only service them for fear of them breaking down, time someone told them its to stop it killing them !! ! I could go on all night !! But - More money for the engineers, means more money to train up to date; and more time spent looking after gas safety. I wouldn't leave a box of fireworks under my floor or in my bedroom for more than a year without checking them. There are accidents weekly, but The Gas Safe TV ADs cant use them as leverage to get people to check their gas because who is going to check all the new calls, the millions of new unchecked engineers who will flood the market. We just had an HSE Contractor change as we all know so that the 8 million squid a year plus contract for public awareness could actually be spent. There is a lot of work to be done here, and massive opportunities. But first we need a competent work force who strive at 100% public safety. No body passes their gas exams with 99% or less its got to be 100% !!! Boiler Scrappage !! Commercialism, The new boiler has a much poorer shelf life and i am sure its not only me, but when i was taking out a 12kw Boiler with Cast Iron Heat Exchange i was wondering why the new one with a small Aluminium heat exchgange needed which was not really up to the job needed to have a much higher heat input ?? Energy Saving ?? More like higher bills, and less consumption for more money. OK Think its time i ducked !! But really - Good news is we are making a living out of it, but what about selling some good old gas safety for a change. There is millions to be made by addressing this, especially when installing anew appliance. Bring back the old rolls royce Boilers (SMILE).

 

[tamz]

Bring back the old rolls royce Boilers (SMILE).

I wasn't a Rolls it was an E Type

 

[nellyc79]

it will never happen,the only way could see how you could get an owner occupy
to have a cp12 is if the insurance companys insist on a annual inspection,which i think is the way to go.but an owner of property can install a boiler in there own house without being gsr,i know ,its a joke !

Yes thats right you don't have to be GSR to do any gas work in your own house!! BUT you still have to be competent to do gas work and would still need to prove your quals and still need to follow all gas regulations. Its not quite as bad as all those plumbers out there that are doing gas work on lots of other peoples houses who don't know what a regulation is!!! and there is alot of them!! The trouble is we never find them until they have blown some1 up!! and to be honest alot of it is publics fault for letting some1 do work on there house without proper credentials. How do you stop the cheap skates???

 

[Bernie2]

The thing is you probably won't.

You can educate people about the dangers of doing it in their own home and also so that they know a good job being done from a bad one, so the "cowboy" gets away with less.

Lets be frank, "cowboys" usually get away with things because the person they are doing it for don't know much about the work they are letting the "cowboy" do.

The next is price.

If prices are to high then people will be tempted to go for a cheap price no questions asked. Make prices cheap enough and they probably will not bother to get anybody other than a registered person (Which however by itself, it seems is no guarantee of good work, which seems to take us back to letting the customer have free access to info so they can decide for themselves, whether they are getting a good job or not)

If you think about it, the cowboy problem is not new its been going on for years and its still not been stopped.

Funnily enough I went to the theatre recently to watch a play written in about 1908 about the building trade then. The short cut guys where being moaned about even then.

As you say "How do you control it?"

Possibly let every one who wants to work on gas be registered with Gas Safe, ACS or not and let their work be inspected.
Make training cheap and free for all, so a cowboy has no excuse for not getting trained.
Increase Gas Safe inspectors exponentially to the number of gas fitters.
You could expand the market in a few ways to incorporate private houses in regular servicing. You could ask for cash off the big companies to help finance it.
Private people could be charged on their gas bill for an annual service and the money sent to Gas Safe to dole out services to its members.

At least then, perhaps every property would be inspected by someone once a year.
Imagine though the spin off repair business if your prices are affordable?

There are loads of things you probably could do.

 

[Assessor Gas]

Sorry my last post should have said 2004. There is a good and a bad side to all this. The good news is that there is so much work out there that the we'll not be running dry soon. Since neither Gas Safe to date not Corgi previously have taken any forward action in addressing this. (If i was in their boots I am Not sure what on earth i would be doing), but i am seeing some great ideas. perhaps we can can get together and offer a tender for the next registration body, laugh).

The money boys can pass laws making it illegal to fit anything but an energy efficient boiler, when it costs nearly twice as much to run them as it did say an old Potterton Profile. (Namely 14kw versus 24 kw for the same heat levels at the HW Cyl and Rads, perhaps food for a new thread, cos i can't be the only who knows this ??). So its gotta be worth something. Perhaps somebody can think of a reason how the powers that be can make big money outta gas safety and then the laws will come.

To add to the good news, why not start promoting it to your own customers. I don't know of many engineers who actually build a solid client list. In and out, or to the next job, selling parts and repairs, new boilers, but there is good money in Gas Safety.

Sell Sell Sell "GAS SAFETY" probably 80 + % of houses out there that we visit have got gas safety needs ! And they all need to be checked annually !! Only yesterday during and engineer inspection, the property owner advised that the installation engineer said the boiler would never need to be serviced, it was safe !!! (It was a 14yr old Posi Draught Boiler)- So not to mention the obvious safety implications, he has thrown away 10 + years work and hords of recommendations !!! Come on you lads

 

[Kayjsharp]

Gas inspection is essential, and it is required from time to time. You will have to consider getting these inspections done on a regular basis. Make sure you check your gas leaks by yourself too. It is possible to inspect them yourself if you have the required knowledge.