Search the forum,

Fernox Tf1 total filter reversed flow

Post new thread

Discuss Fernox Tf1 total filter reversed flow in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

DaveB0360 said:
Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info, always good to learn something new
 
Riley said:
Reel it in a bit mate. We are trying to help. For free I might add. Trust us, based on some shockers we see this isn’t anywhere close to the worst. That is not however saying that this is acceptable. Obviously not a confident solderer as there’s no need to use Yorkshire’s where he has. The big thing here is the lack of commissioning documentation which I’d be reporting him for. And also I think my colleague was alluding to the TF1 having it’s attaching body rotated not the cylinder itself so please don’t take us for simpletans. Ps quoting thermosiphons and the like are all very well but are rarely necessary. It’s starting to sound more and more like you have looked over this blokes shoulder throughout to be honest if you did that to me I’d be rushing to get out the door. Furthermore, because you can solder does not make you able to pipesize, or system design, you may be able to but it’s inconsequential you’ve employed this guy to do a job. My advice. Stop worrying, get gas safe in for a free assessment, get put right whatever they pick up and move on. Life is too short. This started off friendly let’s keep it that way eh?
Click to expand...
Riley, I appreciate the help and not intentionally being awkward or disrespectful. I certainly didn't stand over his shoulder but I did observe of course, I thought his methods might have been worth learning..... I like to learn, always have even at nearly 60, still like to learn. Perhaps if I had checked him along the way, I might not have ended up with such a dogs breakfast and perhaps if he'd taken offense and walked off the job, I'd have been better off. I had higher expectations but perhaps my expectations are too high. I don't know but if I've offended then I apologise regardless. I'm most certainly going to take yours and others advice.
And as I write this, I seem to smell a little gas.... Better go check.... Goodnight and many thanks.
 
DaveB0360 said:
Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.
Click to expand...
It's actually not called gravitational flow but I forget the correct terminology.... Lol
 
I've had many RGI's over the years (including 3 for work in the last 5 years) - I've yet to meet one that deburrs the pipes! To be fair to them, it is time consuming and they are probably usually employed based on the price they give, so deburring would add to their time and cost. However, it would be nice if they were to give the option for somebody who knows what deburring is. I suppose your average joe wouldn't.

Pipe cleaning is usually a given, though. They'd be unlikely to get a good soldered joint if they didn't do so on old pipework.
 
fezster said:
I've had many RGI's over the years (including 3 for work in the last 5 years) - I've yet to meet one that deburrs the pipes! To be fair to them, it is time consuming and they are probably usually employed based on the price they give, so deburring would add to their time and cost. However, it would be nice if they were to give the option for somebody who knows what deburring is. I suppose your average joe wouldn't.

Pipe cleaning is usually a given, though. They'd be unlikely to get a good soldered joint if they didn't do so on old pipework.
Click to expand...
Exactly, I fear that's the case across most trades nowadays. Corners can be cut unnoticeably by most tradesmen because customers are generally clueless and have little interest in anything but the price. I'd have paid the guy double for a quality, craftsman like job but I think, where I live, most people are poor and price is the only thing that gets the sale. I'm not wealthy by any stretch but I place value on quality and in my experience, it's worth sacrifice.
 
DaveB0360 said:
Exactly, I fear that's the case across most trades nowadays. Corners can be cut unnoticeably by most tradesmen because customers are generally clueless and have little interest in anything but the price. I'd have paid the guy double for a quality, craftsman like job but I think, where I live, most people are poor and price is the only thing that gets the sale. I'm not wealthy by any stretch but I place value on quality and in my experience, it's worth sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Did you make this known before the job started?
 
scott_d said:
I doubt many people deburr pipe, its not required.
Any joints I solder and dont clean are green the next day! maybe I use the wrong flux.
Click to expand...
Laco has that trait..... He used fernox flux..... Not a problem, it seemed a good clean flux but my main gripe was that he never cleaned the copper before fluxing, even when obviously tarnished, that left even him doubting some joints when drips appeared after power up.... It was condensation but he doubted his own joints.
 
scott_d said:
Did you make this known before the job started?
Click to expand...
Yep, I told him I was fussy, was more interested in a good job and that almost word for word, I've obviously got a budget but I wasn't out to Rob anyone..... Which I thought was a fair upfront and honest approach. He gave his price, I never haggled and agreed immediately, even paid him a £50 tip for at least turning up on time and he was clearly a good worker.... And a nice personable guy.
I offered to labour for him, which I did, I bought everything needed but he seemed to prefer using his own Yorkshire fittings mostly, rather than the endex end feed ones I'd bought.... No big deal really.
 
fezster said:
I've had many RGI's over the years (including 3 for work in the last 5 years) - I've yet to meet one that deburrs the pipes! To be fair to them, it is time consuming and they are probably usually employed based on the price they give, so deburring would add to their time and cost. However, it would be nice if they were to give the option for somebody who knows what deburring is. I suppose your average joe wouldn't.

Pipe cleaning is usually a given, though. They'd be unlikely to get a good soldered joint if they didn't do so on old pipework.
Click to expand...
Admittedly all my pipework was new but its still good craftsmanship to clean and all my new joints were routinely cleaned & deburred.
 
I see your point about deburring and I don't. You really need to consider what the deburring is achieving. While I myself do like to use a pen deburrer whenever possible, I can accept that in most cases the speed of flow is unlikely to result in significant turbulence. After all, since 22mm has twice the volume of 15mm, it is likely that almost all 22mm application is actually not correct pipe sizing, but over-engineering (but it avoids using obscure pipe sizes that are not readily available). Short of doing a full pipe run calculation, it would be impossible to comment. Very probably, all I'm usually achieving is wasting time.

I worked with a guy once who was obsessed about the need to run pulled bends rather than elbows to a radiator that was right next to the boiler, while on the same system there were radiators at a great distance. All I was thinking was that any reduction in flow resistance from the pulled bends would just mean increased balancing would be required to ensure the distant radiators received adequate flow.

Anti-thermosiphon loops are not that uncommon, and, if you think about it, the need for the vent pipe running from a hot water cylinder to be 18" away from the cylinder outlet and connected by a near-horizontal pipe is to prevent parasitical circulation, one-pipe circulation, unwanted thermosiphoning or whatever you want to call it, so it's much the same thing. But we do all call it different things and I must say that, while I have both used and come across such loops in the course of my work, they were not really explained to me at college and so I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to be called either!
 
Ric2013 said:
I see your point about deburring and I don't. You really need to consider what the deburring is achieving. While I myself do like to use a pen deburrer whenever possible, I can accept that in most cases the speed of flow is unlikely to result in significant turbulence. After all, since 22mm has twice the volume of 15mm, it is likely that almost all 22mm application is actually not correct pipe sizing, but over-engineering (but it avoids using obscure pipe sizes that are not readily available). Short of doing a full pipe run calculation, it would be impossible to comment. Very probably, all I'm usually achieving is wasting time.

I worked with a guy once who was obsessed about the need to run pulled bends rather than elbows to a radiator that was right next to the boiler, while on the same system there were radiators at a great distance. All I was thinking was that any reduction in flow resistance from the pulled bends would just mean increased balancing would be required to ensure the distant radiators received adequate flow.

Anti-thermosiphon loops are not that uncommon, and, if you think about it, the need for the vent pipe running from a hot water cylinder to be 18" away from the cylinder outlet and connected by a near-horizontal pipe is to prevent parasitical circulation, one-pipe circulation, unwanted thermosiphoning or whatever you want to call it, so it's much the same thing. But we do all call it different things and I must say that, while I have both used and come across such loops in the course of my work, they were not really explained to me at college and so I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to be called either!
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input.... I am a fussy bugger but I actually assumed that with all the hype over the essential mandating of gas safe rgi's, that standards were very high..... Needless to say, I've had a rude awakening and now have eroded trust in tradesmen.... Common for me.
 
DaveB0360 said:
Thanks for your input.. I am a fussy bugger but I actually assumed that with all the hype over the essential mandating of gas safe rgi's, that standards were very high... Needless to say, I've had a rude awakening and now have eroded trust in tradesmen.. Common for me.
Click to expand...

Gas Safe Registration is about making sure that the installation is safe and has been properly tested not so much whether the pipework is pretty to look at.

If you are fussy about the 'finish' on the work to be done then you need to see examples (or photographs) of their recent work to check that their normal working standard matches your expectations.
 
Chuck said:
Gas Safe Registration is about making sure that the installation is safe and has been properly tested not so much whether the pipework is pretty to look at.

If you are fussy about the 'finish' on the work to be done then you need to see examples (or photographs) of their recent work to check that their normal working standard matches your expectations.
Click to expand...
Well as far as I'm concerned it's a fail on all fronts but hey ho.... Happy new year...
 
tbh its a average install

it wont matter that much on the tf1 as its just swirl the other way round the magnet but you can swap it round easily since your an engineer takes less than 10 seconds
 
DaveB0360 said:
Laco has that trait... He used fernox flux... Not a problem, it seemed a good clean flux but my main gripe was that he never cleaned the copper before fluxing, even when obviously tarnished, that left even him doubting some joints when drips appeared after power up.. It was condensation but he doubted his own joints.
Click to expand...

we all do well i do
 
how much did you pay for the install labour? roughly
 
round about a day to day and a half then to complete ?
 
i feel thats good valve for money tbh
 
DaveB0360 said:
No powerflush... Brand new full house rads and copper.. My own installation which he was impressed with. The original fitter was impressed.. Even offered me a job.. All properly sized etc...
Click to expand...

get him back to fill out the benchmark and reg with intergas for warranty and you will be ok
 
I have to say with the greatest of respect I’d still be powerflushing and pressure testing someone else’s work. But if as said above he’s done none of the paperwork then why would he bother?
 
New posts

Reply to Fernox Tf1 total filter reversed flow in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Similar plumbing topics

P
Repeated Airlock in Bathroom
Hi, Can anyone advise as to why the cold water to my bathroom keeps airlocking? This originally happened about 12 months ago and has happened 3-4 times since. It’s an upstairs bathroom, fed from a tank in the attic. The tank is about 8 Meters away and feeds a bath, sink and toilet. The tank...
Replies
9
Views
365
Chuck
C
Creating content since 2001. Untold Media.

Newest Plumbing Threads

Electrical Forum for Electrical Advice
Tile Advice
UK Tiling Forum
Tilezine Tiling News Tile Association
Tiling Forums UK
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock