Fernox Tf1 total filter reversed flow

[DaveB0360]

Hi all, am new to this forum & hoping for assistance with new installation of Fernox TF1 Total filter.

Have a new Intergas Rapid 25 boiler installed by gas safe engineer but he's installed the filter with reversed flow.
The return pipe drops behind boiler to 500mm below boiler and the engineer has fitted it into the downward leg of the return pipe instead of the upward leg to boiler return tail. The arrow on the filter is in upward direction against the downward flow direction of the system. How significant is this for the filter/system and what's the best way to correct this for maximum filter effect please. The engineer is not liky to be available to correct his work.
Thanks in advance

 

[sammathias]

The arrow pointing towards the boiler on the return pipework?

 

[Riley]

I’m guessing op means water is running through the filter top to bottom. Really doesn’t make any difference there are bigger stresses on an install as TF1 can be fitted on multiple angles

 

[DaveB0360]

The arrow pointing towards the boiler on the return pipework?

OK..... Return pipe runs behind boiler in downwards direction to the top of the tf1 filter port which should be the exit port of the filter, according to flow arrow on the port. Opposing the flow arrow. Return water exits bottom of filter port then turns upwards towards return tail of boiler.
This is opposite flow direction shown by the arrow.
I'll try to post a photo....

 

[DaveB0360]

I’m guessing op means water is running through the filter top to bottom. Really doesn’t make any difference there are bigger stresses on an install as TF1 can be fitted on multiple angles

Correct, the flow is running through filter port in reverse direction to the arrow on the tf1 hub.
Rang fernox tech & they state that filter will be ineffective with this flow arrangement.
TBH, I'm super unimpressed by the fitter who has bodged several aspects of the install, including the vertical flue through pitched Roof.... No brackets, strange angle and storm collar canted on the lead slate with clearly visible opening showing. Worried about how to rectify this. He never even secured surrounding slates, they're just loosely placed.

 

[Riley]

Get gas safe involved. They won’t be concerned about the filter but the other issues are bad. The filter is very easily rectified. Isolate the filter, drain it, remove it, spin the connectors 180°, reattach, refill, bleed, Robert is your mothers brother. I still maintain that it really won’t make a vast difference. But to be fair that’s why I don’t fit TF1s I think they’re tat

 

[DaveB0360]

Get gas safe involved. They won’t be concerned about the filter but the other issues are bad. The filter is very easily rectified. Isolate the filter, drain it, remove it, spin the connectors 180°, reattach, refill, bleed, Robert is your mothers brother. I still maintain that it really won’t make a vast difference. But to be fair that’s why I don’t fit TF1s I think they’re tat

So what do you fit? And how to get gas safe involved? Been to their website and it only offers an application form to present installation for inspection.

 

[Riley]

Give them a call, tell them you’ve been less than impressed with your installer. They will carry out a free inspection for you

 

[DaveB0360]

Get gas safe involved. They won’t be concerned about the filter but the other issues are bad. The filter is very easily rectified. Isolate the filter, drain it, remove it, spin the connectors 180°, reattach, refill, bleed, Robert is your mothers brother. I still maintain that it really won’t make a vast difference. But to be fair that’s why I don’t fit TF1s I think they’re tat

I feel terrible about the prospects of getting the fitter into trouble. I'm a competent fitter and installed all the rads & pipework in copper myself with no issues as I've done many times in past (I'm electronics engineer) I decided not to risk boiler install from legal viewpoint and assumed an experienced gas safe engineer would be impeccable. Sadly not. I watched the guy work and he never cleaned or deburred any joints before soldering, never wiped excess flux, etc etc.... Pipe layout is dire. Never set burner or checked combustion and never did any commissioning checks or setup at all. Frankly, I'm shocked at his poor workmanship.....he never even filled out the benchmark form.... Took the serial number and said he'd do gas safe registration from home.

 

[Riley]

Well many of us do, do the gas safe registration from home as it’s usually the last job and you don’t have to be stood in the customers house to do it. The benchmark as far as I’m concerned is key. It should be completed to show the correct commissioning procedure. So he didn’t use a flue gas analyser?? Burner shouldn’t really need adjusting out of the box but should be checked. To be honest it’s not a case of getting the engineer in trouble. If he’s qualified he should know what he should be doing and not cut corners. Being gas safe is sadly no guarantee of workmanship. I always show customers pics of my installs or am happy to provide previous customers details for reference. The pipe runs could be down to a lack of communication. If you don’t specify then it is down to engineers best judgement. Show us some pics

 

[DaveB0360]

Well many of us do, do the gas safe registration from home as it’s usually the last job and you don’t have to be stood in the customers house to do it. The benchmark as far as I’m concerned is key. It should be completed to show the correct commissioning procedure. So he didn’t use a flue gas analyser?? Burner shouldn’t really need adjusting out of the box but should be checked. To be honest it’s not a case of getting the engineer in trouble. If he’s qualified he should know what he should be doing and not cut corners. Being gas safe is sadly no guarantee of workmanship. I always show customers pics of my installs or am happy to provide previous customers details for reference. The pipe runs could be down to a lack of communication. If you don’t specify then it is down to engineers best judgement. Show us some pics

I need to go charge phone then I'll post some pics. I hate being critical, especially when he's the guy that's invested in his qualifications, not me. But I know I could truly have done a better job and have done pre gas safe days. Trapped condensate pipework etc.... Doesn't inspire confidence in employing 'skilled' supposed craftsmen.

 

[DaveB0360]

Well many of us do, do the gas safe registration from home as it’s usually the last job and you don’t have to be stood in the customers house to do it. The benchmark as far as I’m concerned is key. It should be completed to show the correct commissioning procedure. So he didn’t use a flue gas analyser?? Burner shouldn’t really need adjusting out of the box but should be checked. To be honest it’s not a case of getting the engineer in trouble. If he’s qualified he should know what he should be doing and not cut corners. Being gas safe is sadly no guarantee of workmanship. I always show customers pics of my installs or am happy to provide previous customers details for reference. The pipe runs could be down to a lack of communication. If you don’t specify then it is down to engineers best judgement. Show us some pics

He used a sniffer to check for gas leaks but that's it, never checked anything else.

 

[Riley]

So never even did a tightness test at the meter. I’m calling not gas safe

 

[DaveB0360]

So never even did a tightness test at the meter. I’m calling not gas safe

Now that, I'm not sure about, I left him to do the gas pipework in the outside box so couldn't say exactly what he did at meter (it was a new main connection, house had never had gas in before). He set his sniffer off to calibrate but I never saw him use it.... Not indoors anyway.

 

[Aire]

Haha, love how your initial concern is with the filter and then on a side note describe a very poor and possibly dangerous gas installation . I don't know why you feel bad at possibly getting the fitter into trouble, you've paid a professional to come into your home and by the sounds of it all he has done is put you and your family at risk. I wouldn't think twice about notifying gas safe.

 

[snowhead]

You need to get this sorted out.
If there's a warranty issue with the boiler the first thing the manufacturer will want is the Benchmark paperwork.
If the guy is not registered you'll have to pay for any repairs.

First I'd contact the Guy who fitted it and ask him to fill in the Benchmark paperwork and say you have concerns about all that you've stated.

The flue is a serious situation.
He'll need to employ a roofer as he clearly doesn't have the appropriate skills.

If it turns out the guy that fitted it is not Gassafe you'll end up having to have the boiler removed and refitted by someone who is.
But by that time Gassafe must have got involved.

 

[DaveB0360]

Haha, love how your initial concern is with the filter and then on a side note describe a very poor and possibly dangerous gas installation . I don't know why you feel bad at possibly getting the fitter into trouble, you've paid a professional to come into your home and by the sounds of it all he has done is put you and your family at risk. I wouldn't think twice about notifying gas safe.

Hi, my initial was intended to see how effective this forum might be at providing some help, responses were helpful, thanks, so I then thought I'd sound out any respondents on their opinions of other concerns I have.
I'm a very fastidious person and like things done right. I was grateful for this fitter coming out and getting us up & running because we were cold with no heating. So when he powered the system up and we were warm at last, we celebrated and were happy. It's only since, that I've been trying to finish the job (box work, earthing etc) that I've noticed these errors. I showed him the flue from an upstairs window and he simply said, I don't think rain will get in. Not the response I was expecting so I looked in more detail. I've got a detector nearby and not had any alerts but I doubt flue the flue will survive one of our northeast Coast storms.

 

[DaveB0360]

You need to get this sorted out.
If there's a warranty issue with the boiler the first thing the manufacturer will want is the Benchmark paperwork.
If the guy is not registered you'll have to pay for any repairs.

First I'd contact the Guy who fitted it and ask him to fill in the Benchmark paperwork and say you have concerns about all that you've stated.

The flue is a serious situation.
He'll need to employ a roofer as he clearly doesn't have the appropriate skills.

If it turns out the guy that fitted it is not Gassafe you'll end up having to have the boiler removed and refitted by someone who is.
But by that time Gassafe must have got involved.

Thanks for the advice. I checked him with gas safe and he was a genuine gas safe registered fitter. His qualifications included 'non masonry flue' so assumed he could competently install the flue. I even precision cut the elliptical ceiling opening for him .... There were also references on a local Web site praising him so I thought I'd be in safe hands.

 

[DaveB0360]

Thanks for the advice. I checked him with gas safe and he was a genuine gas safe registered fitter. His qualifications included 'non masonry flue' so assumed he could competently install the flue. I even precision cut the elliptical ceiling opening for him .. There were also references on a local Web site praising him so I thought I'd be in safe hands.

Here's some photos.

 

[Aire]

Obviously we cant see everything from the photos but nothing immediately concerns me with those photos, obviously I can't see how the tiles are fixed but I can't see the gap you mention. The filter looks Ok but again I can't see which way the direction arrow is pointing, if it's pointing up then all is good. So the only concerning parts is the benchmark not filled it, the flue not been clipped and the possibility he hasn't commissioned the boiler, and the condensate looks like it might be running slighlty up hill. If you are generally concerned then you can either call gas safe or another local engineer to come and check it over.

 

[DaveB0360]

Obviously we cant see everything from the photos but nothing immediately concerns me with those photos, obviously I can't see how the tiles are fixed but I can't see the gap you mention. The filter looks Ok but again I can't see which way the direction arrow is pointing, if it's pointing up then all is good. So the only concerning parts is the benchmark not filled it, the flue not been clipped and the possibility he hasn't commissioned the boiler, and the condensate looks like it might be running slighlty up hill. If you are generally concerned then you can either call gas safe or another local engineer to come and check it over.

OK, like you say, you can't see all from the photos. The arrow on the tf1 is indeed pointing upwards but the return pipe connected to the upper port is flowing downwards from a downwards return pipe from behind the boiler. The lower port bends upwards to the return tail of boiler.
The flue is way off vertical for starters, is not held to any structure in the roof by any clamp or brackets, it's only held by its own downwards weight and a loose fitting collar of the lead slate. The roof slates are layered loosely behind the upwards section of the flue.
The condensate pipework is forced behind the filter pipework. There's an adey calmag cold supply filter tightly fitted between other pipes running downwards and is dripping but no space to get wrench on it to tighten up. Out of shot are also 2 crossovers that are not freely crossing, they are forced against the pipes they're crossing over. The mains supply cable has been scarred with heat from the torch, as has a few areas of the boiler under tray.
I could go on..... Yes, I'm fussy but there are several areas that are clearly and unnecessarily bodged.
Having watched the guy work, I don't believe he has the skills or finesse to put this right to a satisfactory standard so I can't see any sense in confronting him with a view to putting it right.
I'm screwed I reckon..

 

[Aire]

Sorry I see what you mean about the filter now, so the return comes down through the filter and then back up again to the boiler, so yes that is wrong. The flue is very dangerous too. Your right not to trust the engineer to put it right, if he's capable of tidy and safe work he would have done it properly in the first place. Your only option is to get another engineer to put it right, it's going to cost you but its needs doing.

 

[DaveB0360]

Sorry I see what you mean about the filter now, so the return comes down through the filter and then back up again to the boiler, so yes that is wrong. The flue is very dangerous too. Your right not to trust the engineer to put it right, if he's capable of tidy and safe work he would have done it properly in the first place. Your only option is to get another engineer to put it right, it's going to cost you but its needs doing.

Annoys me primarily because we didn't hammer down his price or haggle or nit pick. I supplied all pipe, fittings, filter etc and even paid him £50 ott as a Christmas tip. When he came to view the job, he didn't put ladders up properly, slipped off them, destroyed the bathroom door, scratched and part damage our new bathroom rad and twisted the pipework.... That should have been my clue..... But we were cold and desperate and our original fitter couldn't get to us as originally arranged.... Kicking myself now.... You live & learn I guess. But for the gas safe regs, I'd have done it right myself. He didn't even seem to know what the anti thermosiphon leg was for in the supply pipe.... But he did it more or less the way I specified..... And it works!!

 

[Aire]

Pfft, he didn't even know what an anti thermosiphon leg was for, what an idiot

 

[DaveB0360]

Pfft, he didn't even know what an anti thermosiphon leg was for, what an idiot

Well, he looked mystified when I mentioned it as a feature of intergas piping, instead of a check valve, I suggested a 600mm drop loop instead.

I'm gonna try see when the first engineer is available next, he was referred by family electrician that I trust.
Just wish the law wasn't such an bum and I could do it all myself like I used to.
Thanks all.

 

[Ric2013]

Not many RGIs would put up with working for an engineer who makes suggestions, to be honest. I do do work for an engineer and find it interesting, but we have some interesting discussions on the best way to do things that some people might find annoying.

Not necessarily your fault, but do be mindful that many in this trade are not academic but have spent a lot of time learning the trade and can feel threatened when someone who in their mind knows nothing about it challenges their knowledge.

As others have said, there is nothing obviously wrong with the work carried out, but if you call out Gas Safe, then if the work is not to standard then you know, and if it is to standard then Gas Safe will say so. I wouldn't worry about getting people into trouble as I suspect Gas Safe inspects a proportion of its installers' installations anyway, so if he's the real thing, he will get the odd check anyway.

 

[Scott_D]

I haven't read all post but from the pictures it looks like a decent enough install.
Cant the valves be isolated and the body rotated on the TF1?

 

[Riley]

Might just be angles but is the flue pic from a window above

 

[DaveB0360]

Might just be angles but is the flue pic from a window above

Yes it is from the landing window.

 

[Riley]

I think it looked closer than it was. Ignore me

 

[DaveB0360]

I haven't read all post but from the pictures it looks like a decent enough install.
Cant the valves be isolated and the body rotated on the TF1?

I'm shocked that you and others feel this is a decent install frankly, although I appreciate it's hard to get a full impression from the photos.
Question, do others feel it's good practice to make soldered joints without deburring or cleaning the copper because I don't, and I've been soldering for nearly 50 years.
I'm shocked also that with the TF1 being so and well known in the trade & commonly used that you don't know the body must remain vertical, the boss/hub can be re-oriented but that should only be carried out by a recognised tradesman and is less than optimal. There were zero difficulties in fitting it correctly and if the engineer had actually known how to install an anti thermosiphon loop then I wouldn't have had to even mention it, let alone give instructions on how to fashion one. Just like I shouldn't have to question or inspect the work of a trained and licensed professional on fitting a TF1 filter.

 

[DaveB0360]

I think it looked closer than it was. Ignore me

No problem, when viewed from the rear yard, it's leaning noticeably sideways to the right, when viewed from the side view, it's leaning significantly towards the back yard.... Away from the window where I took the photo, he struggled to get the flashing far enough up the roof to get it vertical because of 'nails' so he cut a square section out of the back corner of it to clear the nails. A bodge.

 

[Aire]

I'm going to be honest here, I've googled anti thermosiphon loop and still non the wiser as to what it actually is

I'll also be honest and it sickens me to say but I don't always debur my copper prior to soldering but I do always clean it.

And as for the pictures, as mentioned they don't really give us the whole picture as to what's wrong, we can't see any of the faults you mention so we can't comment, the only thing we can see is the filter, which can be taken off and you can flip the orientation of it, perfectly acceptable to do so, so not sure why you say it's not optimal.

 

[Riley]

I'm shocked that you and others feel this is a decent install frankly, although I appreciate it's hard to get a full impression from the photos.
Question, do others feel it's good practice to make soldered joints without deburring or cleaning the copper because I don't, and I've been soldering for nearly 50 years.
I'm shocked also that with the TF1 being so and well known in the trade & commonly used that you don't know the body must remain vertical, the boss/hub can be re-oriented but that should only be carried out by a recognised tradesman and is less than optimal. There were zero difficulties in fitting it correctly and if the engineer had actually known how to install an anti thermosiphon loop then I wouldn't have had to even mention it, let alone give instructions on how to fashion one. Just like I shouldn't have to question or inspect the work of a trained and licensed professional on fitting a TF1 filter.

Reel it in a bit mate. We are trying to help. For free I might add. Trust us, based on some shockers we see this isn’t anywhere close to the worst. That is not however saying that this is acceptable. Obviously not a confident solderer as there’s no need to use Yorkshire’s where he has. The big thing here is the lack of commissioning documentation which I’d be reporting him for. And also I think my colleague was alluding to the TF1 having it’s attaching body rotated not the cylinder itself so please don’t take us for simpletans. Ps quoting thermosiphons and the like are all very well but are rarely necessary. It’s starting to sound more and more like you have looked over this blokes shoulder throughout to be honest if you did that to me I’d be rushing to get out the door. Furthermore, because you can solder does not make you able to pipesize, or system design, you may be able to but it’s inconsequential you’ve employed this guy to do a job. My advice. Stop worrying, get gas safe in for a free assessment, get put right whatever they pick up and move on. Life is too short. This started off friendly let’s keep it that way eh?

 

[DaveB0360]

I'm going to be honest here, I've googled anti thermosiphon loop and still non the wiser as to what it actually is

I'll also be honest and it sickens me to say but I don't always debur my copper prior to soldering but I do always clean it.

And as for the pictures, as mentioned they don't really give us the whole picture as to what's wrong, we can't see any of the faults you mention so we can't comment, the only thing we can see is the filter, which can be taken off and you can flip the orientation of it, perfectly acceptable to do so, so not sure why you say it's not optimal.

Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.